Move-out damage negotiations
After seven years of living here, I'm relocating. In the next few weeks, the landlord will hit me with what she feels is an appropriate amount for damage.
Assuming she tries to exceed my $1,950 deposit, here is my plan:
-calculate the total sqft of stains on the carpet in relation to total sqft and get a percentage (in decimal form).
-apply percentage to quoted repair cost and offer that amount
Ex: 3sqft of stains in a 200sqft room = 1.5% of damage
Quoted repair of $1500 x 1.5% = $22.50 from me
I don't believe I'm responsible for recarpeting everything for such little damage. Rounding up like that is not in my lease.
The same basic math could be used for abnormal issues with paint, or anything else for that matter.
When you're dealing with a 3200sqft house, splitting the damage from the wear and tear is necessary. Gradual deterioration or aging of anything is not my priority - only stains, scuffs, holes, tears, and excessive damage caused by my fault or negligence.
I realize playing hardball with this landlord my lead us to court, but I'm not worried about the judge telling me it's my job to make sure everything matches.
Any thoughts?
If I were renting to a tenant, I would make sure to specify in the lease that it is their responsibility to leave the house the same way it was before they moved in.
But on the other hand, I wouldn't rent out a large house like that and can see how the size could cause such disagreements.
Good luck!
Uh, if someone splats 1 sq.ft. of paint in the middle of the 100 sq.ft. carpet, you think they're responsible for 1% of the cost of replacing that carpet? Not a chance. The entire carpet must be replaced, not 1% of it. You don't have a leg to stand on, and no judge is going to agree with you. Your responsibility is to return the property in the same condition as when you rented it. End of story. If you've damaged some of the paint, you'll pay to repaint the entire place. If you've stained spots on the carpet, you'll pay to replace the carpet. Doesn't matter that is "not your priority", the landlord is entitled to get it back in the same condition as when you leased it.
Good luck in court.
John hit the nail on the head. That's like telling the judge in a murder case; "look, I only put a 9mm hole in the guy's head, no way I'm responsible for his death".
You might get "some" mitigation on the carpet, 7 years is pretty long life for rental carpet so some of it can be chalked up to wear and tear. But you'd not be getting much back from me.
Over my long years of landlording I was much tougher on; uncleaned ovens, tubs and bathroom tile, "inadvertant" sheetrock holes from doorknobs, unmowed yards, unweeded flowerbeds, untrimmed shrubs, dirty windows and so on than carpet. Usually once I showed the "before" pictures to the tenant compared with the present condition they were amenable to my number. And it was a lot higher than 1%!
frank
About the only type of negotiations that could be successful is for her to allow you to have all those "stains, scuffs, holes, tears, and excessive damage caused by my fault or negligence" repaired by your people at your expense so that the move out pictures match the move in pictures.
This will do two things. One, give you an appreciation of what the real costs are for when you excell into investing yourself, and Two, get your full deposit back with an reference letter from her for your relocation apt/house.
You might even gain a new best friend that can guide you into the world of RE investing with her contracts and why she needs them.
It is positively a brand new year/decade. Plan to start it out right.
I think Jon's comment is 99% spot on. But his statement
Your responsibility is to return the property in the same condition as when you rented it.needs to be followed with "normal wear and tear excepted."
Is there any state where this is not included?
Too many tenants try and claim, IMO, damage as normal wear and tear. Simply put, ANY stain on a carpet is simply the result of a tenant not cleaning up after themselves. Wear on a carpet in a doorway caused by foot traffic through the doorway.
I agree with Frank. It's a negotion sometimes, and don't undervalue Jawsettes advice on the value of a good reference, either.
Have you, even once in 7 years had the carpet cleaned? And, I mean all the carpets. Are you planning to clean them now? How about all the windows and window sills? When was the last time you cleaned out under the kitchen sink (and really cleaned)? All the things that were done, and you benefitted from, when you moved in. You've probably got, in my experience, more of a cleaning bill coming from 7 years in that 3,200 SF house.
Instead of figuring out how you're going to argue damages versus wear and tear, why not ask the landlord to pre-inspect and then take care of what you can. Learn what they are looking for and minimize your costs?
Ralph S. wrote; "Instead of figuring out how you're going to argue damages versus wear and tear, why not ask the landlord to pre-inspect and then take care of what you can. Learn what they are looking for and minimize your costs?"
Absolutely, that's why it's a good idea when selling a house to get your own inspection done, EARLY, instead of waiting for the buyer's inspection, which will likely give the buyer extra negotiating points, and may have you under a time deadline.
BTW Ralph, I love the picture of the 2002! Having owned a number of them myself I appreciate the picture of a true classic.
frank
Originally posted by Ralph S.:
Instead of figuring out how you're going to argue damages versus wear and tear, why not ask the landlord to pre-inspect and then take care of what you can. Learn what they are looking for and minimize your costs?
I've already done what I can. The rest of the repairs will be left to professionals per the owner's request.
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Hi, I think you pretty well got the answers, you are responsible to turn over the property in as good a condition as you leased it, less amounts of normal wear, tear and depletion (or aging) of the improvements. As good a condition really boils down to a marketable condition for it's purpose, in other words, so that the property will re-rent for the same or even slightly more rents as comprable in that market. If you did anything that reduces it's marketability, you need to indeminfy the landlord. Normal wear and tear is the cost of doing business for a property owner, but not negligent acts. Small pin holes from hanging pictures is pretty much normal, a hole from a door knob is negligence. You ruin the carpet in a room, you replace it for that room, not the whole house. You might push it in court to the point that her carpet was 7 years old when you leased it and you indemnify her for the depreciated value, since new carpet say the for the nice stuff, might be more than just making the property owner "whole". Be reasonable. Bill
BTW Ralph, I love the picture of the 2002! Having owned a number of them myself I appreciate the picture of a true classic.
Thanks, Frank. I do enjoy my little go-cart with fenders. Roll up windows and all.
Yeah, you bet. Your plan would be excellent if the landlord could just replace the 5% of the carpet that was stained. Unfortunately, that doesn't work. Ditto the paint.
I suspect you must have done a lot of expensive damage if you haven't even received the accounting for your deposit and you are already whining about the deductions and threatening to sue.
Perhaps a good professional carpet cleaner can get the spots out and all you are going to get billed for is the carpet cleaning.
On the other hand, if you've lived like a pig for 7 years, it is now time for you to pay the price. If you want your deposit back from your next rental, take better care of the house.
And yes, you can get all your deposit back after 7 years. I just had a tenant move out after almost 8 years and the only deduction from his deposit is the professional carpet cleaning, which he knew he would pay before he moved in.
The paint and carpet are still like new. He washed the walls; I saw him. The house was spotless when he moved in, and spotless when he moved out.
RCW 59.18.270
Moneys paid as deposit or security for performance by tenant — Deposit by landlord in trust account — Receipt — Claims.
All moneys paid to the landlord by the tenant as a deposit as security for performance of the tenant's obligations in a lease or rental agreement shall promptly be deposited by the landlord in a trust account, maintained by the landlord for the purpose of holding such security deposits for tenants of the landlord----
I personally know of only one landlord that holds his deposits in an escrow account.. Not saying its an ethical angle, but it is the law, If you never received a deposit slip regarding the safekeeping of your deposit, you can demand that deposit due.....
Secondly,
"No deposit may be collected by a landlord unless the rental agreement is in writing and a written checklist or statement specifically describing the condition and cleanliness of or existing damages to the premises and furnishings, including, but not limited to, walls, floors, countertops, carpets, drapes, furniture, and appliances, is provided by the landlord to the tenant at the commencement of the tenancy."
No checklist=No claim against the deposit.
And last but not least, (if you go to court)
RCW 59.18.280
"The court may in its discretion award up to two times the amount of the deposit for the intentional refusal of the landlord to give the statement or refund due. In any action brought by the tenant to recover the deposit, the prevailing party shall additionally be entitled to the cost of suit or arbitration including a reasonable attorney's fee."
These are just some exerps from Chapter 59.18 RCW
Residential landlord-tenant act of Washington State. That said, C'mon guys, You cant reasonably expect the tenant of 7 years to replace the carpet due to 3sq/ft of stain. If the tenant was "living tike a pig" for seven years, why in the heck wouldn't you have gotten rid of them a little earlier, you reap what you sew.
The federal government claims that residential carpet has a "reasonably expected useful life" of 7-years... Also, Carpet should be depreciated in 20% blocks, or, 5 years.
After 7 years of tenancy, the landlord has no reasonable claim to the carpet being in excess of "reasonable wear from normal use".
But TACT is a whole different issue... For good measure, Should you have the carpet cleaned? Yes
Does the landlord have a foot to stand on? No
Chris,
First off, in a forum used mostly by investors you can realistically expect to get feedback that will discourage you. Your post probably brings back some of their worst tenant nightmares.
I would recommend finding a real estate attorney who works with tenants regarding Landlord Tenant Law. Ideally you'll want to pay zero for your consultation and if you retain him, push for a flat fee instead of an hourly rate.
As for the difference of wear and tear vs. damage, that's difficult to answer without seeing the property. I would agree with Dustin and assume the carpet is wear & tear. Then make a private, itemized list of what you think could be considered your fault.
Next, clean, repair and photograph as much as possible. You want to have as much proof that you left that place in the greatest condition you could.
And then, I would wait. Be reactive rather than proactive. So see if they give you your itemized list of repairs within the 14 days that follow the last day of the lease. If not, law requires that they release your deposit to you in full. If they don't, you can get it back via small claims. But remember, doing this does not stop them from taking you to court.
I've also heard of landlords handing repairs the tenant disputes over to a collections agency. But oftentimes this is to intimidate you and a cease & desist letter from your lawyer can usually get the collectors to wave a white flag. If they don't, they have to prove the damages on that list.
It's up to you to decide how much you're willing to pay and keep that in mind for when the landlord makes the first move.
Good luck
dont EVER try to second guess what some moron judges may rule.
I had one years ago that said knocking out (alot of)window glass was wear and tear
You know, just reading these last posts makes my blood boil. Playground lawyers quoting partial rules and trying to screw the landlord. Nice.
I hope the landlord is sharp and decides to screw your eyes out for this. Get the best of everything and sue you and wrap you up in court for years, including fees!
You lived there for seven years! He did his part of the deal, now you want to stick it to him, shove it!
As far as you "law" quoters, I hope this happens to you when you have rentals and 10,000+ in damages. Go to hell!
Really guys/gals? I seriously hope for the sake of all professionalism that this sort of direct defamation will not go lightly.
You lived there for seven years! He did his part of the deal, now you want to stick it to him, shove it!As far as you "law" quoters, I hope this happens to you when you have rentals and 10,000+ in damages. Go to hell!
As for me personally, you don't have to worry, It won't happen. I'm smart enough to know the law BEFORE I get into a situation that might need it. Plus, theres insurance for that! :D
Whats that saying again?... Oh.. "it is, what it is".. The law is the law. Chris came to the biggerpockets community for a solution to his conundrum, I can think of no better, undisputable source of information. It was written for his specific situation, to protect BOTH the tenant and landlord, Nonpartisan if you will.
I'm certainly not advocating for either party, as im sure we do not know ALL the facts to make an informed decision. But as for Chris personally, he asked, and feedback is what he received, based on the information he provided. What he deserved for asking, was an opinion not skewed by personal vindictive tendency, or partisan based vilification. Good day.
Telling people to avoid their responsibilities by looking for a loophole in the lease document?
"All moneys paid to the landlord by the tenant as a deposit as security for performance of the tenant's obligations in a lease or rental agreement shall promptly be deposited by the landlord in a trust account, maintained by the landlord for the purpose of holding such security deposits for tenants of the landlord----
I personally know of only one landlord that holds his deposits in an escrow account.. Not saying its an ethical angle, but it is the law, If you never received a deposit slip regarding the safekeeping of your deposit, you can demand that deposit due.....
Secondly,
"No deposit may be collected by a landlord unless the rental agreement is in writing and a written checklist or statement specifically describing the condition and cleanliness of or existing damages to the premises and furnishings, including, but not limited to, walls, floors, countertops, carpets, drapes, furniture, and appliances, is provided by the landlord to the tenant at the commencement of the tenancy."
This is the worst king of legal garbage.
Do not take responsibility, look to get out of your responsibility. Great advice!
You are a credit to the human race.
Umm...thats not legal advice.. thats the law.. Quoted actually. That came "copy and paste" form, straight from the Washington landlord tenant act.
And actually... I would say that I AM a credit to the human race thank you! I've accomplished a number of things that I think contribute to society far beyond the scope of expected contribution.
But what does it say about you when you defimate people in ALL of your posts?
Please turn down the vitriol or further posts will be removed without notification. There is ZERO reason for personal attacks here. If you're in disagreement with the information stated, please speak to that. Once you start attacking people personally, you're crossing the line, period.
Back to the discussion at hand, please.
"All moneys paid to the landlord by the tenant as a deposit as security for performance of the tenant's obligations in a lease or rental agreement shall promptly be deposited by the landlord in a trust account, maintained by the landlord for the purpose of holding such security deposits for tenants of the landlord----
You are just a little off base with your interpretation due to the bold wordings of the law. The security deposits are to secure the tennants responsibility, not the landlords. And that responsibility is pointed out in the rental contract, which is to return the apartment in the same condition as it was recieved.
Since the apartment was not recieved with a stain on it which can not be normal ware and tare.
So the additional cleaning and or replacement of the carpet is the responsibility of the tennant, or it is deducted from that security deposit.
Then you go on to state
The federal government claims that residential carpet has a "reasonably expected useful life" of 7-years... Also, Carpet should be depreciated in 20% blocks, or, 5 years.
Now you start with State law then move to Federal suggestions then to IRS expense law.
Which one do you want to use? Federal sugesstions is not law in any state.
It is also suggestion that a roof only lasts 7 years, so should this tennant claim that his entire deposit is due back to his because the roof was not replaced?
Please do not mix the different laws for your benefit.
As was pointed out to his by many posters, his next move in negotiations is to talk to the landlord and inform him of what he is trying to do. Most landlords will be understanding of wear and tear and take that into consideration. Also taken into consideration is the longevity and attitute of the tennant.
If the tennant is showing an attitude of trying to stiff the landlord the landlord will go by the letter of the law, but if the tennant is showing an attempt to fix that which is his responsibility (the stain) the landlord, due to the tennants timely payments, ect, will often tell that good tennant that it is ok because it is time to replace the whole carpet anyway.
Resort to the law, when necessary. That is when all else has failed. But dont overlook the best negotation tactic. Be the best tennant, cause no problems, keep everything up, and inform the landlord of problems that need his attention. This is the best way to reap the rewards of the landlord believing in you and assisting you on the back end.