Help - First time landlord dealing with high maintenance tenants

Help - First time landlord dealing with high maintenance tenants

Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2017 · 43 posts · 12 votes

We rented our house out for the first time ever starting last November.  The tenants seemed good on paper and wanted to sign an 18 month lease which we thought was great to have it rented for so long.  We had a water softener in the house, but it broke and we intended to remove it from the property before renting it and did not disclose it as coming with the house. After the tenants agreed to the contract, but before moving in they decided to have their realtor make sure that we would maintain the water softener.  We thought it was strange that they randomly decided to mention that one thing and we were going to fight it and tell them that the softener does not come with the house, but at the advice of our realtor we went ahead and replaced it to get things started off on the right foot.  During the move in inspection, they  were unhappy with some of the walls had chipped paint (result of taking things off the walls when we moved out) and demanded that we repaint them.  Some walls had very minor defects and some moderate.  I initially said we would only paint the ones with moderate scuff marks but they pushed back, demanding that all the walls with marks on them be painted which amounted to a $700 job. Again, being inexperienced and not wanting to start a fight before they even moved in, we did it.  After they moved in, they wanted to heat the pool but the pool heater wasn't working.  We didn't know this because we never used the heater when we lived there and it was our mistake to not check it out before renting the property.  We got a quote of over $3000 to fix it, so we basically told the tenants we couldn't do it.  They threw a fit and claimed that the single reason they chose our house over other houses was because of the heated pool (sure...).  They wanted to renegotiate the lease to pay less per month, but we didn't want that so we decided to find a way to fix it and ended up driving to another city to buy a used heater in good condition and had our pool contractor install it.  Last week the regular weekly pool service that we pay for (since we want to keep our pool equipment in good condition!) showed up on a day when the tenant's weren't expecting them.  Their gate was locked so the pool technician rang the doorbell to ask for access to the backyard.  The tenant came unhinged and yelled at him for disturbing them when he wasn't supposed to be there.  (I later talked to the pool company owner who said that he personally had informed the tenants of the change in service day).  The tenant called me and told me what a major inconvenience  it was and said she would even consider just taking care of the pool themselves which we won't allow as we want a professional watching over our pool.  We suspect they were doing that to try to get rid of the pool service and then ask for a rent reduction.  Now this week we had our landscaper come to trim some very tall trees on the property that we had agreed with the tenants that we would take care of it.  The landscaper trimmed the trees on Tuesday and the tenant texted me pictures of the trees after saying how nice they looked.  Then on Wednesday the landscaper called us saying that the tenants had called him back to the house to make the bottoms and tops of the trees perfectly horizontal.  He trimmed the bottoms but refused to do the tops as it was too time consuming and dangerous.  She told him ok, but that next time he better make them even.  We are beside our selves with what to do with these people.  It's one thing after another and we are afraid it will just keep escalating with them finding something every month or so to complain about and try to get something out of us.  Not really sure what to do at this point. We want to send an email laying down the law with them but we are also afraid to make them too mad in case they start to trash our property or find some other way to make our lives miserable.  Any advice on how to deal with people like this?  We can't wait for the next 13 months to go by to get rid of them!!  TIA!

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
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Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
9y

Your first mistake was to let them dictate the condition of the home. You should have held your ground on the water softener and the paint. You let them push you around so they're going to keep trying until you put your foot down or get rid of them.

I would give them written notice that you will not continue upgrading the home. They can either accept it or give notice and find another place to live.

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  • Johnson City, TN · Member since 2014 · 586 posts · 705 votes
    9y

    Tell them if they don't like it to move!

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    9y

    Your first mistake was to let them dictate the condition of the home. You should have held your ground on the water softener and the paint. You let them push you around so they're going to keep trying until you put your foot down or get rid of them.

    I would give them written notice that you will not continue upgrading the home. They can either accept it or give notice and find another place to live.

    The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews
  • Investor · Bethel, AK · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 852 votes
    9y
    Dana Holland I'm not trying to be mean here but here's what I see. Your post reads tenant said. We agreed. Tenant said. We agreed. Tenant said. We agreed. Do you see the pattern?? I don't know another better example of a reason to get a pm. You've already spent way more than one would cost you. Put that pm between you and the tenants and do not have contact with them. When they want something have the pm say NO. If it's not in the contract the answer is no. These tenants have already been trained by another landlord to be this way. If they ask for a rent reduction have your pm say no. If you keep giving in these guys will be professional tenants. A good screening should have caught them. Before you try to self manage Learn how to do it on here and learn from a PM. That's lesson 1. Lesson 2. Never sign a lease for more than a year. And I hate to do that long. You want to be month to month do you see why?? If you don't get a pm your gonna need to toughen up. Start doing some inspections. Get to know your lease and the landlord tenant laws in your state. When you do these inspections, every couple months or every 3 months or whatever look for some reason to get them out. U probably won't find one. If they are ever late with rent evict. It's unfortunate but you are going to have a rough road until these guys are gone. The softer you are the worse that road will be. Lesson 3. If your realtor doesn't do rentals or have rentals or invest in rentals don't take advice take from him on these things. Realtors sell property and PM's have real estate license's but the two jobs are very different. Don't take investment advice from him unless he invests. If you think he's right about something other than buying or selling a house than verify it before you move forward. REI rule number 1. Trust but verify! RR
  • Investor · Bethel, AK · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 852 votes
    9y
    Dana Holland Just had a thought. Check your tenant laws or a lawyer about this first though. If they ask you for lower rent or anything else that would require a change in the contract agree to it!! And then tell them nicely that as long as your lawyer is preparing an addendum that you would like to go ahead and change it to month to month terms at the same time. That should stop them from that lower rent thought process. If they were month to month and complained to much you can simply give them notice according to what ever is lined out in the lease. Stand tough tho about how much lower you go and you have to have that m2m term in there. It's worth a shot or consideration at least. RR
  • Forney, TX · Member since 2013 · 119 posts · 101 votes
    9y

    Dana I see you are new to this site so get very familiar with bigger pockets.  This is a great site for advice.  I am certain that if you search on this site an issue you are having then I bet some else has had it and asked the questions and gotten answers.

    Is the Phoenix market soft? How many calls/showings did you have for this home?  

    Sounds like you could have weeded them out from the start, but now your stuck.  Listen to what the folks said above my post, they have great advice.  @Ralph R. has given you an out if you they try and change the terms.  If you post a home for rent you should have already figured out what you are willing to repair/replace, do not let tenants make you jump through hoops for their satisfaction.  Their satisfaction will be short lived, then they are on to the next problem with you and your home (see the loop).  

    Also if the tenants have a problem with you trying to repair an issue, make note that you tried to fix it and move on.  This is a good way for you to loose your contractors. Get to know your state property code.  On my leases I or my representative can enter my homes during normal business hours.  This means that I may repair or replace anything I deem necessary especially if I have agreed with the tenants to fix something.  

    In this business you must be firm.  I cannot stress enough how important it is that this is YOUR house and YOU rent it as YOU like, do NOT let the tenants dictate what you are to do with it!!  Never let tenants demand anything from you!  

    Good luck and hang with it this will get easier how to deal with tenants.  Also you will make plenty of money while land lording.

  • Rental Property Investor · Boston, Massachusetts (MA) · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    Good advice in the above posts that they have seized control of this relationship in an unhealthy way and you need to take it back. Some of your actions set the stage for this though, and it may be worth looking at your actions to help avoid these situations in the future.

    1) you showed them an apt. in one condition--when they came back after your move out you had created new damage ("chipped paint from taking things off"/"moderate scuff marks". They mentioned this at the inspection. If they had done this you would have used their security deposit to fix, yes?

    2) they rented a house with a water softener ("we intended to move it") and checked to make sure it worked and was staying--it wasn't but that wasn't mentioned to them

    3) they rented a house with a heated pool, learned the heater didn't work and asked you to deliver what you promised. 

    4) you say "we want to keep our equipment in good condition" and use a regular pool service--but you haven't kept it in good condition (the heater didn't work and you didn't know it) and regular maintenance is a  minimum standard of professionalism, not an above and beyond thing 

    Now, I'm not saying they ARE reasonable or that you are the bad guy, but part of what set the stage for this is you not delivering the product you promised, then being irritated at the tenants for asking for what they were promised.

    Flip this around to their position for a second: 

    they show up, there's noticeable damage that wasn't there before, lots of stuff they thought worked didn't, landlord argues about making it right and seems not to think it matters, contractors don't seem to respect them or their time (why do you believe the owner not them by the way?), landscaping work is shoddy and unprofessional and repairs, if done, are done on the cheap at the landlords convenience, nothing indicates its going to change...fine, we better make sure we stick up for ourselves or he will take advantage of us on everything.

    I mediate in housing cases and see the magistrates work through stuff like this. You might be surprised about their view of the situation...

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Get the pool company a key for the gate if possible they can service on schedule that will work as per weather permits. So the tenant is not involved. 

    The rest sounds like minor PITA stuff. Pool heater should have been operable. and walls were perfect at move in so should be at move out. 

    Let there calls go to voice mail sort out the request and then reply. Anyone that does work for you on the property reports to YOU.. ONLY.. no additional work unless authorized by you.

    Keep it simple and sounds like they are paying which is good. Some tenants are more demanding than others and the water softner was smart to replace it helps protect you plumbing from calcium deposits and honestly is something that's usually included in a SFH rental.

    YOur doing good, you don't need the extra costs of a PM. Just voice mail or text or emails and respond after you've had time to formulate a proper response. 

  • Mike CumbieBusiness Member
    REALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    Your lease is going to dictate. I am assuming that your tree service is not subject to tenants approval of "horizontalness" of the shrubbery. I will also assume you have access granted for the pool maintenance written in. That being said if you mentioned heated pool and water softener and the walls looked different they were your responsibility. But it should be as is where is at this point.

    If you are worried of them trashing the place then you need to step back and look at it as business. You do not need to worry about any further "cosmetic items". They took possession of the property. You got some good advice above. You can do this and do as @Deanna McCormick says. Let their messages go to voicemail and review before responding. If they just call and say "Call me". Then call, listen to what they say and reply with "Let me look into that and I will let you know".

    Good luck!

  • Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2013 · 167 posts · 127 votes
    9y

    I just sent you a local attorney who may have some suggestions, good luck.

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y

    @Dana Holland

    Your tenants are arrogant, overly entitled A-holes. No real surprise there but you have compounded the problem by rewarding their behaviour. Unfortunately the tenant is not the problem,...you are as a unqualified landlord. My guess is you have probably not taken the time to learn your state landlord tenant regulations either.

    My advice is to sell the property or get on the steep learning curve of dealing with tenants in this business. Obviously you have made every newbie mistake possible from before they even moved in. First mistake was not having your tenants on a M2M lease.

    Hobby landlords that sign term leases put their tenant in charge of their property. 

    You have one option to save the situation....learn that NO is always the best response to all tenant requests.  Every time they ask for anything in the future or demand/request/complain your immediate response after NO should always be "we will be happy to release you from your lease".  

    Find a reason to get rid of these tenants or motivate them to leave then sell the property. It is not worth the hassles and stress if you are not cut out to be a landlord. This is a tough business that eats up "weak landlords". Get tough or get out.

  • Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2015 · 31 posts · 15 votes
    9y

    Check your state laws on retaliation by landlords. In MN where I am, you are presumed to be retaliating if you give them notice of non-renewal within 90 days of a repair request from the tenant. MN is very tenant friendly so your jurisdiction might be different.

  • Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2017 · 43 posts · 12 votes
    9y

    @Ralph R. No worries about sounding mean.  I kinda knew I had made several mistakes and needed to hear someone give me some tough love :). Thank you so much for the suggestion. I'm going to check out my local laws and see if the month to month addendum.  That sounds like a great idea if they keep pushing back on the rent!  Thanks again

  • Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2017 · 43 posts · 12 votes
    9y

    @Joseph M.  Very good advice and very interesting since my tenants moved from MN where they were tenants for many many years.   Interesting to know that MN is very tenant friendly.  I'm not really sure if AZ is more tenant or landlord friendly but I'm definitely going to do some research now!  Anything else I should know about MN laws that could clue me in to what they may think they are entitled to?

  • Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2015 · 31 posts · 15 votes
    9y

    Hi Dana - I'd check out this website specifically. https://homelinemn.org/. It's a non-profit where attorneys volunteer for indigent tenants and man a phone line for tenant rights. If any of them get sophisticated on you, there's a huge chance it's because they talked to these guys. They've got some form letters there you may end up seeing.  They also publish a landlord guide, which is extremely good. Actual, practicing landlord/tenant attorneys in MN metro area is a very small group of folks, and they're authors on this book. https://homelinemn.org/publications/landlordsguidetomnlaw/

  • Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 95 posts · 52 votes
    9y

    @Dana Holland

    Just wanted to offer a word of encouragement.  There is a lot of great advice that BP members have offered, and this is a great opportunity to learn from mistakes already made.  I'm sure after going through all of this, you will be better prepared on how to set expectations and react to tenants in the future.

    I have had some tenant complaints and issues early in the tenancy that caused a lot of stress and anxiety.  I learned the hard way that a lot of this could have been mitigated by being better prepared and having the ability to set expectations clearly from the start.  I wasn't a BP member then and would've loved to have this community as a resource.

    Best of luck!

  • Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2017 · 43 posts · 12 votes
    9y

    @Jonathan R McLaughlin

    Thanks for the reply and for putting it in the tenants perspective.I do believe that it is always good to try to view a situation from both sides and I agree that there are some things that from their perspective should have been taken care of.However, I feel that they have as others have stated seized control of the situation.They noticed we have been soft with them and are trying to get anything they can out of us.Just to answer some of your points:

    1)True that some of the walls needed fixing.I’m not complaining that it needed fixing nor did I ever tell them that we wouldn’t fix it.Upon them requesting for the paint to be fixed, I immediately said we would take care of it.I only softly pushed back on a few walls that they wanted repainted because there was literally a tiny, less than a quarter sized mark way up high on a 15’ x 15’ wall.I said that it seemed unnecessary to take care of a very small item like that.The tenant responded that not only did we need to take care of that wall, but suggested that it would be in our best interest to repaint the ENTIRE 2500 square foot house so that all the paint is fresh.This is what I mean by them taking a situation and trying to get everything they can out of it and more.

    2)The water softener was not checked in the disclosures as being an item that comes with the house.We were in the process of moving out of the house and there were many of our items laying around still that we intended to take out.The disclosures is the sheet that dictates what they get and what they don’t.In my opinion before signing the contract they should have asked why it wasn’t checked if they saw a water softener on the property.It seems to me that they knew it wasn’t working, didn’t want to say something up front because they figured we would say no, sorry it doesn’t work.Instead they waited until we were just a week or so from the moving in and had agreed on everything in the lease to casually ask if the softener will be maintained for them.I could be reading too much into this but it sure seems fishy to me.Why didn’t they ask the same about the pool heater which they claimed was the number one reason for renting the house?

    3)I completely agree on the pool heater.This was the first item we really tried to push back on.The only reason we tried to push back on it is because in a face to face conversation about the tenant when we were trying to get a company to fix the heater she stated “It’s no big deal if they can’t fix it”.So I figured based on her statement that they could live without it and if that was the case of course I didn’t want to pour a bunch of money into it.Once she expressed (in about 3 separate scathing emails) how important the heater was to them, we had it fixed within 10 days.Even after having it fixed they still tried to get us to buy them a full tank of propane ($300) which we said no to of course.

    4)I’m not sure I understand your statement here.Everything except the pool heater was in good condition and as stated above we fixed the heater just as soon as we found out how important it was to them.They want to maintain the pool themselves which is a no go to us because we don’t want them messing with the pump and filter on their own.They clearly don’t know what they are doing.It seems to us that this is just another thing they are trying to use to get a reduced rent.

    Again, I appreciate your input and for making me step back to see it in their perspective.I still think that every time they have said “jump”, we say “how high”, and deliver what they want.I didn’t even mention in my original post that we let them borrow our lawnmower in lieu of charging them for bi-weekly lawn service.I’m kicking myself now about doing that and wondering if I can get the lawnmower back.It wasn’t stated in the lease that we would provide it for them.I also didn’t mention that upon move in we gave them a $50 gift card to a nice restaurant.I’m sure this is fairly standard, but just pointing out that the extremes we have gone to in order to have a good relationship.They asked upon moving in if we had any suggestions on area attractions for them and their kids since they are new to town.I spent 2-3 hours typing up about 3 pages worth of attractions (zoo, hiking trails, golf, museums, restaurants, etc) complete with contact info and directions to give to them.When I look back on it, what have I not done for them except have the home inspected by a professional inspector before move in to identify any problems (to landlords ever do this??).Anyway, as I stated before, the moment a problem was identified we fixed it with minimal push back, if any.

    As for why we believe the pool company owner over the landlords, we did not initially.We almost fired the pool company last week because we thought they were not being responsible and following the instructions we had laid out for them.However, then the landscaper incident happened and we started to question things more.We talked with the landscaper and got his story of how he was treated by the tenant which mirrored what the pool company said.I then called the pest control company we use who is also servicing the tenants home (at their expense).I wanted to inquire about how they are treated by the tenants.The pest control owner initially did not want to badmouth his other customer, but eventually did tell me that there have been a few incidents where the tenant treated his technician poorly and demanded more work be done after he had left.After talking with 3 separate contractors who don’t know each other at all I have painted a pretty good picture of who the tenants are and how they treat people.

  • Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2017 · 43 posts · 12 votes
    9y

    @Joe J.

    Thank you so much for the encouragement!  I completely agree with everything you said.  I know I've made many rookie mistakes and just trying to dig myself out of a hole now!  I too wish I had known about this forum months ago.  For the most part it seems like a great community of people with some really solid advice!  Thanks again!

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