Being invisible

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Being invisible

Chris Martin
Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes

From another BP post I saw this comment:

"No matter if you have your proprieties in a LLC, CORP it is not hard to find out who the owner of the LLC, CORP is. I am no expert but doing normal business hours it would only take me about 2 hours to know who the owner is. Your best bet is a good insurance policy."

I didn't want to further hijack the thread, hence this new topic.

In many cases, I think this statement is correct. But if someone did not want their ownership interest discovered, and went to 'reasonable' means to conceal that ownership interest, I think it is difficult to (using legal methods) find the owner.

Using conventional means, the secretary of state filings are the obvious first choice for where to find owners. LLCs are required to file Organizational documents and annual reports with the state. Some people file themselves. Some use a service. Incorp Services, Inc., acting as organizer and registered agent, has registered and maintains well over 1900 companies in NC. So as registered agents, these are Businesses that Incorp Services, Inc. represents.

In several dozen random views of filings for companies represented by Incorp, several "foreign" (meaning out of state) LLC formations do not list officers. And upon viewing many of the Principal Offices, there are a reasonable number that match UPS Store addresses or other addresses that don't uniquely identify an establishment. A Google search on some of these yielded more information and some led me to web sites where it appeared like I could find a phone contact or other "identification" as to who the owner might be. Others... not so much.

But the premise is 'in 2 hours can you find the owner?'

I'd say 'no' for someone hell-bent on being invisible.

Two parts to the question: 'Do you want to be known as owner of your company?' and 'Can you (without court order or someone using illegal methods) be invisible?'

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Will BarnardPro Member
Moderator
Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
12y

Being from CA and all our liberal laws, someone can be used for looking at you the wrong way. There comes a price with privacy and public exposure. I have taken the public exposure route and anyone can find me very easily. I use entities, operate in a responsible and legal manner, and carry insurance as protection. The downside of exposure is the opportunity it creates for people to sue regardless if it is frivolous or not. The upside is that it generates contacts, service providers, friends, partners, private money lenders, etc.

I will take the bad with the good in being public. As far as being a borrowe, my public figure and rep provides the lender will a more comfortable feeling I that I am fully and publicly transparent. Someone in another thread yesterday mentioned how building a good reputation takes years and can be destroyed in minutes by messing up, that is so very true.

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  • Brian Gibbons
    Investor · Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2008 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by Bill Gulley:
    Chris, sorry your question got smoked, there are many ways to ensure privacy for owners of larger operations that can not be pierced in two hours, even by the justice department or intelligence agencies or even the IRS as not all agreements, assignments or deeds must be filed, they can sit in a lock box. Deeds are effective when made, not when they are filed. Someone else can be shown as an owner of record and that person can have other agreements to convey that interest upon certain events or upon demand. You may not know who is pulling the strings in the backroom. Don't be so easily bluffed.
    Trying to hide in an LLC or small corporation isn't hard to pierce eventually, internal operating agreements can provide for others to pull stings and draw compensation. If you have adult children for example, they may be the owners, mom and dad can be in the backroom and if anything happens to the old folks, you have less issues as internal arrangements simply fade away. Nothing illegal about it.

    As to the hiding out, I never hide from the public in business conducted, you need to be out there and responsible but it's different as to assets, especially in family or estate affairs as it's no ones business. :)

    Hi Bill,

    When I was in estate planning,selling business continuation insurance, especially for MDs and JDs, we talked about FLPs, Family Limited Partnershiips, where creditors are hamstrung, Dad owns 1% but controls 100%, charging orders from creditors are difficult to execute.

    http://www.assetprotectiontraining.com/apt-flp-practice great offshore and FLP videos.

    But I really do not know what works in the real world.

    Also see http://www.rjmintz.com/family-limited-partnership/charging-order-remedy/

    2Reply
  • Chris Martin
    OP
    Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by Joe Gore:
    Chris,


    You can believe all the smoke and mirrors if you like but if your LLC or CORP ever gets sued, they can find out who the owners are because they will be drawn out in the open. And yes you can put fake names like Al Bundy, Moe Howard in the LLC or CORP to hide your real ownership but when the truth comes out I would not want to be in your shoes don't take my word for it ask a good lawyer.


    Joe Gore

    @Account Closed I never made any statement about using fictitious names. If there was a suit, the suit would be against the company. Equity Trust Company is a real company, by the way. And per IRS rules, I can't sign documents. That doesn't make it "smoke and mirrors" and fictitious.

    I'm not sure why you insist on changing the topic and changing the words from my posts.

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  • Account Closed
    Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 744 votes
    12y
    Chris,

    Sorry you took it the wrong way. Yes, they would sue your company and name John Doe to see who is behind door number one door number 2 and door number 3 to get to the owner.


    Joe Gore
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  • Steven Hamilton IIPro Member
    Accountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by Brian Gibbons:
    Originally posted by Bill Gulley:
    Chris, sorry your question got smoked, there are many ways to ensure privacy for owners of larger operations that can not be pierced in two hours, even by the justice department or intelligence agencies or even the IRS as not all agreements, assignments or deeds must be filed, they can sit in a lock box. Deeds are effective when made, not when they are filed. Someone else can be shown as an owner of record and that person can have other agreements to convey that interest upon certain events or upon demand. You may not know who is pulling the strings in the backroom. Don't be so easily bluffed.
    Trying to hide in an LLC or small corporation isn't hard to pierce eventually, internal operating agreements can provide for others to pull stings and draw compensation. If you have adult children for example, they may be the owners, mom and dad can be in the backroom and if anything happens to the old folks, you have less issues as internal arrangements simply fade away. Nothing illegal about it.
    As to the hiding out, I never hide from the public in business conducted, you need to be out there and responsible but it's different as to assets, especially in family or estate affairs as it's no ones business. :)

    Hi Bill,

    When I was in estate planning,selling business continuation insurance, especially for MDs and JDs, we talked about FLPs, Family Limited Partnershiips, where creditors are hamstrung, Dad owns 1% but controls 100%, charging orders from creditors are difficult to execute.

    http://www.assetprotectiontraining.com/apt-flp-practice great offshore and FLP videos.

    But I really do not know what works in the real world.

    Also see http://www.rjmintz.com/family-limited-partnership/charging-order-remedy/

    It is very simple. If they attach your 25% interest in he FLP, they can only receive income. They cannot make decisions as they can only receive the income. They do not actually own the interest. Now, if the partnership profits 200k, the share of profit to the creditor is 50k. If the partnership does not distribute funds the creditor still has to pay income tax on this income; however, it still has a right to pay out bonuses to employees. Which if yo figure a 6% state tax and 34% federal tax. There goes a lot of money out of their hands.

    OH and by the way, you can structure it as such that payments out to the partner's can be unequal. So you would not be forced to give distributions to that partner.

    [email protected]224-381-2660
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  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    Yep, and the parents can have an LLC that simply contracts management and take it as income. Lots of ways to skin cats. Not affiliates, separate entities. :)

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