Strategy Change: Multi to 3/2

Strategy Change: Multi to 3/2

Mark S.Pro Member
Rental Property Investor · KY · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 537 votes

After a heart-to-heart conversation with my realtor and myself, I've come to the conclusion that the multi-family space may not be for me...at least right now.

It appears that in my area virtually all the multi-family properties are in "C" or "D" neighborhoods, and mostly right on the border of each other. I'm looking for more of a "B" / "C" borderline area. With that said, I'm seriously considering (even though I was previously against it) buying 3/2, or similar, single family homes.

Here are my thoughts:

PROS Price: Based on my somewhat limited cash resources at this time, I can get into a property for quite a bit less than multi-families. Exit Strategy: In the event I ever get into trouble or want out, a 3/2 is likely much easier to unload than a small multi-family. Gaining Experience: I think this might be an easier entry path from a first time investor standpoint to gain valuable land lording experience. Ratios/Rules of Thumb: Buying foreclosures in this area should still allow me to achieve some of the general rules of thumb and generally accepted financial success ratios. Rate of Expansion: Since these single family homes will be less expensive than the multi-families, I should be able to acquire more properties more quickly.

CONS Cashflow: Even though ratios might be better, monthly passive Cashflow dollars will be less. Vacancy: If my 3/2 is vacant, I have 100% vacancy versus a multi-unit where that might only translate into a 25% or 50% vacancy. Competition: It seems like there may be more investors/flippers interested in the single family foreclosures vs multi-units. Rehabbing: Chances are many of these single family homes will need some major work. Do I really want to have to get into the whole ARV thing?

As I continue to ponder what the right next move for me, I also don't want to experience paralysis by analysis. If I were to move forward on the 3/2 approach, here's what my game plan is:

1.) Search for foreclosed homes generally within 1 hour of where I live that are in my budget.

2.) When I find a qualifying property, run some numbers on market rents, crime, etc. for that area to see if if will even be a feasible investment.

3.) Have my realtor get us in to the property to take a quick look at estimating any sort of work needed. Basically, do I just want to run the other way, or is it ultimately worth getting a few contractor bids for the repairs?

4.) Make offer on property with property inspection to my satisfaction contingency clause (assuming that's allowed).

5.) Negotiate. Get an inspection. Get contractor bids. Close the deal. Get to work. Rent it out.

6.) Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

HELP FROM BP NATION: What I would like to hear from all of you are your opinions on my pros/cons (did I miss anything, am I way off on anything), your opinions on my next steps, and either a slap on the wrist to fix some things or a kick in the behind to stop talking and get moving.

Thanks in advance, everyone! You have no idea how much this will help me. I will give back one day when I am in a position to help others and add value.

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  • Mark S.Pro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · KY · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 537 votes
    12y

    Bueler?

  • Specialist · Atlantic City, NJ · Member since 2013 · 431 posts · 170 votes
    12y

    your seem to be on the right path working through the pros and cons

    I would say a deal is a deal. Keep plugging away and keep am open mind

  • Mark S.Pro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · KY · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 537 votes
    12y

    Thanks, @Kurt Kwart I appreciate the kind words. I found a 3/2 foreclosure about 10 miles from my home that I may be going to check out today. The property has been on the market for about 4 1/2 months, just had a 10% price drop, and is in a good area. There's a huge crack in the front brick of it, though, which might mean foundational issues; that's the big IF right now. My realtor is supposed to be checking on it and we'll probably look at it this afternoon.

    He did mention something about a "take it or leave it" offer. I'm not all that familiar, but my understanding is that with an inspection, it leaves us an "out," should I decide that I don't want to move forward with the property. Being a new investor, I don't think I want to mess with foundational issues, but to his point, depending on what it is, everything in a house can be fixed for a price.

  • Dallas, TX · Member since 2011 · 308 posts · 59 votes
    12y

    I have done exactly this and switched focus from multis to SFH and couldn't be more pleased. Don't get me wrong, I love multis at the right price, but it seems much tougher to get a deal than on a SFH.

    The two major pros of multis are financing (for 2-4 units) and management. Management is not very significant until you start getting into 30-40+ units, but you can finance a 4 plex selling at 30k per door with conventional financing, whereas a SFH for 30k would need to be bought all cash or with a private/portfolio loan.

    Edit: I should also add that calculating the correct ARV is an extremely important skill to have, whether you are a flipper or buy and hold investor. It's more forgiving if you buy and hold but still should be an automatic part in your due diligence process.

  • Mark S.Pro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · KY · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 537 votes
    12y

    @Bryce Y.

    Thanks for your feedback. I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one with this school of thinking. All the multi-family properties I looked at (mostly 4-plex foreclosures) were in C to D neighborhoods, and that's just not for me. I'd rather buy SFs in B to C neighborhoods.

    I'm mainly looking at SF foreclosures right now to try to get the best deal. So far, they all need some sort of work, and although I am the furthest thing from a rehabber (I'd have to hire it all out), it appears this may still be cheaper overall than buying retail turnkey.

  • Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    12y

    If you type "single family versus multi family" in the search box, you will get many threads on this "top-10" topic. Some advantages of each (disadvantages are generally just the opposite):

    SFR: greater renter demand, more potential buyers when need to sell (homeowners+investors), tenants pay utilities and mow grass, less funds needed to get going, higher LTVs permitted by banks, better tenants and longer tenancies cut turnover/leasing/maint expenses, more inventory available, more exits w/ possible lease/options and seller financing, more geographic dispersion possible with SFRs spread out so greater diversification if neighborhood goes bad

    MFR: more efficient financing (one Fannie Mae loan locks up 3-4 units), modest economies of scale (one roof), higher gross rent yields often, can possibly add value through increasing NOI, less driving around since you have more units in one place, lock down more units on one transaction vs hunting for multiple SFR deals

    The 100% vacant thing on SFRs is of course true and oft-quoted, but if you have three SFRs versus one 4-plex for the same amount of capital requirement, then that point no longer makes any sense; it's all about units.

    So if you can find SFRs that meet your requirements, the get off your arse and go buy some!! :-)

  • Real estate investor · Las Vegas · Member since 2013 · 798 posts · 171 votes
    12y

    I agree w/ you that just doing something is a plus, but a few things to consider. Yes, the inspection gives you an out, but if you can find out more about the damage now, you save time and money avoiding or negotiating prior to the inspection. Also, instead of looking at just 3/2 vs larger multi-units, what about the location and possibility of 2-4 unit multis?

  • Mark S.Pro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · KY · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 537 votes
    12y

    @David Beard

    Yes, sir! I'm actually going to look at 3 properties tomorrow with my realtor. I feel like I'm getting closer. I can't wait to close my first deal and post all about it on BP. This site has been a HUGE help for me so far, and I'm sure it will continue. I can't wait until I'm able to give back!

    @Pete T.


    I was formerly looking at 2-4 units. This isn't to say I'll never buy multi-units, but I'm focusing more on SFH right now.

  • Real estate investor · Las Vegas · Member since 2013 · 798 posts · 171 votes
    12y

    I would just say, dont rule anything out completely and look to find the best deal that meets your end goals.

  • Real Estate Investor · Arlington, VA · Member since 2012 · 300 posts · 277 votes
    12y

    @Mark S - you're definitely on the right track! Have you seen my blog, right out of lions mouth :-)

    Multifamilies lately seem a little bit harder to find that offer the returns and cashflows of the past. You can stay open to both types, but I wouldnt do a Multi-family just to do it, if the numbers are scaled up too high. Each house will net you a different type of deal, so just keep checking your local mls for the one that makes sense. Im sure you will do fine, from your initial statement you're taking the major factors into consideration, so you can account for a lot of the risks you may encounter since you know what they are.

  • Mark S.Pro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · KY · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 537 votes
    12y

    @Lisa Phillips:

    Townhouse: 3BR / 2.5BA, ~1,250 sq. ft., built in 2000, brick/vinyl, carpet.

    The Numbers:
    $60,000 asking price
    Since we'll likely be negotiating on a final price, let's just assume worst case scenario at ask.

    GROSS RENTAL INCOME: $675/mo

    DEBT SERVICE
    20% down: $12,000
    80% financed: 30-year fixed rate mortgage at 5% (not yet locked).
    PI: $258/mo

    EXPENSES
    Taxes: $662/yr or $55/mo
    Insurance: $67/mo (estimated; in process of obtaining quote)
    Supplies: $200/yr (rental signs, online ads, b.s., etc.) or $17/mo
    Vacancy: 10% (conservative estimate): $810/yr or $68/mo
    Lawn (likely I'll make tenant do it, but...): $50/mo
    Maintenance & Repairs: $68/mo
    Total Estimated Expenses: $325

    CASHFLOW / RATIOS
    Estimated Positive Cashflow to My Face: +$92
    Cash-On-Cash: 9.44%
    CAP Rate (although, I know it's more commonly used for multi, not SFR): 7.04%

    One thing I did not yet mention is the seemingly small rehab, which I'm estimating about $3,000 - $5,000 total. Since the above estimates are based on asking price and I'm obviously offering lower than that, I figured these upfront rehab costs will net out from the somewhere close to the discount off ask that I'll get.

    Here are the items on my "rehab" list, which isn't much at all IMO:

    Small carpet stain in one of the bedrooms - likely will leave this for now. I don't think it's a deal killer.
    Back Deck: needs to be stained - $150 w labor (yes, I'm too lazy to stain a deck).
    Door in BR: needs to be replaced - $250
    Shed out back: needs to be repaired/replaced - $1,000 to $1,500
    Hole in Closet Door: either patch or leave it alone - maybe $50
    Replace Exterior Light Fixture on Deck: $50
    Back Door Reseal: $450 w labor (maybe?)
    Replace 1 to 2 Windows (moisture issues): $600
    Miscellaneous Other Cosmetic Issues - up to $2,000.
    Total "Rehab": $3,000 - $5,000

    @David Beard @Pete T. @Bryce Y. @Kurt Kwart

    How'd I do?

  • Hudson, WI · Member since 2012 · 189 posts · 30 votes
    12y

    60k is too much in my opinion. Id feel better at 40-45k with that property.

    I wouldn't want to make any less than $100-150 a month cash flow, at this price point, and that includes PM.

    New shed? Why do they need a shed? You're mowing the lawn you said. Also, it its a town house? Why are you mowing the lawn? Where is the HOA fees, and what do they pay for? HOA fees here with 100-170k townhomes range from $120-180 a month.

    Regardless, at 65k all in your basically at 1% gross rents to purchase price. Too tight in my book, especially on such a cheap property. Offer $40k-45k. Maybe more if you KNOW you can get over $700 a month.


    PS - some of your maintenance numbers could use some honing in my opinion. Plan on doing it yourself, watch online videos and shop at Home Depot/Lowes, whatever to get pricing ahead of time. Lastly, if your self admittedly too lazy to mow the lawn or stain the deck, I wouldn't plan on self-PMing and not hating it.

  • Dallas, TX · Member since 2011 · 308 posts · 59 votes
    12y

    As Shane mentioned, what about HOA fees? Unless I could get a townhome/condo dirt cheap I probably wouldn't touch it because of the fees and unpredictability (some will have restrictions on leasing your unit). Also 1% rent/price is too low for me. I usually like to see minimum 1.5%.

  • Mark S.Pro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · KY · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 537 votes
    12y
    I say townhouse, but I guess it's really single family ATTACHED. I thought the two were interchangeable. There are no HOA fees. As for the offer, there are three that have sold in this subdivision in the past 3 months: Retail buyer for $88,000 Foreclosure for $47,000 (when listed at $49,900) Foreclosure for $57,000 (when listed at $62,000). Slight differences, but all pretty much the same types of units. What should my offer be? I'm thinking of coming in at $50,000. Sounds dumb, but I think a "5" in front of it may help them take it more seriously. Also, I was considering coming in at $52,000 and asking for $2,000 in closing costs. Is either one of those more attractive than the other?
  • Real Estate Investor · Arlington, VA · Member since 2012 · 300 posts · 277 votes
    12y

    @Mark S.

    I would have to agree with @Shane Johnson that the cashflow seems a little low.

    I usually don't ask for closing cost, I just lowball the offer. But, you never know until you try. Make a polite, well written offer and you never know what you can get

    Your rehab estimates seem reasonable. You never know until you get started if the costs will be higher or lower, so keep that in mind and make sure you have access to capital or credit to double what your estimate is in case you find out more costs.

  • Hudson, WI · Member since 2012 · 189 posts · 30 votes
    12y

    Negotiate everything.

    Example - offer 50k they pay closing costs. They come back at 60k. You come back at 52k, you pay closing costs. They either come back with an offer, or say take it or leave it. If they come back with say 58k, come back at 54k you pay closing etc. If they come back with no, take it or leave it. You let them sweat it for a few days and take your offer. Last little tip, is maybe come in at exact number, say $52,365.00 or something, In my experience in business, exact numbers show there was effort and calculating in effect. 50,000 even sounds like your just tossing them an offer. This could be stupid, but I am superstitious. :)

    This is all assuming you are not competing against other offers.

  • Mark S.Pro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · KY · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 537 votes
    12y
    Lisa Phillips Thanks! Shane Johnson I'm right there with your line of thinking, buddy, but unfortunately there are other offers. I was advised by my realtor to submit my highest and best, so I did: $56,750 and asked for $1,250 in closing costs. I guess we'll see what happens!
  • Real Estate Investor · Arlington, VA · Member since 2012 · 300 posts · 277 votes
    12y

    @Mark S.

    and the rest...will be left up to the Fates .... :-)

    I actually like the thrill of the deals/negotiation, trying to see if you will win or not. Since I don't gamble, I guess this is how I get my kicks!

  • Hudson, WI · Member since 2012 · 189 posts · 30 votes
    12y

    Best of luck!

    I offered 82,400 5% down, on my home (hud auction) last year. 2 offers came in at 101k, one maybe both was cash. Both backed out for personal reasons. You just never know!

  • Mark S.Pro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · KY · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 537 votes
    12y
    Shane Johnson You're making me want to rescind my offer! Haha. I was really hoping to come in at $48,000 or $50,000, but if this other person is serious about the property, I just can't see taking it down for under $55,000. After crunching some numbers, I felt $56,750 is as high as I could go and feel good about it. There was someone on one of the podcasts a short time ago that was talking about putting in a ridiculous number of offers, some as low as like $1,200 or something like that. Now, THAT'S pretty awesome! I hope I'm not a sucker for putting in highest and best off the bat at the advice of my realtor. He's dealt with this listing agent before in multiple offer situations, and even though they set a deadline for everyone's highest and best and he came in well within that timeframe, they accepted an offer that came in before his and before the cut off because they liked it. I don't want to lose a property over a few thousand bucks because I was messing around at the beginning. Man, I hate multiple offer situations!
  • Mark S.Pro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · KY · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 537 votes
    12y

    So, I have the following two loan options on this property:

    Option 1
    15% down (no MI)
    5.25% interest rate
    $266/month payment

    or

    Option 2
    20% down
    4.875% interest rate
    $240/month payment

    The good ol' HP 10bII is not being good to me this afternoon. The difference in total interest paid over 30 years (assuming I don't pay it off sooner) is $6,535. The down payment savings in moving to 15% down is $2,837.

    Which should I choose??

  • Mark S.Pro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · KY · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 537 votes
    12y
    It looks like my thread dried up a little bit, so if I don't get any responses to this post, I'll probably let it go. There are two parts is like to address: THE FINANCING: I discussed these in my previous posts. My question is how to make sure you're comparing apples-to-apples with lenders in terms of fees, etc.? Do you just ask for a GFE from both? I have the lender mentioned previously doing HomePath for $995 and a local bank at 4.25% interest with almost triple the cost. THE OFFER As I mentioned, I submitted highest and best at $56,750 with $1,250 closing costs. They came back and said $56,750, no closing costs. I essentially made the same offer and went down to $55,500, no closing costs. I'm told that they (Fannie Mae) don't offer closing costs assistance anymore. Is that true???
  • Hudson, WI · Member since 2012 · 189 posts · 30 votes
    12y

    @Mark S.

    Does this mean you got the property?

    Anyway, it is easy math my friend.

    First question to ask yourself. Who's paying the interest? If its cash flowing, it sure as hell is not you. Its your tenant. So in my opinion, you shouldn't focus on it. The only part that matters is the cash flow.

    Whats more important to you. 5% of your capital in your pocket, or cash flowing an extra $16 a month? $192 a year more cash flow.

    $56,750 x 20% = $11,350
    $56,750 x 15%= $8512.50

    $2837.50 more in down payment. Almost 15 years to get that capital back out, at $192 a year. Wouldn't you rather have that capital for emergencies, vacancies, improvements, or acquisitions?

    If you can get financing at 15% and its only $16 more a month, to me, it is an easy decision.

  • Mark S.Pro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · KY · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 537 votes
    12y
    Shane Johnson Thanks for keeping my thread alive, haha. This is my first deal in progress, so I definitely need a bit of handholding. No, I do not have the official word that I got the property. Honestly, it's been a weird (and shady) process. Hopefully I get news soon that I got the property under contract. Thanks for your advice on the financing. I was leaning towards 15% down and putting the other money towards the mild rehab. Obviously I don't like the higher rate and slightly smaller monthly cashflow, but I think you're right that it's the better option, especially since I'm very tight on cash right now.
  • Hudson, WI · Member since 2012 · 189 posts · 30 votes
    12y

    Not a problem, this is a high traffic site. I am guilty of only participating in "recent forum posts" area myself :)

    I understand, and that is why I am helping as much as I am able. I am new to all of this and learn more every day myself.

    You can read all day about both ends of the spectrum as far as leverage it all out, or pay it all off, etc, etc. In my opinion, as a younger investor, I prefer cash in pocket, and will risk a little more to do so. Especially with interest rates so low. I have this uncontrollable desire to keep liquid cash available, even if it will cost a little bit. If the difference in cash flow, interest rate, and debt pay down was much more significant between your two options, I would consider putting more down. In this case, its not enticing enough. (again, just my opinion :) )

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