CASH FLOW: Why you have been analyzing your deals all wrong.

CASH FLOW: Why you have been analyzing your deals all wrong.

Andrew PostellPro Member
Lender · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2016 · 8k+ posts · 6k+ votes

This might be my most controversial post ever…that is, until you see what I have to say.

And what I’m talking about is cash flow – and you’ve been lied to about it. Ok, maybe not LIED about it. But it has been GROSSLY exaggerated. I’ve seen the same articles you have. The same books. The same videos. “Just sit back and relax! Collect mailbox money!” That might be possible for someone with significant means but for the average real estate investor this isn’t realistic. Especially in this environment. Real estate is difficult, it is not a “get-rich-quick-scheme” but if you do participate in it then real estate will be one of the best investments you can make. As long as you have the right expectations.

Cash flow is NOT the most important piece of the equation. And I’m going to show you why. First, some historical perspective.

If you have been investing in the past 10 years the current environment is VERY foreign to you. But for those of us been doing this for a while, we’ve seen it before. And if you are “newer” then get used to this. This occurs every 8-12 years. If you learn from this one, you’ll be better prepared for the next one. This is where we make our money. Pre-Housing Crises (pre-2008) interest rates for investment properties were 6.5%-7%. Cashflow wasn’t even part of the discussion. Frankly, neither was the interest rate! Pre-9/11 rates were 7%-8% for investment properties. Everyone knew the score. If you wanted to be a full time investor then you flipped properties. That’s what you did. But if you kept a couple of properties a year, then in the long run you would be very wealthy. Only in the past few years has “cash flow” even been a strategy. But now that prices are so high, interest rates are high, insurance premiums have shot through the roof, etc. many investors are wondering how to make this work. I’ve had people tell me “I’m only buying a property if I cash flow $500 per month”. Ok….I guess I’ll see you in about 5 years? Meanwhile, the rest of us are becoming millionaires while you wait on the sidelines. And at no fault of their own – cashflow is what they were SOLD on.

Here's what I want you to understand about “buy and hold” residential real estate:

  • Let’s use a single family home with a property value of $300,000
  • Let’s use an initial loan amount of $240,000
  • Let’s use an interest rate of 7.25%
  • And I’m going to give you $150 of cash flow per month
  • Use a 5% appreciation amount for your property

Let’s see what happens after 5 years:

After 5 years…

  • $150 of cash flow per month = $9,000
  • Your mortgage has been paid down to $227,000 = $13,000
  • Your property is now worth $382,000 = $82,000

So that’s $9,000 of cash flow, $13,000 of principle buy down, and $82,000 of appreciation. We make money in 3 ways with “buy and hold” properties…and cash flow is the smallest piece!

Will you cash flow in this environment currently? No, you will not. At least, I want that to be your expectation. Make your offer a little lower because of it. Also, don’t forget you will increase your rents in year 2, year 3, year 4, etc. So you WILL cashflow eventually but go into the property expecting not to cashflow now. And then you are still going to make $95,000 on a property. Remember Brandon Turner’s article on “How to Make $100,000 per year” – you can read it HERE.  Don't forget about it.  

If you analyze properties on their "Year 1 Cash Flow" then you are going to miss the boat.  Buyer's have all the power now.  It's not your fault someone is asking too much for their property!  Just adjust your numbers on your offer to account for the difference.  Don't miss out on the opportunity that's in front of you.

Thanks for reading!

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Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
3y

And frankly, BP played a huge role in selling cash flow. The original owner Josh Dorkin pushed cash flow a lot, because he has seen what happens when you bank on appreciation and it goes the wrong way in the wake of 2008. And for a while this worked like magic, real estate was basically a preputium mobile throwing of money like an ATM and people quit their job and traveled the world. Remember the "what's your freedom number?" discussions?

Now we are back to RE investing is actually hard, takes a very long time and you need capital to get started. I would love to see BP's user data, as undoubtedly it will shrink over the next years as REI is slowly falling out of fashion as a get started easy thing!

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  • Cleveland, OH · Member since 2022 · 826 posts · 578 votes
    2y
    Quote from @James Hamling:
    Quote from @Mario Morales:

    @Andrew Postell ok, but if you don't cash flow, you schedule E doesn't look too sexy to lenders when looking to borrow for your next deal?


    Let's ask this in a real-world A-B context. 

    Which do you think financing underwriting would most prefer and be approving?: 

    A- Person who has $250mnth "cash-flow" on a property, with meeting just minimal down. Which in all likelihood is NOT net-profit cash-flow but invested capital recoup cash-flow. 

    - OR -

    B- Person who has net-0 "cash-flow", but is utilizing 1031 fund's to effect 25%-35% down payment position. And/or flush with additional equity or capital position from liquidating, or holding, equitable profit's in previous/other properties. 

    Keep in mind, underwriting work's where $100 "income" is NOT $100 additional monthly "affordability" in financing. A portion of that $100 is.  

    In general, every $100 per month in additional income = $4,700.00 in additional purchase $ total. 

    So, that $250mnth cash-flow = additional purchase power of $11,750.00 

    With that math in mind, which would look "more sexy" to an underwriter, a cash-flow with value "as-much-as" $11,750 purchase power, which is often credited at 70% so more like $8,225.00, OR the additional $20k, $30k, $50k+ down payment/ reduction of borrowed fund's? 

    "Pyramiding" via equitable gain's is the prevailing "super-power" to growing a portfolio. "Cash-flow" is of the operational leg, capital investment recoup, and later down the road "dividend returns".    

    "Cash-flow" is not a significant empowerment of acquisition until/unless one is at market of scale. Market of scale is not 3, 4, 7 odd unit's but when one crosses the threshold of a portfolio being self-sustaining, which often is around the ~25 unit range if SFR. MFH often ~40/80+.


     That was incredibly insightful. 

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Benjamin Sulka:
    Quote from @James Hamling:
    Quote from @Mario Morales:

    @Andrew Postell ok, but if you don't cash flow, you schedule E doesn't look too sexy to lenders when looking to borrow for your next deal?


    Let's ask this in a real-world A-B context. 

    Which do you think financing underwriting would most prefer and be approving?: 

    A- Person who has $250mnth "cash-flow" on a property, with meeting just minimal down. Which in all likelihood is NOT net-profit cash-flow but invested capital recoup cash-flow. 

    - OR -

    B- Person who has net-0 "cash-flow", but is utilizing 1031 fund's to effect 25%-35% down payment position. And/or flush with additional equity or capital position from liquidating, or holding, equitable profit's in previous/other properties. 

    Keep in mind, underwriting work's where $100 "income" is NOT $100 additional monthly "affordability" in financing. A portion of that $100 is.  

    In general, every $100 per month in additional income = $4,700.00 in additional purchase $ total. 

    So, that $250mnth cash-flow = additional purchase power of $11,750.00 

    With that math in mind, which would look "more sexy" to an underwriter, a cash-flow with value "as-much-as" $11,750 purchase power, which is often credited at 70% so more like $8,225.00, OR the additional $20k, $30k, $50k+ down payment/ reduction of borrowed fund's? 

    "Pyramiding" via equitable gain's is the prevailing "super-power" to growing a portfolio. "Cash-flow" is of the operational leg, capital investment recoup, and later down the road "dividend returns".    

    "Cash-flow" is not a significant empowerment of acquisition until/unless one is at market of scale. Market of scale is not 3, 4, 7 odd unit's but when one crosses the threshold of a portfolio being self-sustaining, which often is around the ~25 unit range if SFR. MFH often ~40/80+.


     That was incredibly insightful. 


    that’s similar to dividend compounding 

     Also guys , appreciating works in favor using exponential logic , so it is more beneficial if you buy house in the most appreciable market in the most expensive place.


    that’s why I can only smile when someone in LA trying to do appreciation investment in Ohio while they live in LA. They got all the math wrong lol

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
    Quote from @Benjamin Sulka:
    Quote from @James Hamling:
    Quote from @Mario Morales:

    @Andrew Postell ok, but if you don't cash flow, you schedule E doesn't look too sexy to lenders when looking to borrow for your next deal?


    Let's ask this in a real-world A-B context. 

    Which do you think financing underwriting would most prefer and be approving?: 

    A- Person who has $250mnth "cash-flow" on a property, with meeting just minimal down. Which in all likelihood is NOT net-profit cash-flow but invested capital recoup cash-flow. 

    - OR -

    B- Person who has net-0 "cash-flow", but is utilizing 1031 fund's to effect 25%-35% down payment position. And/or flush with additional equity or capital position from liquidating, or holding, equitable profit's in previous/other properties. 

    Keep in mind, underwriting work's where $100 "income" is NOT $100 additional monthly "affordability" in financing. A portion of that $100 is.  

    In general, every $100 per month in additional income = $4,700.00 in additional purchase $ total. 

    So, that $250mnth cash-flow = additional purchase power of $11,750.00 

    With that math in mind, which would look "more sexy" to an underwriter, a cash-flow with value "as-much-as" $11,750 purchase power, which is often credited at 70% so more like $8,225.00, OR the additional $20k, $30k, $50k+ down payment/ reduction of borrowed fund's? 

    "Pyramiding" via equitable gain's is the prevailing "super-power" to growing a portfolio. "Cash-flow" is of the operational leg, capital investment recoup, and later down the road "dividend returns".    

    "Cash-flow" is not a significant empowerment of acquisition until/unless one is at market of scale. Market of scale is not 3, 4, 7 odd unit's but when one crosses the threshold of a portfolio being self-sustaining, which often is around the ~25 unit range if SFR. MFH often ~40/80+.


     That was incredibly insightful. 


    that’s similar to dividend compounding 

     Also guys , appreciating works in favor using exponential logic , so it is more beneficial if you buy house in the most appreciable market in the most expensive place.


    that’s why I can only smile when someone in LA trying to do appreciation investment in Ohio while they live in LA. They got all the math wrong lol


    Yeah, I always get a chuckel when someone is bragging to ~12% cap or something like that, followed with OH. Yeah, another $47.00 this month, lol.

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Benjamin Sulka:
    Quote from @James Hamling:
    Quote from @Mario Morales:

    @Andrew Postell ok, but if you don't cash flow, you schedule E doesn't look too sexy to lenders when looking to borrow for your next deal?


    Let's ask this in a real-world A-B context. 

    Which do you think financing underwriting would most prefer and be approving?: 

    A- Person who has $250mnth "cash-flow" on a property, with meeting just minimal down. Which in all likelihood is NOT net-profit cash-flow but invested capital recoup cash-flow. 

    - OR -

    B- Person who has net-0 "cash-flow", but is utilizing 1031 fund's to effect 25%-35% down payment position. And/or flush with additional equity or capital position from liquidating, or holding, equitable profit's in previous/other properties. 

    Keep in mind, underwriting work's where $100 "income" is NOT $100 additional monthly "affordability" in financing. A portion of that $100 is.  

    In general, every $100 per month in additional income = $4,700.00 in additional purchase $ total. 

    So, that $250mnth cash-flow = additional purchase power of $11,750.00 

    With that math in mind, which would look "more sexy" to an underwriter, a cash-flow with value "as-much-as" $11,750 purchase power, which is often credited at 70% so more like $8,225.00, OR the additional $20k, $30k, $50k+ down payment/ reduction of borrowed fund's? 

    "Pyramiding" via equitable gain's is the prevailing "super-power" to growing a portfolio. "Cash-flow" is of the operational leg, capital investment recoup, and later down the road "dividend returns".    

    "Cash-flow" is not a significant empowerment of acquisition until/unless one is at market of scale. Market of scale is not 3, 4, 7 odd unit's but when one crosses the threshold of a portfolio being self-sustaining, which often is around the ~25 unit range if SFR. MFH often ~40/80+.


     That was incredibly insightful. 


    Why thank you Benjamin, you are clearly as wise and brilliant as handsome, with many leather-bound books and an apartment that smells of rich mahogany!

  • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    2y

    I take the somewhat in-between stance. Cash flow does not need to be high but has to be atleast 5% COC and in a rent growing/appreciating area to be a buy. Same for my clients, I never push 0 or negative cashflow deals its too risky a strategy.

  • Andrew PostellPro Member
    OP
    Lender · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2016 · 8k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    2y

    Thought I would bump this again.  Subject seems to be popping up regularly.

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Andrew Postell:

    Thought I would bump this again.  Subject seems to be popping up regularly.


     "Bumping" your own thread?  Common man...  :)

  • Andrew PostellPro Member
    OP
    Lender · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2016 · 8k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    2y

    @Cody L.  I appreciate the continued support ;)

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Andrew Postell:

    @Cody L.  I appreciate the continued support ;)


     Yeah, I realized the irony in my reply also bumping the thread.  Doah!  Ya got me

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