Setting Up Family Partnership / Property Management Company

Setting Up Family Partnership / Property Management Company

Quakertown, PA · Member since 2016 · 8 posts · 2 votes

Hello Everyone,


I've spent hours and hours researching this topic and haven't come up with a clear answer. 

Myself, my brother, and my father are starting to invest in real estate and we need to come up with a way to organize ourselves into a formal entity.  Currently our plan is to:

1. Purchase properties in our individual names and get conventional financing, i.e. My father buys the first house and is the sole name on the title and takes out a mortgage in his name.  Depending on the deal my brother and I will pay for 1/3 of the down payment each.  Even though on paper the house is only in one of our names, it is understood that everything is going to be an even 1/3 split from purchase price, to expenses and profit.  I realize that this isn't the safest way to do things, but we are just going to have to trust each other at first.

2.What I would like to do is set up a 3-person entity that will deal with all of the management duties for our rentals.  We plan to manage only our own properties with this entity.  The entity will not hold the property in it's name, it will only serve as the management company.  What I'm thinking is we get the lease in the company name, have rent paid to the company, and then pay the mortgage and all expenses from the company.  Whatever is left over at the end of the the year will just be distributed equally between the 3 partners.  

My questions:

1. Is an LLC the best way to do this in Pennsylvania? I

2. If there is profit at the end of the year, can we just pay the profit into the mortgages and avoid paying any taxes?

3. I've read that an LLC can not be represented by an agent in PA court, so we would need an attorney to file evictions, etc?

4. None of us are brokers and don't plan to become brokers, would it be an issue for us to simply manage our own, and only our own, properties through the LLC?

5. Are there any glaring issues I'm completely missing?

I understand that all of this may be overkill at first, but I want to do things correctly from the start because we plan to be in this for the long haul.  We are closing on our first deal next month and hope to acquire a couple more units in 2017.

Thank you in advance for your help.

Doug

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Investor · Reading, PA · Member since 2012 · 9 posts · 1 vote
9y
Originally posted by @Doug Maye:
*snip*

1. Purchase properties in our individual names and get conventional financing, i.e. My father buys the first house and is the sole name on the title and takes out a mortgage in his name.  Depending on the deal my brother and I will pay for 1/3 of the down payment each.  Even though on paper the house is only in one of our names, it is understood that everything is going to be an even 1/3 split from purchase price, to expenses and profit.  I realize that this isn't the safest way to do things, but we are just going to have to trust 

Just curious, if you're setting everything up as a 3-way partnership, why not title the properties as such? You don't all have to be on the mortgage to be on the title.

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  • Real Estate Consultant · Lancaster, CA · Member since 2014 · 423 posts · 223 votes
    9y

    I'm not familiar with Pennsylvania law (and I don't give legal advice). if you are going to be active participants in the management company, then set it up as an LLC and pay each person a salary that is representative of the work performed. You will wind up pay FICA tax on the wages, but any remaining profit at the end of the year can be distributed as dividends that are not subject to federal income tax (your LLC will need to elect the S-Corp tax designation in order for you to distribute dividends not subject to Self-Employment taxes).

    I would put each property that you purchase into a separate Land Trust. You can designate the beneficiary of each trust as either the three of you or as the LLC, or however you want. You can designate the LLC as the Trustee.

    Hope this helps.  As always, consult a good local real estate attorney.

    Stay Blessed!

  • Toledo, OH · Member since 2016 · 2 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    Thanks a lot Michael and Doug. I'm looking to do virtually the same thing in Ohio. Are you aware of any differences in Ohio law vs PA law?

    Doug - lets connect on this topic as we get further along!

  • Rental Property Investor · MD · Member since 2016 · 7 posts · 3 votes
    9y

    I am very interested in this topic, as well!

  • Investor · St Augustine, FL · Member since 2016 · 136 posts · 126 votes
    9y

    @Doug Maye, My wife and I are sitting with another accountant Tuesday to discuss this exact topic.... from the business/taxation side. We are then chatting with a couple attorneys in the next week or two as well to "tighten up" our entities and get our PA located properties appropriately aligned. We have a couple now, unfortunately with PA transfer tax (also the most regressive in the nation so Im told) at 2% Im going to have to put out a little bit to do this correctly. Im closing on another triplex on the 9th, so time is of the essence.

    If you'd like to chat about what were learning feel free to ping me off-line. Leave me your number and we can chat further. Im one exit north of you!

  • Investor · Reading, PA · Member since 2012 · 9 posts · 1 vote
    9y
    Originally posted by @Doug Maye:
    *snip*

    1. Purchase properties in our individual names and get conventional financing, i.e. My father buys the first house and is the sole name on the title and takes out a mortgage in his name.  Depending on the deal my brother and I will pay for 1/3 of the down payment each.  Even though on paper the house is only in one of our names, it is understood that everything is going to be an even 1/3 split from purchase price, to expenses and profit.  I realize that this isn't the safest way to do things, but we are just going to have to trust 

    Just curious, if you're setting everything up as a 3-way partnership, why not title the properties as such? You don't all have to be on the mortgage to be on the title.

  • Quakertown, PA · Member since 2016 · 8 posts · 2 votes
    9y

    Thank you everyone for the advice.  There's definitely a lot to learn in this business.  

    @Matt A. - I greatly appreciate your input and would definitely like to hear about what you learn with your advisors.

    @Steve Oxenreider That would be the best solution, but I was under the impression that a bank wouldn't give a mortgage unless all of the owners were on the note.  Basically my father is the initial money man, being he is going to pay cash for the property and then after a 6 month seasoning we will get financing.  If its possible for us all to be on the title, and only have my father on the note, that would be perfect.

  • Investor · Reading, PA · Member since 2012 · 9 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    @Doug Maye I know my lender told me that was not the case. Lending being as complicated as it is, I would certainly visit any potential lenders and see what they have to say on the subject.

  • Attorney · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Hi @Doug Maye:

    The basic idea of creating an LLC to manage the rentals that you personally own is common. But I do think you need to talk to a lawyer and a CPA since your scenario raises many issues that are difficult to discuss with knowing all the facts.

    To answer your questions:

    1. Not sure if it is the “best” way, but it is a common way.

    2. Not sure if I understand this question. Are you planning to take the profits and make additional payments to the mortgage? You would need to ask a CPA as to whether doing so has any tax advantages. I’m not sure if it does.

    3. Pa.R.C.P.M.D.J. No. 207 says:

    4. You may run into the problems. The relevant law says that an owner may self-manage, but the LLC itself is technically not the owner of the property. I don't think there is any caselaw on this yet, but I think one could reasonably argue that you and your family violated the law by doing so.

    One related issues here is something called the "participation theory." The basic idea is that if the officer or shareholder of a corporation commits the wrongdoing, then the victim can hold both the corporation and the actor liable. So even if you are okay with the broker issue, you may run into other liability issues since---despite the LLC being the property manager---you and your family are the actual humans acting on behalf of the LLC.

    5. I have some concerns about how you and your family intend to own the property. It seems like a very messy way to own a property especially when it comes tax time. I would also be careful if any of you are married since even if they are not directly involved, they may ultimately get a say if there is a major life event (e.g., divorce, estate administration, etc.). 

    On a related note, why are you and your family shy of being named in the note? For liability reasons? 

  • Accountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    You definitely need to spend some time with an accountant and an attorney to structure a family partnership. They are not 100% straight forward.

  • Quakertown, PA · Member since 2016 · 8 posts · 2 votes
    9y

    @Chris K. Wow thank you very much for taking the time to write out that detailed response.  I truly appreciate it and owe you one.  A few responses:

    2. I've come to realize I had no idea what I was talking about when I first wrote that question.  I was under the impression that mortgage principal was tax deductible. I've now learned that isn't the case at all.

    3. That makes me happy to hear. Hopefully I don't have to find out about this for awhile.

    4. I read this on another thread :  "Sign a master lease between the owner and the managingLLC. This way, the LLC is a controlling interest in the property to get around any statutes requiring a manager to be a real estate agent. The master lease will pay the owner 90% of gross income after expenses. Or 99-100% if you don't want to keep any money in the LLC. Then, everything to do with the property is done through and by the LLC... with a check or deposit going to the owner every month."

    I'm not sure if this is applicable.  Even if this set up was in violation of any rules, would it be likely that I could be reported?

    5. Yes I do agree that this is a really convoluted set up.  I'm hoping for this first property to be the only one set up this way but right now both my brother and I are reluctant to be on the note for a few reasons.  My brother is 21 and most likely would not be approved for a mortgage.  I am about to graduate dental school and hope to purchase a paractice in a few years.  Until then I don't want to have any other debt on my record that could interfere with getting a practice loan.

    Thank you again!

  • Attorney · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Hi @Doug Maye: 

    4. That's a tough question to answer. Not to be cynical, but essentially the State Real Estate Commission has a strong interest in protecting business for brokers and others associated with the real-estate industry. So they have an incentive to take steps to encourage people from hiring licensed professional management companies. Now I don't have the law in front of me, but I recall the maximum fine being around $10,000 per violation. While that doesn't mean the Commission would impose a $10,000 fine, I suppose the risk is there. The other things to note is that a disgruntled tenants---if they are clever enough---could file a report to the Commonwealth notifying it of such violations. Again, it's unclear whether anyone would actually follow up on the report, but the risk is there.

    In terms of the master-lease idea, I suppose that might work. If I understand it correctly, I believe what you intend to do is enter into a lease with the LLC, and the LLC will enter into a sublease with the tenant. Unfortunately, I don't believe any court has addressed whether such ideas violate the law as written. Until a court affirmatively rules on this issue, no one can say with 100% certainty that the idea works.

    5. Congratulations on graduating from dental school! I understand the concern. Depending on the Bank, it might be okay with your brother being 21. It will depend on the exact loan in question and your existing relationship with the bank. As for you and your ability to get a practice loan, that's a very tricky question. I don't know your plans for real-estate investing (and what your job prospects are straight from dental school), but buying the rental property may make you a more "attractive" applicant for a practice loan. 

    For most recent dental graduates, the ideal path is probably: (1) finding an associate position for few years to get the feel for practice; and (2) finding an older dentist that is not only willing to sell a practice but stay on for few years and finance a part of the deal. If you want to discuss that aspect of your plans in greater detail, feel free to shoot me a PM. 

  • Quakertown, PA · Member since 2016 · 8 posts · 2 votes
    9y

    @Chris K.

    I certainly do not wish to step on the toes of real estate professionals.  I just want to be able to manage our own rentals as professionally as possible.  I will definitely do some further research to make sure I don't get ourselves into hot water.  

    I'm planning on working as an associate for a few years, but just want to keep my options open at this early point in my career.  I truly do have a passion for real estate and hope that this can be a sizable part of my life into the future.  That's most of the reason why I want to get this all set up correctly from the beginning.  If I planned to just dabble with one or two units I wouldn't bother with these structures.

    Thanks!

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