Found a small, rented cash-flowing property. What would you do?

Found a small, rented cash-flowing property. What would you do?

Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes

 I have found what could possibly be a great starter investment house, or possibly not.    I, of course, would want to see it in person, have it inspected, etc and do my due diligence before moving further. 

 On the surface the numbers look good, though.  I'm curious what you more experienced investors would think...

It isn't in a stellar neighborhood, but it isn't quite the hood either. Looking at Google street view it appears that all houses nearby are similar in size and age, and from my personal experience of the area, it is a lower-middle working class neighborhood. Some houses are sort of run down, but others are obviously proud owner-occupants with fresh paint and nice landscaping. The view across the street is of a public elementary/middle school PE field, and the immediate neighbor to one side is extremely well maintained, the other side is decent. Down the road a few blocks further from the schools there are some rough looking houses here and there, but it doesn't look like a neighborhood you'd get randomly shot in or anything (maybe if you really tried to piss someone off), just that some owners may be too low income to properly maintain. I've looked up crime reports in the area as well. I'm sure like most lower income neighborhoods, there are a scattering of property crimes and such reported over the past 6 months. There's one condo type complex a few blocks away with 4-5 assaults reported within the last 6 months....but without looking into it further they could even all stem from the same rowdy person. The other crimes are either criminal mischief or theft. But they are spaced out in location and time, so it doesn't appear to be a crime-ridden hood per se. I may not choose to live there personally, having kids and being used to a suburban HOA neighborhood and nicer house myself, but in my kidless and poorer days I likely wouldn't have minded at all, and I wouldn't be intimidated in the least to manage the property and tenants myself.

The house is a 2/1, 804sqft built in 1948.  Wood framed on a crawl space. Smaller than what I would like ideally, but it is rented through 12/31/2017 for $900/mo and listed for $67,500 which includes "$32,000 in repairs" which include a newer metal roof, new flooring, new zone AC (the type with a compressor outside and a single wall-mounted evaporator/blower inside.  Not quite central air, but better than window units.  With that small of sqft it is probably more than adequate).  

The house doesn't appear to have been fully "renovated" but looks solid and in good repair inside and out. Two of the larger items, metal roof and AC, are both newish (no exact year replaced given in listing) and would likely have plenty of life left. The lot is about 5000sqft and has mature trees but not much else other than leaves and dirt. No HOA and property tax last year was $553 (not homesteaded, owned by an investment company currently). Most of the nicer homes I've looked at would be nearly impossible to get to the 2% monthly rent to value. Many around here are closer to or less than 1% ($175k houses that could rent for maybe $1600, etc). So although this one isn't being sold at far below it's value, the rent/value ratio is quite a bit better than many $100-125k houses I've seen.

From numbers I have run, it appears as if a 90% loan at full asking price and 7% interest would come out to about $515/mo with taxes and insurance.  On such a small house, putting away $350-$400/mo for a year or two would easily cover most anything that may pop up (again, thanks to the metal roof and new AC).   Both the Redfin and Zillow estimates of value are about in line with asking price, so I would of course want to get it at a discount. Recent sales in the area of similar homes go from the low 30's for full gut job foreclosures to closer to $100k on slightly larger move in ready homes.  Zillow predicts a 12% increase in value over the next year. Although I know I can't count on that to make the deal work, and am not planning to buy with appreciation as a driving force, the entire area has been appreciating over the last 5 years or so.  Many of the new homes being built nearby would be far out of reach of the people living in the immediate area, so I would imagine these smaller houses would stand to gain some good appreciation in coming years as the surrounding area improves.  

I also know that buying smaller crappier houses is more of a cashflow move than an appreciation move, but I want to get into investment and will likely need to start near low end of the market to make it feasible.

So if it is currently rented at nearly double what the mortgage would be, the current tenants appear to be keeping it in good repair based on pictures, and it may have decent appreciation over the coming years, should the bit of crime/rough homes be a deterrent for a first time investor? 

I have heard it is hard to get traditional financing on something this cheap, so would it be reasonable to assume that if I could come up with 10% down and manage the property myself that I may be able to find an investment partner to finance the other 90%?  Even if that 90% loan were on a 7-8% 30yr term and if I additionally agreed on a cashflow and profit at sale split down the road say 5 years, I could still stand to make enough to get into a nicer/more expensive rental next.

Does this send up red flags to anyone as something that would be wasting my time? Or am I right to dig in a little deeper to this deal? I'd love to get into a duplex or larger SFH, but this is the first one I've found that numbers come anywhere near working.

Any insight or things to look for would be much appreciated!

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Real Estate Broker · Wilmington, NC · Member since 2016 · 236 posts · 126 votes
9y

Good job providing good details, OP. Here are my thoughs

Neighborhood: Blue-collar, working class is usually a good investment. The fact that it's right across the street from a school is awesome. From what I've read, no problem there. Just stay out of REALLY bad stuff and you should be fine.

Home: "Built in 1948" I cringed when I saw this. Not a deal breaker, but older houses are a pain in the ***. Make sure that the all mechanical systems aren't from that time. Bottom-line: be prepared for higher expenses and bigger hassles.

Financing: You should be able to get a conventional loan. I'd keep shopping around. If this is you're first investment, I'd live in it the first year and get a FHA loan. That's just me though.

Numbers: Look a bit "too" good. ~%15 cap-rate. That's a bad area or junker cap-rate... Maybe not depending on your market, but that's a really high return.

Appreciation: Make sure to look at past comparables to see if the property has appreciated in the past. If appreciation has occurred, very good sign. If not, very very bad sign. (edit: nevermind saw your part on appreciation. If comparables are appreciating, that property should too, op)

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  • Real Estate Broker · Wilmington, NC · Member since 2016 · 236 posts · 126 votes
    9y

    Good job providing good details, OP. Here are my thoughs

    Neighborhood: Blue-collar, working class is usually a good investment. The fact that it's right across the street from a school is awesome. From what I've read, no problem there. Just stay out of REALLY bad stuff and you should be fine.

    Home: "Built in 1948" I cringed when I saw this. Not a deal breaker, but older houses are a pain in the ***. Make sure that the all mechanical systems aren't from that time. Bottom-line: be prepared for higher expenses and bigger hassles.

    Financing: You should be able to get a conventional loan. I'd keep shopping around. If this is you're first investment, I'd live in it the first year and get a FHA loan. That's just me though.

    Numbers: Look a bit "too" good. ~%15 cap-rate. That's a bad area or junker cap-rate... Maybe not depending on your market, but that's a really high return.

    Appreciation: Make sure to look at past comparables to see if the property has appreciated in the past. If appreciation has occurred, very good sign. If not, very very bad sign. (edit: nevermind saw your part on appreciation. If comparables are appreciating, that property should too, op)

  • Investor · Springfield, OH · Member since 2016 · 22 posts · 13 votes
    9y

    I had a bit similar circumstance: for me, I used compounding interest theory to build my portfolio. Although that house may not be in a particularly great area, if the ROI is high, it's worth the trouble (though this point is totally subjective.)

  • Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes
    9y

    @Teddy Smith Thank you for all of the helpful info.  I definitely think there may be some more to the story.  I'm going to look into comps a bit more.  Many of the nearby houses don't have sales history, at least not on the county property appraiser's site.  If they do, it will be a foreclosure at some point and then some quit claims, but no previous 'original' sale or even one from a few decades back.  But I'm thinking that sales previous to a certain time may not show on the site, the county is sort of 'country' and I wouldn't be surprised if they used paper and pen to record things until the most recent 10-15 years, haha.  I'm going to dig a bit deeper into that.

    I guess technically I'm living in my first investment. I bought my house new construction in 2009 for the price of many comparable foreclosures of the time, on an FHA loan with builder closing contribution, zero out of pocket, and the $8k first time homebuyers credit. It has appreciated well, and with two kids and three step kids, we are staying put for now. It's a perfect house for the long haul, and with kids in school it makes house hacking sort of more hassle than it is worth. So the FHA part is out, but conventional financing may be an option still. I will look into that.

    I would definitely want to find out what has been replaced since 1948.  One of the pictures shows a fairly new looking electric panel and meter, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it has been fully rewired.  Being on a crawl space, plumbing and electrical would likely be easier to do than if it were a slab...but that doesn't make it free.  Thanks for the word of caution on older homes. Down the road a bit from this house, there are three vacant lots similar in size, all listed for $25k, so there isn't a whole lot of value assigned to this building.

    Exploring the property appraisers records on this property and then googling some of the information, there is definitely more to the story than a normal sale. The property tax from 2014, 2015, and 2016 are still due. Combined it is still only about $1700 due, but it is odd that it hasn't been paid. The LLC company that is listed on the title appears to be inactive. They filed a dissolution in 2010, so maybe it has just been managed by a former member or something. But the fact that the LLC is dissolved and inactive and the very low property tax is three years past due says there is more to discover. It's possible that the company had other investments they sold and this one just sort of sat....but then again it is not distressed and is currently rented, so somebody has been managing. It could signal that they would accept a lower offer, or maybe there is a pandora's box of issues and nobody wants to touch it. I definitely plan to look into it deeper, even if for no other reason than to get experience figuring these things out.

    Again, thanks for all of the points to look into, I really appreciate you taking the time to do so!

  • Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes
    9y

    @Keeton Byerly that is an interesting point!  I know there are many aspects that ideally should be in a certain ballpark, but I also know that some deals may check of several boxes making them a good deal even though another aspect may not be ideal.  Would you care to expand on the "compounding interest theory?"  I'm still getting a hang of all of the lingo, so I want to make sure I'm getting the most out of all this awesome advice.  Thanks!

  • Investor · Springfield, OH · Member since 2016 · 22 posts · 13 votes
    9y

    Allow me ot explain my thought: 

    I was looking at two different classes of property for about 30k - a duplex in a bad area with great numbers or a ranch 3 bedroom with bad numbers but looked really nice. Fair market rent of $1200 total for the duplex vs 700 for the house. While I liked the ranch far more, I saw that the extra rent could be reinvested into my portfolio. 

    To be fair this is a finance term, but I used it to shape my investments. The idea is with time, principle will grow exponentially if dividends (rent) are reinvested.

    Those that understand compounding interest will benefit from it, those who do not will pay it - Albert Einstein

  • Investor · Springfield, OH · Member since 2016 · 22 posts · 13 votes
    9y

    Correction:

    “Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it, earns it ... he who doesn't ... pays it.”
  • Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes
    9y

    @Keeton Byerly Thank you for putting that so clearly.  

    I believe that theory is what has me interested in this otherwise somewhat uninteresting property, but I didn't know exactly how to word it.  I'm not looking to generate immediate cash-flow as an income to live on or spend at the current moment. I don't want negative cashflow of course, but I'm not looking to try and make a living wage on a few properties.  I have a day-to-day business for that and want to build a larger passive income than what I need before living solely on it, so that I still have extra for further investment.  The last thing I would want is to freeze myself from growing by 'retiring' and needing every dime of cashflow to pay for my life expenses. I'm also not afraid of having my investment properties in the beginning require a more work rather than being mostly passive.  I work 10 times harder physically in my current business than I would need to even with annoying tenants and various repairs. I stay pretty busy with my current business, but by the nature of it, I oftentimes have a few hours or even a whole day that would be available to put work into investments.  I'm still fairly young at 31, so if I have put in some sweat equity and some extra effort and stress into getting a start and managing my own properties, I know I can still transition into more passive properties in the future.

    The long term goal is to eventually have enough cash flow to both live on as well as funding future investments.  That's the long game and I know it will take a large portfolio and an aim to own many properties free and clear down the road.   So this sort of lower appreciation mediocre neighborhood isn't what I had in mind as a way of starting (as I know in general, cheaper houses cashflow more but appreciate less and oftentimes cause more tenant related headaches).  I was originally looking at 3/2 single family homes (and still am looking in that realm) so that I would have better tenants and at least enough "cash flow" to put away as a safety net for repairs while letting a nicer, newer, larger home appreciate and the principle shrink for the real long term income.  However, I came across this property, ran the preliminary numbers, and realized that even without wanting to draw the relatively large cashflow on such a cheap property, it would be a pretty substantial cash flow to redirect back into investments.  Even if the second and third investments were similar type deals, it could eventually allow me to step up into newer larger single or multi family properties.

    That is, of course, contingent on not discovering some giant issue with either the structure itself, something in the property records, or other reason that these numbers are in fact too good to be true.  I also feel that this property is a very small deal that would be too much hassle for what it is for anyone with several properties already in play.  It's likely not on the radar of more successful investors who are looking for more expensive better performing properties, so my competition may not be as heated. 

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    Opposite a school, but only 804sqft? What a waste of that block of land.

    I'd rather you find one of those foreclosure types at half this price. [More sqft the better].

    I reckon there's deals like that that WON'T require a full gut job! I suggest: keep looking.

    With the amount of research you do, you likely deserve to reap a good reward. To your success...

  • Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes
    9y

    @Brent Coombs Thanks for the input... I knew somebody would express the other side of things, ie: "RUN!".  I'm not going to give up on this one quite yet as I'm enjoying learning how much I can see about ownership status at least for my own education.  From what I can tell, it appears as if this holding company bought a bunch of horrendous, tiny, old distressed properties in 2002 and then tried and failed to sell them off in 2010-2011.  Searching the listed addresses for the members of the companies show that those addresses were also distressed properties that have since been quit claimed or otherwise passed off.  Basically, the trail to find the original holding company members runs cold and it appears that they unsuccessfully tried to liquidate their assets. A few others are for sale, but at higher prices and rougher condition.  One that is off market is a commercial property with a current business in it.  One is this one I'm looking at that is in decent repair, and the rest look like they should have already caved in on themselves or likely soon will.  Maybe I'll check it out and submit an offer for $25k and see what happens.  Then the numbers would be Awesome!  Haha.  This is really a learning experience even if I don't pursue the deal to the offer point, but truly I appreciate the positive and negative input.  Thanks everyone!! 

  • Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes
    9y

    I've been in contact with the listing agent.  There have been no updates to the 69 year old plumbing.  The electrical panel was updated to accommodate the new AC.  I would assume this means that the rest of the wiring beyond the panel is still from 1948...likely a 2-wire no ground system I assume?  Unless some previous owner along the way had made undocumented upgrades, which really wouldn't be a huge positive anyways without inspection of work done.  I'd have to look further into the materials used in '48 for plumbing and I would assume the electrical would need to be re-wired.  On that small of a house, re-wiring (which I would think would be nearly mandatory if for nothing but liability sake) and re-plumbing (which may not be necessary if all is working) would be fairly simple compared to a slab home, and I possess the skills to accomplish such a job....but it still would be an expense and hassle.  It's rented through December, so making such changes with a tenant would be tough, and if the tenant wanted to stay, I couldn't see kicking a paying tenant out just to make updates that they didn't care about previously. 

    Maybe discounting rent or even putting them up in a hotel for a few days would make some upgrades feasible? They'd be peace-of-mind upgrades for me more so than rent-increasing.  I'd hate to buy it for cashflow and have it burn to the ground due to the likely total lack of building codes when built. Florida back in those days was more of a "buy your land and whip together your own house.  If it stays standing, you did it well enough".  Maybe that is the reason it hasn't sold....but I'm still thinking of submitting a super lowball offer to see what happens.  It's a bit risky even at $67k, but if I could get it for $35k and still get $900/mo rent, it may be appealing even with old age.  I was also thinking that I could look at the cost of adding a bedroom and bathroom to the property, turning it into a 3/2 for increased rent and just banking the cashflow until I had enough to pay cash for a small master bed/bath addition.  There are 3/2 comps around it in the 1000-1200sqft range, but I'd have to look at that cost vs existing 3/2's.  

  • Investor · Bushnell, FL · Member since 2016 · 456 posts · 224 votes
    9y

    @Russell Holmes

    One thing to consider is if it is a investment home you cannot pull permits yourself .. so when you say you are capable of the work .. you will still need to hire a contractor to due said work .. then there's also liabilty if you hire anyone else like laborers to do work there . Wc insurance is required by all people that work in construction .. even sole proprietors .. this is of course if your intending on keeping things legal and not wanting to risk getting sued by a injured worker .. a officer of a LLC or a corperation can get exempt from Workers Comp but they have to file for it .. so if you have anyone who you hire that tells you they are excempt .. ask to see their certificate .. then check online to see if it is valid .. unfortunately .. if you dont check and they get injured , you can still be held liable .. good luck and ..

    God Speed , 

    Michael Short 

  • Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes
    9y
    @Michael Short , thank you for pointing that aspect out. I knew I could pull permits for my own residence, but did not know that it was not allowed on an investment property. I would only want work done once, the proper and legal way. So I will now know to take this into account on this and any other property. Thank you!
  • Investor · Chandler, AZ · Member since 2015 · 409 posts · 214 votes
    9y

    Russell

    you need to walk the property somehow to see what condition it is in

    no matter what before you consider buying a property

    you don't even know if it has floors? right?

    ive seen some really good number properties in texas

    but

    oh nooooo

    when you walk it you might as well dozer it over

    I always tell investors off site to look before you leap based on numbers

    remember- a fool and his or her money are soon parted

    and in real-estate it can go very quickly

    enjoy

  • Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes
    9y

    @Stanley Parsley The house is only about 20 mins from where I live.  The listing has quite a few pictures inside and out and I've been in communication with the listing agent.  Most homes around here in the same price range are slightly larger but would be a full gut job remodel including roof, drywall, AC, etc etc, not to mention not having an existing tenant and lease in place.

     The metal roof, AC, floors, and at least the main part of the electrical has been redone.  The electric panel and meter are new for sure.  It is such a small house, the breaker panel only appears to have 4-6 circuits, and there are several new conduits running down from the panel (in pictures), so it is possible that it has all been rewired. If it hasn't been, it would be a relatively simple job for an electrician.  I've learned in this post I can't do that myself, but I know several contractors, a plumber, an electrician, a few real estate brokers, and some investors.  So I would likely be able to get the work done at a reasonable rate.

      It definitely hasn't been "fully remodeled", but doing so wouldn't be worth it since the area wouldn't support a 40-50% rent increase or anything. It could use some minor upgrades as a few corners have been cut cosmetically: the backsplash in the kitchen appears to be 12x12 vinyl tiles literally screwed into a nailer strip, with a few inches in between each.  The cabinets may be old, but the kitchen is so small that putting new ones in from a discount surplus store with laminate counters would be an inexpensive undertaking if the current tenant were to move on after the lease and they needed replacing.  Much of the interior looks to be '48 vintage, but in a good way, painted nicely and in good repair, solid jambs, base, and trim.  It is more of an older charm than outdated mess.  I, of course, would physically walk the property before submitting an offer.  Today I drove by the house and around the neighborhood a bit to ensure the pictures online weren't outdated.  It is rented through december and the tenant's car was in the driveway, so I didn't linger too long.  The neighborhood is on the 'poor' side, but driving through, it appeared to be friendly in nature and likely more than 50% owner-occupant.  Several homes nearby had cute gardens, landscaping, and various decorations. You could tell nobody could afford high end landscaping or major upgrades, but they take pride in their homes nonetheless. Of the people who I saw sitting on front porches and in driveways, most were older, and several even waved as I passed.   Still too early to pull the trigger and submit an offer, but the more I look into it the more I'm reaffirming the positive feeling I have about much of it.  

    Being the first property I'm really diving into like this, I'm not too concerned if it gets bought before I make it to the point of putting in an offer. I know it isn't a once-in-a-lifetime deal, but just one that would work nicely.  I plan to pursue it further an submit a semi-low offer.  But if someone else beats me to it, I'll keep an eye on what it sells for compared to what I think it should.  The $900/mo rent is already about $150/mo more than I would have guessed, so there is still much to learn!

    As always, I appreciate all of the input from everyone!

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