Just joined, but I've been following these posts since we got Pinned.
Two questions for any of you: does anyone think we are we likely to get our principals, or any portion of them, back within the year? And are most investors aware of Hays' form and of berkeleyguy's list?
It is not easy to find these posts through search engines; I was led here by another investor. I have the feeling there could be hundreds of investors out there who don't know WHAT'S going on, because there's certainly no information on Pinnacle's site. I went nuts myself when their emails bounced back and the phone was not answered. I wonder how others of us could be located and informed.
Hays says that "investor information is not available" to them now. Does anyone else wonder why not?
Actually I did not invest in pinnacle, but I have invested in a company who is drilling for oil in Kentucky, but these guys are SEC Compliant and have real credentials to back up their claims. The number that you listed is to the company that I am invested in but they are no Pinnacle, If you have doubts I understand, especally considering what has happend with your last investment. If you would like speak to me about my investment send me a reply thanks.
Hi Everyone,
Today I received yet another call from a news reporter asking me if I knew anything about the real estate agent who's listed on most of the Pinnacle deals. Here name is Dana Ashe and supposingly not only is she the realtor on the deals but she is also Pinnacle's founder Gene O'neal live in fiance. The reporter stated that he's looking into her background as well because she might be another source for the civil suits were most likely going to have to file in order to get Mr. Oneal's assets liquidated. He also stated that she was head of development at Pinnacle and was the one who was responsible for the lack of insurance on all the properties. I saw the posting at hays about the insurance dilemna, did anyone else read it? Is it possible she could be apart of the suit as well but just being overlooked at the time?
Don't know about Dana Ashe, but I do know that Pamela Walker(Pinnacle Financial Advisor) should be sued. This woman convinced so many people that Pinnacle was legit. Also, the BBB who initially endorsed Pinnacle's business. Last but not least, the chamber of commerce.
Pam convinced me as well. I trusted her and believed she was a truthful person.
We should compile a list of everyone who could be involved and submit the names to the receiver at Hays. Eventually, some of us will want to seek damages and won't know where to start . Let's compile this list while it's fresh on our minds. There's no telling how long this process is going to last. It's a shame so many lived the high life off of what's considered life savings for most of us. It makes me sick to my stomach. I had just invested $150,000 and never collected one cent. Now, I fear I will never get my principle back. So, I am one of the ones who want to pursue this in a civil court of law eventually.
I'm assuming that space on the claim form is for listing the financial advisors we worked with. That's the way I filled it out anyway. I listed the primary people I worked with, Chris Schaefer and Nick Rogge.
Since this whole ordeal has been exposed, I have heard nothing of criminal charges. At this time everything is civil. If there is no chance of going to jail, no one will talk.
I would love to see they day when they all start rolling over on each other to avoid or limit their prison sentence. :goofy:
I happen to know for a fact that Mr. Kunkel is a good, decent, kind man who believes the best in everyone. He's nice on the phone to people because that's who he is. In my opinion, he was scammed by Gene O'Neal just like everyone else. It only takes one VERY VERY bad person to try and ruin your life's work, and that person is Gene O'Neal.
Don't forget anyone who invested in the beginning of the program, and took their returns and referal fees made a money off of everyone who lost in the end, the receiver should look into which investors made back more than their principal and make them return that money to the pot.
Anyone who's benefitted from our investments should not only go to jail but should loose everything that they have.
Mr. Kunkel is a very nice man. He didn't make ANY of us invest, we did that on our own with the help of the Pinnacle staff. I don't think he would "knowingly" risk his license over a few dollars. Think about it people.
I would like to know if Mr. Oneal and his executives personal assets have been frozen. They should not enjoy fruit while have nothing but scrappings.
Does anyone know if both Pinnacle and the staff members personal assets have been frozen?
Do any of you see ANYONE going to jail over this?
Oh and by the way, I received a call from Mr. Darius Lee today. You guys shouldn't ignore his calls, he has a mouth full. Now that's not to say you should invest with him or anyone else at this time. But he's open about why he left Pinnacle and he enlightened me about several other things.
This is to BigMan and others. Listen you guys, thanks for the private messages but honestly it's information EVERYONE needs to know. I've gotten several emails stating that Mr. Oneal's live in "girlfriend" as some of you put it, WAS IN ON EVERYTHING! If this is the case guys, make your posting public. The receiver reads this forum and hopefully it will encourage to follow up on things as well. Now some of you stated you got this info first hand from employees both present and past. If so, email the receiver with this information. It might help us re-coupe some of our losses and put pressure on some of them to tell the truth. Thanks for your private responses though. Not trying to put you on blast, it's just that others need to know too. We're ONE, remember that!
we are compiling a list of investors on a spread sheet for future possible civil class action after the SEC is finished. REMY started and I'm continuing.
If you haven't done so already please email (Name, email address, tel # )to:
I'm receiving many emails...keep them coming. Please have patience with me as I'm inputing them slowly but surely and will send out periodic updates to all on the list....Thank you.
Please excuse this post as I am sure it is going to upset some people. I have been reading this forum topic nightly since page 3. (I just joined today) I am amazed with everything that has transpired on this forum. From the cheerleaders in the beginning to the lynch mob mentality currently riding high, this entire Pinnacle mess is unbelievable.
For me personally, it has zero impact as I never heard of Pinnacle until I saw the Newsweek ads either. I never invested, although I did try to get their paperwork, because I wanted to see what they were doing, especially if it was something I could read and learn. You see, I have a real estate firm (please don't ask as I am not looking for investors from this forum or website) that does well for me and my investors, but nothing like the claim in the ad. I was trying to do research because my investors were wondering why I could not give them "Pinnacle type" returns.
My heart goes out to any investor which lost money in this endeavor. No matter how much, it is a shame, and unfortunately, a matter that will take a while to unravel. However, here is my question to this forum:
As a businessman who has built a firm investing in real estate for myself and my investors over the last decade, I do not understand what it is that makes people choose one firm over another. Generally speaking, our investors have received 7 to 34 ANNUALIZED depending on the overall market, the interest rate environment, cost containment and even a liitle luck. And I am always aware that past performance does not guarantee future results, so we work damn hard for our company, and hence, our investors. But we speak to so many people and so many of them pass on the opportunity even though every project is fully secured with the underlying property. The only thing we cannot offer is liquidity, and the only thing we will not offer, is a guarantee. (We can promise we will do our best)
What magic did the Pinnacle people use to get you to send them money. Was it simply the high rate? Nice brochures? Telling you what you wanted to hear? What? I ask this because I am trying to learn if I can use some of their magic but package it to promote legal real estate transactions. We are always registered where we need to be. Our investors always hold the first mortgage on the properties. We do everything right EXCEPT dazzle people to give us the money as easily as the Pinnacle group did.
2000 investors!!! What growth! Every businessman should be impressed with those numbers, I just don't know how it is always the "alleged crooks" that get it. (Of course, no true businessman would care for the end result)
In closing, I am sorry if this upsets anybody, but I would like to learn.
Mr. Moneypoint,
I'm answering your question about Pinnacle's methods of persuasion.
Their advertising, especially the full color ad in Newsweek, was effective. I've worked in magazine advertising and know how costly such ads are. Their logline: Stocks Still Too Low? caught my attention. In their ads, on their own web site, they presented themselves as a reputable investment alternative, invoking such agencies as the BBB and Atlanta Chamber of Commerce. I also learned that they worked with Wachovia Bank.
Altogether, they seemed far from shabby! These were not three guys in a garage, operating from cell phones and spamming people over email. I thought they were being smart about the foreclosures market in Atlanta. I thought they preferred investors to bank sponsorship because they could act more quickly. I also thought: if they’re frauds, why would they be advertising in plain daylight, in the Wall Street Journal and Newsweek? And there was absolutely no dirt on them online until about a month ago.
Last, the return rate lured me. I figured it would not last, because the housing market was in decline. So I thought I would catch the tail end of a hot opportunity. Other investors verified my hunches, and spoke with enthusiasm about their returns.
I hope this has been helpful to you. In theory, Pinnacle had a lot to offer; if it had NOT been rotten at the core it would have represented a very powerful business model, based on a win/win strategy, good faith and innovation. If someone out there did this correctly and lawfully, they too would grow their investment community to 2000 strong in a year.
I echo Anonyc's comments above. However, when I first saw the ad in Newsweek, my first thought was that some fly by night company was trying to pull something.. Put up the money for the ad to lure people in. But when I checked into their background, they checked out as a reputable company that had been in good standing with the BBB for 8 years. Fly by night companies don't tend to have 8 years good standing with BBB. Maybe a year or two, but not eight. If they had been pulling a scam for that long, you would expect complaints that would affect their rating, etc..
If they had a direct line to the bank for repos and if in fact they had customers ready to buy for $135K, the model made sense. They would have made more money quicker by doing the deals 50% "partners" without having to wait for approvals and inspections through banks, etc. Based on their numbers (which seemed reasonable), they would make more money than the investor on each transaction and increase their holdings exponenially. Especially if they were rolling over as 1031... Based on their numbers, the typical profit would be $44K on an SFR and $12K would be paid out to investors as their 25%. Even if the profit was only $36K, they would profit $24K to the investor's $12K. That answered my first question of "How is this venture worthwhile to Pinnacle?" If they're not making money, it doesn't make sense. I also figured that this might be a short term plan to get investors in the door and then would push more towards long term investments. If the model was legitimate, there would be a cap at some point where they couldn't take any more investors.
Also, Atlanta seemed to be the right place for this type of business since 75% can afford homes. The money was "guaranteed" with your name on the deed - not supposed to be a loan. Lastly, if they were a company who had decided to go dirty, WHY would you advertise in publications that were there for all agencies and watchdogs to see? It still blows me away that they thought that they were going to get away with it. I doubt that they've been dirty for the past 8 years and just pulled the wool over everyone's eye's... It sounds more like somewhere along the line, their business morphed into this scheme. Who knows how it ended up that way.
In ref. to Moneypoint's observations of Pinnacle investor base of 2000; - Steady reliable performance history of returns produced “word of mouth” advertisements w/investors recommending family & friends. I personally had Pinn send out Brochures to family & co-workers noting that they were in good standing with BBB; GA Chamber of Commerce & had the backing of the WSJ. The sincerity & “believability” of my advisors also won me over. They were not “hard sell” but struck me as being very kind hearted people. They really had a smooth operation going, were it not for one bad apple - the CFO - who knew.
In the end, I lost $$ like everyone else - & now in the process of rebuilding thru wiser investing. I appreciate what someone posted earlier about “failing forward.” This has been a learning experience, and my heart really goes out to everyone who was burned by this fiasco.
Guys, I truly appreciate your candor in letting me in on your mindset when you were researching Pinnacle. The strange part of this whole episode is that we were considering placing a much smaller ad in national publications to direct people to our company AND we were in negotiations with two property manangement firms to rent space for our office in Atlanta, as an expansion city. When we saw the Pinnacle ad, we were blown out of the water, for obviously three reasons. 1- They stole our thunder by placing a much larger ad in a national pub, 2- The rate of return was higher than any of our programs had ever been (made us feel like we must be working hard and stupid); and 3- They were already in Atlanta and we didn't want to seem to be a "copycat".
As far as the comment concerning growing 2000 investors using great business practices; I don't believe in can be done. I think 9 - 12 - 15% is not enough to catch the eye of normal people. I say this because we have tried for a number of years using a no pressure methodology and we have a high success rate for the people that actually call us, but I can't see the day where I would get an influx of 1000 - 2000 new investors in a few months. (However, we were hoping that our ad would increase call traffic and, hence, our new investors, but never could we imagine the growth Pinnacle had)
Next, this is to the comments on BBB, bank references, etc. for methods to check up on a company. Most of these organizations are financed by the people that they report. You buy your membership into the BBB based upon employees, gross sales or the type of business you are, depending on what part of the country you are in. So when I tell people that we are members of the BBB, the only thing that really tells you is that I have paid a fee to say I am a member of the BBB. But just by saying I am a member, it lulls a lot of people into a false sense of security. Even by asking about complaints doesn't really mean anything in a non-consumer arena, because most people that have complaints anymore, do not call to complain and if they do, there is a procedure to rectify the situation and not have any bad marks on the company's file.
My Dun and Bradstreet account was set up by our firm paying $500 +/-. A bank reference is worthless becasue of privacy laws.( and guess who will get sued if they say the wrong thing.) Chamber of Commerce is like the BBB. Etc., etc., etc.
As a reference point, credit bureaus are suppose to be properly reporting personal credit. However, a recent study says 1 in 3 reports have a major error in them. 4 in 5 have a reporting error in them. Why would their information be worth anything with that many errors? But that doesn't change the banks opinion on using them. Oh, as a sidenote, in my personal Experian file, I am deceased.
What I am trying to say is that even if you use the best traditional checking, you are still flying blind. Newsweek doesn't owe a fiduciary responsibility to its readers. It's just an ad. They owe a higher duty to their stories which they have to make sure are printed "without malice". If they make a mistake, thet can just decide to say "I'm sorry" and/or print a retraction.
Lastly, at which point do the actual investors owe a duty to themselves to tiptoe into the water. I can see a number of people losing $5,000 to $25,000 because of Pinnacle's reported minimum investment; but why would someone write a check for 6 digits and sometimes even without any paperwork?
In closing, I hope the comments keep coming because I have already got a new sense of understanding from the frst two responses. But answer me this, and be honest: "Wouldn't you have just passed right by our firm also if we were only offering 12%?".