AC and Copper Theft Issues

Rehabbing & House Flipping
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AC and Copper Theft Issues

Jordan Bateman
Rehabber · Lake Conroe Area, TX · Member since 2010 · 48 posts · 15 votes

I've had two condenser units on two different houses stolen (one was just the copper) in the last few weeks. It's very frustrating as you know, and always seems to happen when the house is for sale.

I've read through some comments but just thought I would start a new topic to get some ideas from fellow rehabbers or landlords on ways to prevent theft or vandalism. In my situation, it's specifically been HVAC related, but I've seen all kinds.

Anyone use cameras?

Any comments or ideas are greatly appreciated.

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Ed O.
Investor · Statewide, MO · Member since 2011 · 819 posts · 427 votes
14y

A pad lock on the disconnect may also slow down a more novice thug, when it comes to stealing a condensor.
You could also pour a concrete pad and possibly bolt the condensor down to the pad.

As it pertains to a theft on the day of the close, I think it would be the problem of the person owning the property at the time it was noticed. If the deal closed and then it was noticed, I think you're off the hook. The downside of putting a cage on the unit is that it will send a bad message to potential buyers. You're in a tough spot either way.

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  • Rodney Williams
    Investor · Ocala/Belleview, FL · Member since 2009 · 78 posts · 48 votes
    14y

    I have not had that problem yet. Cameras might make someone think twice, however the only way to really solve it may be to install a cage. The cost usually starts at $300, which is better than replacing a unit.

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  • James Martin
    Property Management · Memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 668 posts · 362 votes
    14y

    In the past, a friend of mine owned some duplexes in a rough side of town. He built cages and had the home alarm hooked to the condenser unit and cage. I don't know exactly how he hook everything up, but when you take the fuse out or open the door of the cage it will sound the alarm. He also had wire mesh welded on these units with three annoying sirens around the house. We all know that this will only slow them down, but it really encourage thieves to find an easier target.

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  • McKellar Newsom
    Real Estate Investor · Chattanooga, TN · Member since 2009 · 191 posts · 47 votes
    14y

    I have a 4 prong approach in areas with theft. Add a cage, add an alarm, secure the crawl space (make it really secure if you have copper) and install motion sensor lights.

    I've heard there have been some lawsuits regarding dummy cameras. I don't know the details.

    If you are in a war zone, you can add an external siren alarm as long as the city is okay with it.

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  • James Martin
    Property Management · Memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 668 posts · 362 votes
    14y

    McKellar you are right about the crawl spaces. I have an offer on two homes now that are on rised foundations with no copper. I usually only buy on a slab, but these are some great copperless properties. I going back with pvc with lock metal door.

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  • Jordan Bateman
    OP
    Rehabber · Lake Conroe Area, TX · Member since 2010 · 48 posts · 15 votes
    14y

    Great info, I've heard of the cages...worth the investment, especially if you can reuse it. These houses are actually in nicer parts of Houston, which is why I'm so surprised. One happened the day of closing...so who's problem is it then?

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  • Ed O.
    Investor · Statewide, MO · Member since 2011 · 819 posts · 427 votes
    14y

    A pad lock on the disconnect may also slow down a more novice thug, when it comes to stealing a condensor.
    You could also pour a concrete pad and possibly bolt the condensor down to the pad.

    As it pertains to a theft on the day of the close, I think it would be the problem of the person owning the property at the time it was noticed. If the deal closed and then it was noticed, I think you're off the hook. The downside of putting a cage on the unit is that it will send a bad message to potential buyers. You're in a tough spot either way.

    1Reply
  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    14y

    Did the buyer do a walk through that day before closing??

    If it's noticed BEFORE closing the buyer should have demanded they will not close until the seller replaces it.

    You would have had to replace unless they were buying as-is.There is usually a provision int he purchase and sale that says the property will not be materially different from the time you went under contract or the buyer has the right to terminate the agreement and retain all the earnest money.

    If it happened after the closing then the buyer would most likely file a claim to have it replaced.

    If you were standing to make a decent amount of money off of this I would just replace it for the buyer and file a claim with your insurance.

    Otherwise there could be an argument over WHEN it was stolen (before they signed the papers or after)and they might try to sue to get money.

    No legal advice.

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  • Steve Babiak
    Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    14y

    I posted a bunch of links to other threads in this next thread - lots of good reading:
    http://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/67/topics/56514-rehabbing-property-vacancy-robbed

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  • McKellar Newsom
    Real Estate Investor · Chattanooga, TN · Member since 2009 · 191 posts · 47 votes
    14y

    Does anyone have information on the liability issue from using dummy cameras?

    I've listed having the seller add an Hvac cage as part of an offer. I use it to potentially get the funds to put the cage up and get the cage up before closing. Psychologically, the extra stip tells the seller "hey, your property is vulnerable; sell it for a good price to unload it."

    1Reply
  • Craig Grella
    Commercial Real Estate Broker · Nashville, TN · Member since 2008 · 151 posts · 46 votes
    14y

    Thanks for the link Steve.

    I just got a call from a client last night on a property I helped them finance in Chicago. They installed a cage door on a duplex where they were doing some rehab. Not only did the vandals get through the cage door, they took it with them, along with two new water heaters that had been put in.

    Who steals a cage door? Seriously.

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  • Steve Babiak
    Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Craig Grella:
    ...

    Who steals a cage door? Seriously.

    Scrap metal "miners".

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  • James Martin
    Property Management · Memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 668 posts · 362 votes
    14y

    That is why the mesh is welded on the cage because they can steal the copper from the condensor inside the cage. And just as Steve said, scrap metal miners.It amazes me how it takes my plumber two days to stud out my property, but a thief a couple hours taking everything out so critiquely.

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  • Craig Grella
    Commercial Real Estate Broker · Nashville, TN · Member since 2008 · 151 posts · 46 votes
    14y

    I suppose If you setup a camera to catch them in the act they'd steal that too!

    0Reply
  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    14y

    My apartments are in a good area.Having said that they are older buildings.We are rehabbing some vacants.

    We went door to door with a letter to all tenants explaining to call the cops if they see anything suspicious.I have a manager and maintenance guy on site but it helps to have extra eyes looking.

    We also offered a 250.00 cash reward for a tenant reporting a call that leads to an arrest.

    The key is leads to an arrest not just a call.The police have to locate the offender and take them to jail for the tenant to get credit.This makes the tenant want to catch them in the act.I figure 250.00 is as much if not more than what an intruder would steal or do in damage to a property.

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  • Mark D.
    Lender · Pasadena, CA · Member since 2008 · 50 posts · 11 votes
    14y

    So how much should the HVAC cage cost installed? My property manager just charged me $380, which seems steep. Thanks

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  • David Beard
    Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    14y

    $300 is what I typically hear, and I dont know if that includes installation, so your charge is by no means ridiculous.

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  • Brent Zande
    Contractor · Cornelius, NC · Member since 2011 · 123 posts · 89 votes
    14y

    I have had tremendous success with 2 things. 1. A sign that simply says "Smile you are on Camera" and 2. A flood light with a motion sensor up high enough that all the neighbors can see it go on. Got them during the day (assuming they can read) and got them at night.
    Good luck.

    1Reply
  • Ryan Aydelott
    Flipper · Chicago, IL · Member since 2012 · 24 posts · 8 votes
    14y

    I agree with most everyone else, cages are the best way to go about it.

    The only other thing is if it's feasible I see roof mount units having very little problems with theft.

    0Reply
  • Thomas Lethcoe
    Real Estate Investor · Gobles, MI · Member since 2008 · 10 posts · 4 votes
    14y

    This issue will only be compounded as the economy continues to grind at its lows. As people get desperate metal is looted. Honestly theres some areas that you just plan on the metal being stripped. Smile there are much better plumbing solutions available now.

    The best things i have found to do on any house I have:

    Agree with above "smile your on camera"

    Meet the neighbors ( i do this anyways before i ever purchase a home) They have my number I have theirs.

    Have a real wireless camera installed that is powered both AC and DC. (Place the recording device hidden in the Home or Stream to the Cloud for viewing on your smart phone or other Device)

    Many of these cameras only cost a couple hundred bucks and are equipped with night vision and motion detection recording. WORTH THE MONEY if you ask me.

    1Reply
  • Kevin Barker
    Real Estate Investor · Alpharetta, GA · Member since 2011 · 28 posts · 1 vote
    14y

    I have recently had a cage snipped with bolt cutters and bent over to take condenser. Lesson learned was make sure cage is substantial enough not to be cut.

    0Reply
  • Albert Hasson
    Investor · Paradise Valley, AZ · Member since 2012 · 366 posts · 214 votes
    14y

    I had a condenser unit stolen from a short sale I was buying. Happened while house was in escrow. Sellers didnt have any money so I ended up buying new one so I could get financing. Turns out it was a crew of landscapers who stole ac units while they mowed and trimmed!! They targeted homes with for sale signs. I was surprised because its a nice area. Once I closed on the house I installed a motion sensor light and padlocked the gate to the back yard. Best defense is to get tenant in place ASAP.

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  • James H.
    Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes
    14y

    Cages will hopefully discourage them. I had a new system installed and several HVAC contractors told me that it was standard practice for them to do the install but wait until the unit was leased and then come out to install the compressor. I wonder if you could have a contractor temporarily remove a unit?

    Also, noise is one of the biggest theft deterrents. I always leave a radio on inside a vacant unit just loud enough that it can be heard at the closed windows and doors from the outside. I have had contractors tell me they hesitated to enter the house because of the radio being on making them unsure if there was actually someone in there or not.

    1Reply
  • James Elliott
    Fort Myers, FL · Member since 2012 · 6 posts · 1 vote
    14y

    I had several ac units stolen in the Fort Myers, FL area from investment properties - all were protected with cages.

    Every single time I replaced the units they were stolen AGAIN within 3-4 months.

    FINALLY came across this company called Asset Trax. I ordered one of there ac trax units for a new condenser when we installed it instead of a cage. Units been untouched for 5 months.

    The unit cost me $199 vs the $400 something I paid per cage.

    Last week I replaced all my cages with these units.

    Website is www.easygpsonline.com

    Definitely recommend checking them out. I dealt with a man named Bruce.

    Hope this helps

    1Reply
  • Just Don
    Member since 2009 · 499 posts · 117 votes
    14y

    and replace copper pipes with pex. Not sure how you would lock up a crawl space,,,most access thru house crawl hole in utility room etc. Outside accesses are being buttoned up here for heat loss reasons. Old outside accesses were too small to get our fat assets thru anyway,,,course that may deter some. But galvanized pipes are not stolen much(pexing those out asap cause they are rusted up and throw too much faucet plugging material)

    locking up crawl spaces would keep junk from filling them ,,,stuff finds way in with out being ever removed.

    If I go to cages I will probably make my own and be so heavy they couldnt lift them. Maybe insulate bolts and hook up a 12 volt fencer to it,,,they wont touch it twice

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  • Larry Andershock
    Real Estate Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2010 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    14y

    OK, I haven't done any rehabs or had this problem yet but I've heard a few tips from local investors may help.

    One rehabber here invests in South Central LA - the war zone - and puts a lamp and a radio inside the house on a timer. Motion sensors on outside lighting are also a good deterrent. Mentions she also meets all the neighbors, introduces herself, gives them her contact info and often will "hire" one of them to watch the property and report anything suspicious. I'm sure this is much cheaper than the cost of repairing the vandalism assuming you hire the right neighbor and not the likely "perp." Of course if you tell every neighbor you've got every other neighbor watching, this could be a deterrent too.

    Cameras that will record to the cloud - i.e. actual recording stored somewhere physically separate from the premises will capture video even if the camera itself is stolen. There is no physical DVR on the site to be taken and destroy the evidence. That said video quality is hit and miss, especially with "cheap" cameras. You need good resolution and typically good light to get a good image and that image is only good if the person looks at or near the camera.

    I'm not negative about cameras, I've sold many commercial cameras that start at $2k - $3k each. Technology is getting better and cheaper but you've got to know its limitations and how and when it works best. Often Physical Signs like the "Smile, you're on Camera" are sufficient deterrents for the casual bandit crime of easy opportunity but if they are bent on pilfering they're coming in anyway. Note: I've installed several cameras on LA's skid row used by LAPD and several business owners in the area didn't want to invest the approx $10k to add a camera to their building and the network but a nice big sign saying they are being monitored was an easy choice for many....who's got 'em, who doesn't....I'm not sure. Of course psychology only works on those who understand it and have something to lose.

    In reply to the question about lawsuits and liability (I am not an attorney and do not provide legal advice, consult your appropriate professional) in most cases as long as notice was posted it appears most courts have held that people can expect they are being watched/monitored and shouldn't have any reasonable expectation of privacy. Often in public area's privacy is not assumed and signs may not even be necessary but they can be helpful. I haven't heard of anyone being successfully sued because they said they had cameras and did not. Of course if you own at least one camera and it may visit a job site and possibly get installed at least for a period of time who's to say it doesn't need to be removed and sent to the shop for repairs now and then.

    Likewise, James' post about the Asset Tracking tags sounds very promising too. Gotta love RFID and GPS technology. (I do ;-). Once had a vendor show me a product from DeWalt (the tool guys) just found it www.DeWaltMobileLock.com that is great for say contractors or remote job sites that are fenced off. No camera but internal motion sensor and attachable external motion sensor (think automatic door openers) & GPS that works via cellular system. Very cool. Can be bolted to your Skip Loader in case someone tries to drive it off but may be a bit large to conceal in an AC compressor... Calls you, texts you, you can track it via gps on internet site. It's application only limited to your imagination and may have instances and situations where this device may work for you.

    OK, back to work.

    Larry A

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