Questions after reading around the site...

Questions after reading around the site...

Brownstown, MI · Member since 2014 · 344 posts · 98 votes

Hi Guys,

By the way, I'd love to connect with everybody from my area, so add me if interested (Detroit Metro Michigan).

So I read through the 8 chapters on the site, and have some questions, that probably have been answered in the thousands of posts around here, so I apologize for my redundancy.

I have 1 rental already which was a conversion from my primary in 2011 when I moved into my new home.  I was viewing it as just getting a renter in there to cover costs, but now I am wanting to start a business and grow wealth over time...that's my goal in a nutshell.  So, first act of business, I am about ready to initiate a refi on it from my 15 year mortgage (11 years left) back out 30 years which will generate 320 a month in cash flow.

But, after calling the credit union and reading the beginners guide, I came up with some questions.

I asked the loan agent how many investment properties I could own.  She said up to 10 free and clear.  She said I can only carry 4 mortgages at a time though.  I have read elsewhere that others have heard this, but then there was discussion that it wasn't true and 4 mortgages through 1 bank only, but then you could go to another bank and get 4 more, and so on and so forth.  Is this true?

And if I owned 10 investment properties outright, and wanted to own an 11th, why couldn't I?  Does some law prevent me from owning 11?  I find that one hard to believe.

If I convert myself into an LLC, couldn't the business own infinite?

I have read about using the other financing options like hard money and such, but what if I just wanted to use 30 year mortgages every time?  Am I limited?

The 50% rule struck me as a surprise, and the real world example wasn't pertaining to SFRs which is what I'm interested in owning for now. In my area for a 100k home, you can't get 2k a month and pay the PITI of 800 on a 20% down 30 year conventional out of half that and have enough cash flow. That rule doesn't seem to work out, and 1000 a month for repairs seems insanely high. On my current rental I probably spend 500 a year on the rental for maintenance, and that's with having to call a plumber or fix the garage door, or do something I can't do (and I'm fairly handy). I put a new driveway in for 3500 2 years ago, so that hurt (with negative cash flow), but unless it's a driveway, furnace, roof, or some odd expensive issue like foundation problems, I would likely not run into a 10k repair.

I was looking around on the local city websites and it is apparent that every city now does 'rental inspections' and 'occupancy inspections', since 2010?  I had never heard of those.  Do you (other investors) try to follow every rule?  I mean, is any house ever really up to code?  I can tell you that my rental was never 'rental inspected' and the rule was in place at the time.  LIke i said, my renters moved in dec of 2010 just after christmas, and I was never contacted or anything by the city, or fined, etc.  

When we bought this home (8 year old home) in late 2010, the rule was also in place, and no occupancy inspection was done.  What is your take on all of these inspections?  Seems like money grabs.  I get that you want to avoid blight in your city, but codes change constantly.  Who would make money if they had to keep up with every code?

Even this home, build in 2003, is now out of code as it doesn't have Eggress, and I"ll be damned if I'm going to add one of those leaky SOB's.  My neighbors have them on their new homes (built after 06) and they all complain of leaks.

When calculating Cash on Cash ROI, the example given in the guide was very simple, 20k down is the investment, take your annual income, subtract PITI and expenses, divide by the 20k and there's your ROI.

But, should I be taking the principal from the mortgage payment and adding that to the investment, since it is going into the property and is technically my investment money still?  Which means, then i'd need to add the yearly interest (i did this with amort schedule, actually did it for 10 years out), and add the yearly principal, and get that calculation.

It's a more detailed calculation, but is it called something other than cash on cash ROI?

I had tax questions up the wazoo while sitting at my cubicle at work today but I can't remember any of them right now! 

I'm starting to assemble a spreadsheet and I'm starting to toy with scenarios, like if I buy a rental every other year for 5 years, then one a year for 5 more years, what's my net worth?  Stuff like that.  That is a lot of fun...

Thanks guys for all of your help.  By the way, for you local investors, the guide said to offer something when starting friendships.  I am a hard worker, and fairly handy, and anal about my work, and am more than willing to lend a hand if needed.  Just sayin...


Thank you much.

Dave

0Reply
10 views

8 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Real Estate Investor · Cheyenne, WY · Member since 2014 · 71 posts · 37 votes
    11y
    David Roberts You have a lot of questions, which is a good thing! You may want to try and break them up into multiple topics as I suspect this thread will probably end up on focussing on one or two. A lot of these questions could be found in the search, but I'm sure someone will be willing to answer again :) I'm no expert at any of your questions though, just have an understanding from what I have learned here, so I will leave the answering to those who know!
  • Brownstown, MI · Member since 2014 · 344 posts · 98 votes
    11y

    Yes, as I was asking some questions I started thinking up more, sorry about that. 

    Been reading around for the past 2 hours and thought about my own rental, and how that 50% rule makes a lot more sense than when I asked about it earlier today. I still don't know how, given in my area, I could achieve the 50% rule on an SFR, knowing what the rent people are getting is, and the cost of the homes.

    But I guess if that is truly the answer, then I don't buy rentals in my area.  After doing the analysis of my rental, one big purchase (a driveway) pretty much put me at the 50% mark assuming I was at 300 a month cash flow (which I haven't been, since it's on a 15 year and i'm actually at a -20 a month).  About to fix that though, and initiate a refi out 30 years.  Then I'll be at 320 a month cash flow, but following the 50% rule, I would be at high risk.  The roof is aging, but every other big ticket is newish or new.  But it only takes 1 big purchase to kill 3 years of 500 bucks in expenses and make the calculations ugly!

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    11y

    Sure glad you forgot most of your questions, take a hint, ask in chucks instead of in a dissertation, asking more than 3 questions is a pain for those trying to answer.

    Financing terms and limitations refer to secondary market financing, after 4 it becomes difficult and other sources might be better. Begin by understanding types of loans and various sources for financing, at a bank in the commercial area you can have as many loans as you can qualify for, if it gets to be to may, they will consolidate those loans.

    Call your planning and zoning or building regulations department for requirements for each rental placed in service, I nor anyone else in the forms can give your the right answer concerning your local compliance requirements. As to making money due to compliance, you city doesn't care if you make money, hopefully such requirements put slumlords out of business. If you can't can't enter RE at a level to provide safe and affordable products, please get out. Not just you, that speaks to everyone.  

    Egress is not a leaky SOB. And you've been in RE for 8 years?

    No, look up cash on cash, the true ROI is more advanced than that and is useless to you, you can never project it and history doesn't matter, either you're happy with what you get and if not, sell and do something else. Search "economic benefits" for a better view of RE.

    Your taxes are more in depth than simple questions, we can't answer those unless you are specific as to the tax code.

    Yes, paying down principle is shown in the value of your assets, interest is an expense as you pay it. on a cash basis. Principle paid is not income, it doesn't increase your cash return as your loan obligation remains the same or nearly the same, it shows in the balance sheet, not your income statement.

    Play with your numbers, run spread sheets, imagine what ever you want, you're day dreaming and wishing, don't have time for that and neither do you as it doesn't do anything for you in reality, when you get back to reality study laws, compliance, ordinance requirements like those you asked about so you actually learn something. The more time you spend playing with a calculator about financial aspects that will take years to learn and will most likely never be of any benefit, the more time you screwed off productive time.

    Please, just ask one question at a time, I'm rarely this bored to the time to address such long posts!  :)

  • Brownstown, MI · Member since 2014 · 344 posts · 98 votes
    11y

    Well if that's not giving it to me straight, what is? right?

    I bought my first primary home in 2003.  Converted it in dec 2010 to a rental and moved to my current home when homes were 40% discounted.

    I've never owned an egress, just stating what the neighbors are saying that had theirs put in with their new construction homes.  I'm not a contractors and don't have tons of experience in that area.  I only know what I've experienced.

    I understand it is a good thing to keep slumlords out and it benefits the city to keep property values up.  I was just wondering how serious most investors take rental inspections or occupancy inspections.  

    Like I said, I had never even heard of those inspections until I happened to look at the city websites around me and found that there are those.  I even opened a rental inspection checklist, and it seems that other than new construction, 99% of homes are somewhere out of code.  I would venture to guess most homeowners attempt to replace something that 'needs a permit' at some point, without getting the permit.  Codes change very often, and if homes aren't updated, then aren't they out of code?  This could be a crazy expense to an investor looking to rent the home.   Would be wonderful to have everything all legal-like, it just seems insanely difficult to do that, all while sticking with that 50% rule.

  • Real Estate Investor · Madison Heights, MI · Member since 2014 · 693 posts · 216 votes
    11y

    Please tell me where in Michigan you can buy a 100k property and get 2k a month for.  That's just not possible in any area.  Why would someone pay 24k a year for a property worth 100?

    If you want to get into this business you need to look at honest numbers and be honest with yourself.  It is only you that you are fooling. 

    Also whoever said you can only have 10 properties is wrong.  Either you completely misunderstood what she was saying or she is very dumb.

    I'll go with you didn't understand what she said

  • Brownstown, MI · Member since 2014 · 344 posts · 98 votes
    11y

    I agree,  and that's what I said.  I don't see how that 2% rule is accurate around me.  I can't seem to get the 50% rule to work sensibly either for this area.  Following that rule,  on a 100k home 20% down at say 1200 a month,  thatt leaves 600 to pay mortgage and cash flow.  I'd have to have a rent of about 1700 to get just 300 cash flow a month.  Can't see it.  Wouldd have to get that house at a huge discount... But then likely big expenses up front for that cheap.  I Understood what she said.  She was just wrong then.  She sounded a little unsure  but then said, it was correct.  Oh well.  I've had  tto set financial advisors straight at Wells Fargo before on their own 401k rules so why would I expect anything else?

  • Dawn AnastasiPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @David Roberts:

    I agree,  and that's what I said.  I don't see how that 2% rule is accurate around me.  I can't seem to get the 50% rule to work sensibly either for this area.  Following that rule,  on a 100k home 20% down at say 1200 a month,  thatt leaves 600 to pay mortgage and cash flow.  I'd have to have a rent of about 1700 to get just 300 cash flow a month.  Can't see it.  Wouldd have to get that house at a huge discount... But then likely big expenses up front for that cheap.  I Understood what she said.  She was just wrong then.  She sounded a little unsure  but then said, it was correct.  Oh well.  I've had  tto set financial advisors straight at Wells Fargo before on their own 401k rules so why would I expect anything else?

    The point of the 50% rule is to say the operating expenses will work out to about 50% of the gross rents when averaged over time.  That's expenses -- your mortgage includes principal pay down.

  • Investor · Chelsea, MI · Member since 2013 · 350 posts · 138 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @David Roberts:

    I agree,  and that's what I said.  I don't see how that 2% rule is accurate around me.  I can't seem to get the 50% rule to work sensibly either for this area.  Following that rule,  on a 100k home 20% down at say 1200 a month,  thatt leaves 600 to pay mortgage and cash flow.  I'd have to have a rent of about 1700 to get just 300 cash flow a month.  Can't see it.  Wouldd have to get that house at a huge discount... But then likely big expenses up front for that cheap.  I Understood what she said.  She was just wrong then.  She sounded a little unsure  but then said, it was correct.  Oh well.  I've had  tto set financial advisors straight at Wells Fargo before on their own 401k rules so why would I expect anything else?

     It's not whether the 50% rule works or not, it's whether the property makes sense as an investment given the fact that the 50% rule will occur (approximately, over time).  The whole idea is to not calculate cash flow just based on rent minus mortgage payment or that to assume the cash flow in a good month is the true cash flow, because as you saw, one intermittent big expense can wipe out a long line of moderate cash flow.  

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.