Update: Sent off check today. New contract states that effective Oct 2006 6% will be held from return for the state of Georgia. This makes the return rate 19% in 60 days. I'll keep you posted.
Can anyone venture a guess why Pinnacle would run expensive ads in Newsweek looking for tons of small investors @ $5000 a pop? At a 150% annual return, wouldn't the big boys on Wall Street be knocking themselves over for a killer passive investment like this one? I just don't get it. 800 small investors equals a LOT of logistics/paperwork...
Good point. I guess the "Big Boys" would like a lot more transparency in the model than is being provided. I bet their calculation is that there are enough investors who wouldnt mind risking small amounts for that awesome rate of return...not that it negates the point made, but in the partnership agreement I have, there arent that many folks with just $5K. The highest I think was $116000 but a huge chunk were around $20K.
BTW - 800 small investors: Is this the total no. of investors currently?
With regards to those Newsweek ads, can anyone with money take out an ad? What, if any auditing should we expect off Newsweek?
BigGQ: Goodluck...welcome to the club...of folks still wondering how the devil does work this while nervously waiting to collecting the next return...:)
You're probably right, MTH. BTW, why exactly did your attorney recommend forming an LLC? How much did he/she invest?
I started this thread because I figured if anyone got burnt by Pinnacle they'd Google their way to this Forum lickety split. I received my first return last week. Like you I plan on pulling out my original investment after 8 months. Lately I have this increasing urge to plop down 100K as it appears as though everybody is getting paid on time currently. In the partnership agreement I received I would say that most investors were in the $10,000 range which makes me hesitant to up the ante so much. On the other hand, I think we can all agree that as time goes by the risk probably becomes greater so maybe it makes sense to start high early. One fellow I called from their reference list said he invested the full $250,000 limit with no problems.
One of the advisors told me they currently have over 800 investors... I wish I had the time to fly down there and see for myself what's going on.
Have any of you done that? What did you learn?
DLV: The reason for the LLC - actually a C corp is to limit the liability to the assets of the LLC. Pinnacle and you are in a partnership and not an LLC. The leaves you open to liability beyond your share of the partnership. The explanation from Pinnacle is, this way it is easier to dissolve the partnership once evey 60 days as opposed to an LLC.
My lawyer has north of $25K. But the guy who referred me has north of $200K and that was more than 6 months ago. He has his 100% and some back. They have been to Atlanta about 4 times so far and have done so at Pinnacle's expense. They have met Gene a couple of times and his associates as well. And they still are trying to make sense of this model !!! You were right on the support required. They are growing so fast that at this stage the fellow I started with now has 2 assistants...and most of these new guys, while good and prompt at the cookie cutter part, are pretty bad at explaining the stuff...i guess they are so swamped they dont need to...
$100K??? Well, you are braver soul than I am.
Some paranoid moderator over at The Creative Investor website keeps locking the forums on Pinnacle. He believes everyone posting (both positive & negative) on them is a "plant"!!
Does anyone know of any other forums currently discussing this company? I'm trying to do my due diligence as best I can. Thanks.
Hi there I am an investor with Pinnacle since April of this year they have always given me my return but I got a phone call stating that any investements after Sept ist will be returned since the new projects will not have enough profit margins did any one hear anything like this? They also want to FRanchise in cities like Troy, Michigan and Chicago. A letter is going out sometime this week, they are also not allowing any new investors. Can someone share any info on these items. :violin:
Thanks ACA
Does anyone know of any other forums currently discussing this company? I'm trying to do my due diligence as best I can. Thanks.
I have never invested in Pinnacle so I will not speak about them specifically. However, I am knowledgable about accounting and legal issues and here are a few things that every investor should know:
1. Financial statements can be doctored up pretty easily. Ideally you want to look at financial statements that are "audited" (and it has to have a clean audit from a reputable firm). For smaller companies they might provide you with "reviews" or "compilations" which are good, but not as good as audited statements. An ad in Newsweek means absolutely nothing about how credible (or not credible) the financial statements are.
2. If a company claims that it has 800+ investors then they are subject to SEC rules and regulations. This is especially true if they are taking investments from people nationwide that have no management over the business. So you could ask your local SEC enforcement agency for more information.
3. Companies must be registered to do business in (at a minimum) the state where they operate. So you can also check with the Georgia Secretary of State to find the articles of incorporation, etc. that tell you about the business.
4. Talk to the better business bureau of Georgia and ask about negative inquiries against Pinnacle.
5. Understand the type of investment you are making. If it is a partnership (!) then you might be in for some unexpected surprises if one of the partners screws up. So if Pinnacle (or you) do something illegal then the entire money invested in the partnership is at risk. Also realize that $20K might not sound like a lot, but $20K * 800 partners = $16 million dollars.
6. If a company is really creating partnerships as they claim then they must file partnership returns with the IRS. Ask them for copies of their returns and see if they are really as profitable as they claim.
Again, I know nothing about Pinnacle. But a dishonest person trying to screw someone over would make sure they created partnerships with as many uninformed investors as they possibly could. They would show unaudited financial statements and promise huge returns. They would refuse to show you IRS returns (possibly because they have never filed returns). They would try to get as many people as possible to make huge investments up front. They would also try to do business without registering with any legal authorities in the hopes that they could pull in as much money as possible before they got caught.
The readers of this forum are smart and (now?) they're educated. The choice is up to each person...
If someone wants to send some detailed information to me I will be happy to give my opinion on whether Pinnacle is legit or not.
I have actually been torn about whether or not to lock the topic myself. I do believe that there are a few plants here, but at the same time, I think the discussion has gone well, and it is important that people continue to question the company.
That said, I've checked BBB, and there are no complaints -- however, that doesn't mean that this company is totally legit. Without actually seeing any paperwork or digging further, I cannot make any determinations.
I ask all members and non-members to heed extreme caution when looking into Pinnacle or any other investment. Make sure you do your homework, and most importantly, if you have any shread of doubt, use your attorney. Actually, I recommend you use an attorney for any deals you make.
I will keep this thread open for now . . .
I have a very close friend who invested $5k in Pinnacle several months back and he received his check as promised. He immediately sent the new amount back to them and started over again. I asked him to come on here and comment when he was done and he must have forgotten. Be looking for mblaff. He's the only person I know who has done this and made money at it.
I'm calling him now to tell him to get on here and comment.
I checked Pinnacle out by calling their references they provided, calling the BBB in Atlanta, and researching the principals of the company..mainly Gene O'neal and felt comfortable investing with them at that point. On June 27th I wired $5k from my bank account to theirs and exactly 60 days from that date I had them wire $6250 back into my account. A week later I wired them another $5k and I am waiting for this 60 day return again. The project they used my money for was a development called "Old Alabama at Cardell". The only complaint I have against Pinnacle is that they are slow with their paperwork. They promised a parnership agreement to be sent to me within 2 weeks of the date I signed a short form agreement and sent my money...it took them 54 days to get the PA to me. Also they promised to put me on the deed to the property and I have still not recieved a copy of the deed I was supposedly on. This does make me a little uncomfortable, but obviously not so uncomfortable that I wouldn't do it again. They did give me the return that was promised on the day it was promised. If anyone wants to see the documents that I have to show that I really did it contact me at [email protected] I can fax or email them to you.
Mike
Hi, This is my first time on this board. I've found all the comments about Pinnacle very interesting. I've been investing with Pinnacle since Dec. 2005 and have nothing bad to say about them. My returns have always been on time to the exact date. I've rolled over my interest into new contracts as well and my principle is building nicely. I have 3 contract going with them, and have never had any problems what so ever. They also pay $500 referral fees to current investors who do the promoting on their behalf. I've received 7 referral fees in check form by 2nd day Fed Ex to my door.
Pinnacle is listed with the Atlanta Chamber of Commerce, The BBB of Atlanta, and a Dunn and Bradstreet report on them has been favorable.
I've also personally visited their offices in Buckhead and met all of the employees. If your a current investor they will pick you up at the airport in a beautiful stretch limo and pay for an overnight stay at the JW Marriott. Then spend 1-2 hours with you at their facility explaining the company and introducing you to the employees.
I am not a plant.....just a satisfied investor. I know somewhere down the road their payouts might change...anything can happen. For now, I'm investing with my eyes wide open and am willing to take the risks. It's not much different than playing the stock market and possibly losing $ there too.
Hi there I am also a very satisfied customer of pinnacle and have recieved a letter pertaining to Pinnacle Consulting Group a new arm of the company that will help investors duplicate what they are doiing buy setting up a division in certain cities and buy and sell foreclosures an enybody shed some new light on this.
I also heard that no new investments in Atlanta division after Sept 1st..what will happen to all us old investors where do we put our money
Yeah...me too. I spoke with them and i am not getting a consistent answer from them yet. My understanding is,
1. Pinnacle Development will become part of Pinnacle consulting as of March 2007;
2. All accounts then will be closed and monies returned.
3. if you are an existing account holder, they will continue to roll your returns till March. I am not clear if they will let you add more to your account;
4. Not clear if they are accepting new investors. I was told it will be "business as usual till March"...which is conflicting with other sources here.
I got their newsletter too - a fairly amateurish job. They want to push their "consulting" - actually a franchise for which you pay $150K. They expect you will replicate their success in your town and project a profit of atleast $1 mil/year. "Project" is the operative word. This certainly is not my cup of tea...
Appreciate the moderators 6 points of caution...realized I overlooked 3 of them. Thx.
Pinnacle investors. What is the tax situation with the 25% return? Is it income or capital gains. Does it make a differecne taxwise if you roll it to the next investment or take out and reinvest. Just curious.
This thread has frustrated me enough to actually register and make a post.
To anyone who is actually considering investing in this company – it is most clearly a fraud. You don’t need to check the better business bureau to realize that. Consider the obvious:
- No reputable investment firm is going to guarantee any profits. Absolutely none.
- An affiliate of Pinnacle is purchasing the properties for sale by Pinnacle. This should be enough right here to warrant and SEC investigation.
- The new investors are paying the old investors??? Can it be any more obvious.
The recent posters above this post are clearly posting just to promote Pinnacle. I wouldn’t be surprised one bit if they were actual employees of the firm.
This is the clearest, blatant form of fraud you can get. Guaranteed Pinnacle will be under investigation by the SEC or FBI within a month or two. Guaranteed.
Guy, please – see the facts!
Wow, calm down, tms. I can't speak for the validity of Pinnacle, other than what mblaff experienced, but he's a good friend, lives down the street from me here in Indianapolis and I've been talking to him the whole way through the process. He even offered to share the docs with anyone who asked for them. He doesn't work for Pinnacle, have any affiliation with them or any of the stuff you're accusing him of other than he paid and got paid. End of story.
Whether the others who are talking on here or not are valid, I have no idea. BUT, he is.
I'm not saying there isn't something screwy going on with them, but am not going to be falsely accused by somebody who has no credibility on this forum. Don't make accusations until you know facts.
I posted the facts.
I don’t need to see subscription agreements – they can promise you the moon. But the facts I stated above clearly point to fraud. It’s good that you have a friend posting on this board, but I’m saying that you’re invested in a fraudulent activity.
I currently run a private investment partnership; I know this stuff.
I already said that I can't speak for Pinnacle because I'm not investing with them or connected to them, but am saying that I've seen his profits and he's offering to show them to anyone else and has NO connection to Pinnacle other than his investment. You never checked with him.
You said, "the recent posters above this post are clearly posting just to promote Pinnacle" and I know that for one of them it's not true. So, as I said before, don't say something that you don't know is fact. That was the only point I argued and the only one I have any interest in making.
He made money from his investment, plain and simple. As for the rest of it, you may be right.
Today's WSJ reports that the California Dept of Corporations has opened an investigation into Pinnacle. I have been considering an investment in Pinnacle and am awaiting a partnership agreement - I would not send money in without knowing which property I was investing in. Have not received it yet, but this news will certainly slow me down.
Interesting that in the WSJ article, two investors quoted as satisfied were two of the five names given to me as references, both of whom I talked to and both of whom were satisfied. It seems that Pinnacle has a very short list of approved references.
I am on hold now, but it is looking more and more like a sham.