Investing in moncton from quebec city

Investing in moncton from quebec city

Investor · Saint Nicolas, Québec · Member since 2016 · 53 posts · 20 votes

Hello guys, I am getting more and more interested in investing in Moncton, nb. I live in quebec city but my market does not make much sense if I want to build another income stream from RE. I'm currently house hacking a duplex in quebec city so I know what to expect from my market, but investing in moncton is very different. What do you guys think about this market right now? Vacancy rate is under 5%, which (imo) means rent should be going up in the near future and buying property right now is still affordable. It looks good from an outsider point of view but the closer I look the more I realize the 1% rule there is not enough. There are a lot of expenses, like an investment property's municipal taxe rate is about 3% (1.5% in my market), owner also pays water and sewer (included in the municipal tax of my market). I've asked some current sellers and they both told me the ongoing rate for management is around 6%, which is pretty normal but I sincerely do not trust sellers (even thought they both mentioned the same %) so been using 10%. on top of that the insurances look like they are very expensive as well, a lot of duplexes seems to be around 2000/y. My current insurance on my duplex is 800/y with close to 300k assessment value. 2k insurance on something worth 120k is insane to me. I don't even know how to consider water and sewer as an expense, since it does not exist in my market, from what I read on biggerpockets you can have unit single metered and charge tenants. The market does seem to rent all utilities (even heat) included a lot thought.

When you actually punch the numbers, given my limited knowledge, it looks like most investment rentals go up to 50%+ expenses/revenue ratio quite easily, even 60%+ when the owner pays for heat, am I correct here? It's amazing because even considering this, it still looks interesting, I just wish I could confirm my findings and learn more about this market but since this is in canada, I can't find much.

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Moncton, NB · Member since 2017 · 9 posts · 3 votes
8y

Hi Philippe

I am a newbie investor but I have lived in Moncton my whole life. I am currently house hacking. If I were you I would look at a 4+ unit building. There are some decent ones around $200k. You can get nicer ones around $300k. With such high taxes the 1% rule is not good enough here. But there are deals out there where you can get 1.5% rent of the total purchase price. Insurance on my single family home is $1440 on a 150k assessment. Water on single family homes is about $90 per month. Not sure about Duplexes and up. I don't know if I was able to answer all of your questions but I hope I helped a bit

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  • Moncton, NB · Member since 2017 · 9 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    Hi Philippe

    I am a newbie investor but I have lived in Moncton my whole life. I am currently house hacking. If I were you I would look at a 4+ unit building. There are some decent ones around $200k. You can get nicer ones around $300k. With such high taxes the 1% rule is not good enough here. But there are deals out there where you can get 1.5% rent of the total purchase price. Insurance on my single family home is $1440 on a 150k assessment. Water on single family homes is about $90 per month. Not sure about Duplexes and up. I don't know if I was able to answer all of your questions but I hope I helped a bit

  • Investor · Saint Nicolas, Québec · Member since 2016 · 53 posts · 20 votes
    8y

    Thank you so much. 1.5% seems to be very doable. Did you buy your current property with an agent? My next step is to contact an agent to pull out comps and to figure out the exact numbers/returns. First I am sill trying to convince my partner and open his mind about this. I am going to contact Ricky Cormier, he seems to have decent reviews and is also an investor, if you have any recommendation or reviews considering anyone you know (agent, bank, manager, anyone in the RE industry you think of as honest and hardworking) I would gladly hear them, it has insane value to me right now.

    Do you plan on buying again in the upcoming future?

  • Moncton, NB · Member since 2017 · 9 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    I used a realtor, but I believe he does mostly single family homes. As for property managers, I used to do landscaping work for Ground Floor PM and AI Enterprises. I do not know the rates they charge, but you could start there. I do plan on buying here again in the future and it will most likely be a 4+ unit building.

  • Investor · Saint Nicolas, Québec · Member since 2016 · 53 posts · 20 votes
    8y

    Lets connect.

  • Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 13 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    @Philippe Busque Hi, I am actually thinking about buying a multiplex in Quebec City (e.g., in montcalm).    I am curious why you say that "I live in quebec city but my market does not make much sense if I want to build another income stream from RE." (I searched a little bit. It seems that the cap rate is about 5-7% in Quebec City.)

    Thanks! 

  • Investor · Saint Nicolas, Québec · Member since 2016 · 53 posts · 20 votes
    8y

    Can you give an example of a 7cap in quebec city?

    I have found a quad 6cap off market right now, but it's insanely old (built 1890) and the piping/electricity hasnt been touched in 3 units in the last 40 years... This is actually in Levis thought. Even in the worst area (limoilou/basse ville) I have never seen something over a 6cap. 

    I was getting quaterly reports for every public sale last year (2017) from an investment firm, nothing public was a 6cap. Hell a lot of investors were actually putting ridiculous amount of down payment (some up to 35%, lol) because banks wouldnt finance them otherwise. This market is 100% about wealth keeping, you barely take any risk because it's been so stable since forever but there is barely any upside.

  • Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 13 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    @Philippe Busque   I know little about this market.   It seems that 5 cap is the norm based on what you said. 

    What's your estimate of the cap rate for this one (not in montcalm)?

     https://www.centris.ca/fr/multifamilial~a-vendre~l...

    Assume that the gross income listed is accurate -- $54 636.  Tax is about $10K.  Do I use 50% rule for expenses?  But if I do  heavy renovation  upfront,  I can try to keep the expenses down. 

  • Investor · Saint Nicolas, Québec · Member since 2016 · 53 posts · 20 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Phil D.:

    @Philippe Busque   I know little about this market.   It seems that 5 cap is the norm based on what you said. 

    What's your estimate of the cap rate for this one (not in montcalm)?

     https://www.centris.ca/fr/multifamilial~a-vendre~l...

    Assume that the gross income listed is accurate -- $54 636.  Tax is about $10K.  Do I use 50% rule for expenses?  But if I do  heavy renovation  upfront,  I can try to keep the expenses down. 

     Pretty low honestly. I wouldn't look at this more then 2seconds. They actually tell you it's a 3.9cap here : https://patricemenard.com/uvj0m6/

    ''Système central pour le chauffage et l'eau chaude payé par le propriétaire'' means owner pay the heating and hot water for every units, that's 22% of the owner's income gone and you will need to spend tens of thousands to change it, very bad building for an investor.

    Patrice Menard (which is the agent this is listed with) is the ''biggest'' commercial real estate agent in this area right now. He has a huge network, if something gets on his website, it's not going to be good.

    I just started the coaching program from investisseur immobilier du québec, had the first meeting yesterday, very motivating and is tons of value so I will keep looking in this market, I will invest in moncton eventually to try it out, I want to diversify. Good luck to you

  • Vancouver, British Columbia · Member since 2018 · 7 posts · 1 vote
    8y

    Hey Philippe,

    I'm an investor based in Vancouver and have looked at Moncton as a potential area for a plex diversification play. I'm generally concerned when the price of housing is much too low, there are many single family homes in the xx,xxx range, I'm skeptical as to why a family wouldn't buy. Also, many homes have been on the market for quite some time.

    I feel as if you should rethink the 1% rule investing in Canada. Many of my best holds were not 1%; it's quite difficult to find quality places staying to the rule in Canada. 

    I'm also interested in connecting and hearing any other opinions.

    Regards,

    Jeremy

  • Investor · Saint Nicolas, Québec · Member since 2016 · 53 posts · 20 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jeremy Kuo:

    Hey Philippe,

    I'm an investor based in Vancouver and have looked at Moncton as a potential area for a plex diversification play. I'm generally concerned when the price of housing is much too low, there are many single family homes in the xx,xxx range, I'm skeptical as to why a family wouldn't buy. Also, many homes have been on the market for quite some time.

    I feel as if you should rethink the 1% rule investing in Canada. Many of my best holds were not 1%; it's quite difficult to find quality places staying to the rule in Canada. 

    I'm also interested in connecting and hearing any other opinions.

    Regards,

    Jeremy

     You are right, I don't know enough to add valuable input here. I think the average income is very low (avg 30k/y) but this doesn't explain it. I wish somebody who knows this market could chime in.

    It's def a high risk play - but let's be honest, is the new brunswick province likely to go bankrupt? I don't think so, so Moncton could be great.

  • Vancouver, British Columbia · Member since 2018 · 7 posts · 1 vote
    8y

    I don't think it's high risk, its low risk and low return. NB is very unlikely to appreciate, especially a town like Moncton. The only play I can possibly see is flipping but that's also risky as there are sooooo many properties on sale for so cheap already, not much potential in my opinion.

    I'd like to connect with you though, are you a new investor? I'm looking into other places in Ontario/Atlantic provinces as I feel like I may have too many eggs in one basket in Vancouver.

  • Investor · Saint Nicolas, Québec · Member since 2016 · 53 posts · 20 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jeremy Kuo:

    I don't think it's high risk, its low risk and low return. NB is very unlikely to appreciate, especially a town like Moncton. The only play I can possibly see is flipping but that's also risky as there are sooooo many properties on sale for so cheap already, not much potential in my opinion.

    I'd like to connect with you though, are you a new investor? I'm looking into other places in Ontario/Atlantic provinces as I feel like I may have too many eggs in one basket in Vancouver.

    Edit : Yes I am new, I'm only house hacking a duplex right now. I disagree with low returns, 100$+ a door cashflow with 100% leverage is a rare beast and it seems to be very achievable just looking at the MLS, so private sales could reach double that for all I know. Do you really need appreciation with such CoC returns? Even in my local market appreciation is a ship that has sailed imo. I have 2 very strong leads right now thought, are you a private lender?

  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y

    @Jeremy Kuo, @Philippe Busque

    For a few moments I thought you two were bantering about Saint John as your comments are more in-line with the economic situation of that city than Moncton.

    Moncton, as a city, has good long term prospects.  If you buy well in the proper parts of Moncton, you should see descent returns.

  • Vancouver, British Columbia · Member since 2018 · 7 posts · 1 vote
    8y

    @Roy N. 

    I feel like there's many more opportunities for appreciation and refinance plays or flipping plays in Canada. Cash flow may look nice on paper but many properties need a ton of work but closing costs, out of province investor taxes, property tax. I can't say for sure.

    I'm currently looking at house hacking anywhere other then BC. Really would like to move as well as diversify haha

  • Rental Property Investor · Calgary, AB · Member since 2019 · 9 posts · 4 votes
    7y

    @Philippe Busque, @Jeremy Kuo

    Phillippe / Jeremy, did either of you decide to invest in Moncton?

    I purchased a multifamily property in May 2018, and I am happy with the returns. I am yielding a 13% cash on cash return (~$200/unit), and forecasting a 5yr average ROI of 99% (assuming only 1% appreciation per year). The property taxes are higher if you are out of province, but that can be easily factored into you numbers.

    Moncton's economy is stable and diversified, and the local unemployment rate is consistently less than the national average. Some investors get worried investing in New Brunswick due to the population decreasing over the last census period, but the Moncton CMA actually grew by 4%.

    Happy to connect with anyone wanting to discuss investing in the Maritimes or investing from a distance.

    Brad

  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    @Brad Cote wrote:

    "The property taxes are higher if you are out of province, but that can be easily factored into you numbers."

    Even those of us within the province pay that high property tax, it's not special treatment for those from away ;-)

  • Rental Property Investor · Calgary, AB · Member since 2019 · 9 posts · 4 votes
    7y

    @Roy N.

    Good point Roy, thank you for the correction.  I was thinking of PEI where the non-resident rates are 25-65% higher (combining provincial and municipal portions).

    I suppose this is yet another reason that makes New Brunswick more attractive for investment.  No rent controls, equitable property taxes, and landlord friendly RTA. 

  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    @Brad Cote

    There is a nascent movement afoot here in NB seeking rent control - as a tradeoff for removing some or all of the provincial portion of the property tax from residential rentals.  We'll need to see it it gets legs.

  • New to Real Estate · Halifax, NS · Member since 2019 · 12 posts · 13 votes
    7y

    Hey Guys, Welcome from Halifax!  I am going to have a look at a place tomorrow (Possibly my first deal) that has potential to be quite unique. If anybody is ever interested in doing business in Halifax feel free to connect! 

  • Investor · Saint Nicolas, Québec · Member since 2016 · 53 posts · 20 votes
    7y

    I did not buy in Moncton. I ended up buying in quebec and levis, now up to 9 units.. My best deal is a 6 units where I converted all utilities to the tenants. One thing I've learned is you gotta do what others are not willing to do. Moncton is still in my radar, just like the US. :)

  • Rental Property Investor · Calgary, AB · Member since 2019 · 49 posts · 27 votes
    7y

    We have been actively looking in Moncton for several months, Brad and I ended up coming to same conclusions prior to meeting and found Moncton to be quite attractive. @Philippe Busque how are numbers in QC, what kept you investing there so far? Nice work on the 6-unit btw. Le me know if you are seriously considering the US, we have teams on the ground in a few cities and are happy to bring people into the network as it only increases the collective buying/managing power.

    Ryan

  • Investor · Saint Nicolas, Québec · Member since 2016 · 53 posts · 20 votes
    7y

    I did not invest in moncton because I learned how to get good deals and financing here. I shifted my mindset from cashflow to networth. I also believe investing far from where you live is much riskier, I don't have the bankroll to be taking on much risk right now.

    Investing far away will probably be when I'm just playing with real estate in a few years, not when I'm trying to build wealth. :)

  • Ontario · Member since 2021 · 3 posts · 0 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Philippe Busque:

    I did not buy in Moncton. I ended up buying in quebec and levis, now up to 9 units.. My best deal is a 6 units where I converted all utilities to the tenants. One thing I've learned is you gotta do what others are not willing to do. Moncton is still in my radar, just like the US. :)

     Hi Philippe,

    Hows your peopoerty going in Quebec?

    I would like to know if I want to invest a duplex in Quebec city what price range i should consider?

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