Bad First Investment - Newbie Beware

Bad First Investment - Newbie Beware

Winnipeg, Manitoba · Member since 2017 · 57 posts · 37 votes

My very first deal:

Purchase price: $205,000

Down payment: 11% + 2% closing costs

House Type: Single Family

Sqft: 678 (WHAT? This isn't even a tight market nor a great neighbourhood. How did I get sold this crap lol)

Location: Winnipeg, Canada

How it all started:

My wife and I wanted to get our own home after living with parents and being able to save considerable amounts of money.

At about that time, I started listening to BP and seeing how all of these investors were succeeding with real estate. I almost immediately caught the real estate bug.

I found an agent who prided herself as being 'one of the best'. 

That said, she let us know that she would NOT write lowball offers or negotiate aggressively below the fair market value of a property.

At this point newbies, thank the realtor for their time, go to your local real estate facebook group, and say 'I need recommendations for an investor-friendly realtor to help negotiate aggressively and find me cashflowing investment properties'.

Look at a few of the recommendations you get, contact the realtors, and ask them to give you examples of live deals they've done, when it occurred, and what the purchase price, rehab numbers, cashflow numbers, and after repair value was. If you like what you hear, try them out.

Moving on... we bought the 678sqft home with scratched up hardwood floors, an old kitchen and bathroom, old rugs in the basement, and a green second bathroom in the basement (yes, its green).

This was a great home for just my wife and I. We didn't need much space, we rarely went to the basement, and all was great in the world.

So what's the problem Chibuzor? Life is great, the home is great, right?

WRONG.

Then came the time for us to buy another home and rent out our 678sqft home.

Every single tenant that came in complained about the small size, the narrow kitchen space leading to the basement, the old kitchen layout and style, the old rugs in the basement, etc.

Our plan was to use the home as an Airbnb since it was 5 minutes from the airport.

In reality, we could not use the house as an Airbnb As-is. We had to put 20k in to update the house, most of which we will never get back as equity because the homes in the area have a price cap.

Quick summary of why this was a bad investment:

1. Bought too high, ZERO equity (negative equity really)

2. House is in bad aesthetic condition ( Cannot be used as a regular rental or Airbnb without substantial work done)

3. House does not cashflow by itself. At the price we bought it for, i.e. $205,000, with rents being ~$1100 max in the area, and the house being so small, even if we got $1100 for the property, we would be breaking even on our Mortgage and Property Tax, and would have to pay from our pockets if any repairs need to be made.

For next time (Note: we already bought our second home the exact same way, and only realized our mistake when trying to rent out the first. Someone please help me take out emotions from this real estate journey):

1. I will take a moment to define what I consider to be an acceptable purchase price, equity, and cashflow in my area

2. I will go on my local facebook real estate group and ask for an investor-friendly agent, interview them, find one I like, and tell them my criteria

3. I will tell everyone I meet at local real estate events what I am looking for (Make sure you are pre-approved and can act on a deal, if not people wont trust you or refer deals to you if you cannot close deals)

4. Done

Hope this was helpful. I appreciate any comments.

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Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
7y
Originally posted by @Luke Ski:

This here gets better with each additional post. TWO HIGH paying jobs can't cover renovation of  678 sq ft home ??? ....and no savings??? I guess high paying jobs in Canada ain't that high after all.

Lots of hate and judgment on an Investor Basics thread.  He's taking action and he's opening himself up.  Let's go after the bad guys instead.

See this reply in the discussion

59 Replies

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  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    7y

    How did you analyze the properties before you bought them?

  • Investor · Fort Collins, CO · Member since 2018 · 165 posts · 127 votes
    7y

    @Chibuzor Alumba

    Yes! Facts. My father who has been a realtor for 16+ years has a massive list of things any home I buy MUST meet. When buying a home it’s not for myself it’s for the resale value and likability for renters and future purchasers. Luckily these desirable things make me happy as well.

    Our first home we bought, which is now a rental, we had the same experience!

    Sounds like you may should consider house hacking and improving it yourself and save as much as you can. I would accept that challenge, bit the bullet for 3-4 months then rent it out

  • Member since 2018 · 3 posts · 7 votes
    7y

    Please do not mind but its your own lack of homework before buying your properties. No realtor can put an offer without the consent of buyer. Did you analyze these properties before buying them? I understand that you are a newbie but you can still read at least 2-3 good books, watch online videos of people who already owned rental properties. 
    And always always start from the 1% rule (google it if you do not know it already).

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    7y

    If you sold the properties today, as is, how much would you get for them?  After paying the mortgage balances, would you walk away with any money?  How much...either way?

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Chibuzor Alumba:

    My very first deal:

    Purchase price: $205,000

    Down payment: 11% + 2% closing costs

    House Type: Single Family

    Sqft: 678 (WHAT? This isn't even a tight market nor a great neighbourhood. How did I get sold this crap lol)

    Location: Winnipeg, Canada

    How it all started:

    My wife and I wanted to get our own home after living with parents and being able to save considerable amounts of money.

    At about that time, I started listening to BP and seeing how all of these investors were succeeding with real estate. I almost immediately caught the real estate bug.

    I found an agent who prided herself as being 'one of the best'. 

    That said, she let us know that she would NOT write lowball offers or negotiate aggressively below the fair market value of a property.

    At this point newbies, thank the realtor for their time, go to your local real estate facebook group, and say 'I need recommendations for an investor-friendly realtor to help negotiate aggressively and find me cashflowing investment properties'.

    Look at a few of the recommendations you get, contact the realtors, and ask them to give you examples of live deals they've done, when it occurred, and what the purchase price, rehab numbers, cashflow numbers, and after repair value was. If you like what you hear, try them out.

    Moving on... we bought the 678sqft home with scratched up hardwood floors, an old kitchen and bathroom, old rugs in the basement, and a green second bathroom in the basement (yes, its green).

    This was a great home for just my wife and I. We didn't need much space, we rarely went to the basement, and all was great in the world.

    So what's the problem Chibuzor? Life is great, the home is great, right?

    WRONG.

    Then came the time for us to buy another home and rent out our 678sqft home.

    Every single tenant that came in complained about the small size, the narrow kitchen space leading to the basement, the old kitchen layout and style, the old rugs in the basement, etc.

    Our plan was to use the home as an Airbnb since it was 5 minutes from the airport.

    In reality, we could not use the house as an Airbnb As-is. We had to put 20k in to update the house, most of which we will never get back as equity because the homes in the area have a price cap.

    Quick summary of why this was a bad investment:

    1. Bought too high, ZERO equity (negative equity really)

    2. House is in bad aesthetic condition ( Cannot be used as a regular rental or Airbnb without substantial work done)

    3. House does not cashflow by itself. At the price we bought it for, i.e. $205,000, with rents being ~$1100 max in the area, and the house being so small, even if we got $1100 for the property, we would be breaking even on our Mortgage and Property Tax, and would have to pay from our pockets if any repairs need to be made.

    For next time (Note: we already bought our second home the exact same way, and only realized our mistake when trying to rent out the first. Someone please help me take out emotions from this real estate journey):

    1. I will take a moment to define what I consider to be an acceptable purchase price, equity, and cashflow in my area

    2. I will go on my local facebook real estate group and ask for an investor-friendly agent, interview them, find one I like, and tell them my criteria

    3. I will tell everyone I meet at local real estate events what I am looking for (Make sure you are pre-approved and can act on a deal, if not people wont trust you or refer deals to you if you cannot close deals)

    4. Done

    Hope this was helpful. I appreciate any comments.

    Excellent lessons, Chibuzor. Thank you for sharing! 

  • Rental Property Investor · Davenport, FL · Member since 2013 · 285 posts · 220 votes
    7y

    Hey, you pay for your education one way or another! Take this lesson, move forward and kill it next time!

  • Winnipeg, Manitoba · Member since 2017 · 57 posts · 37 votes
    7y

    @Joe Villeneuve good question.

    I was in the initial phase of just hearing the great things about real estate.

    I had not reached the point of learning how to analyze deals.

    To answer your question: we looked at the location (do we want to live there, would others want to live there,etc). We also looked at the purchase price: is it within our “typical home buyer” price range? If yes, buy.

    So no real investment analysis was done.

  • Winnipeg, Manitoba · Member since 2017 · 57 posts · 37 votes
    7y

    @Kashif Hayat you are so right. It was my enthusiasm mixed with my lack of knowledge and our (my wife and I’s) want to get ‘our own home’ that brought us to a good home but a terrible investment

  • Winnipeg, Manitoba · Member since 2017 · 57 posts · 37 votes
    7y

    @Joe Villeneuve the market has gone down since we bought (with interest rates going up), so we will probably lose All of our down payment and some

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Chibuzor Alumba:

    @Joe Villeneuve good question.

    I was in the initial phase of just hearing the great things about real estate.

    I had not reached the point of learning how to analyze deals.

    To answer your question: we looked at the location (do we want to live there, would others want to live there,etc). We also looked at the purchase price: is it within our “typical home buyer” price range? If yes, buy.

    So no real investment analysis was done.

     When you tell the Doctor, "it hurts when I raise my arm", what does the Doctor say?

    "Don't raise your arm". Same holds true here.

    90% of successful REI starts, and ends, with good analysys. The other 10%, is trying to fix what went wrong with your analysis.

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Chibuzor Alumba:

    @Joe Villeneuve the market has gone down since we bought (with interest rates going up), so we will probably lose All of our down payment and some

     So, if you sold today, you would have to pay the bank?  How much?  How much are you going to lose per year by keeping the house as it is?

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Chibuzor Alumba:

    @Joe Villeneuve good question.

    I was in the initial phase of just hearing the great things about real estate.

    I had not reached the point of learning how to analyze deals.

    To answer your question: we looked at the location (do we want to live there, would others want to live there,etc). We also looked at the purchase price: is it within our “typical home buyer” price range? If yes, buy.

    So no real investment analysis was done.

     You're not buying as a homeowner...and investor buys to make money..based on the number$.

  • Winnipeg, Manitoba · Member since 2017 · 57 posts · 37 votes
    7y

    @Joe Villeneuve this is all still unknown.

    We are trying to fix the house and hold it as an Airbnb still.

    Thank God we have the income to support holding both homes at the same time.

    Newbies: Please Do Not overleverage yourself.

    Don’t get so caught up with buying that you take improper steps and do not have the money to back it up.

    That’s the easiest way to get in debt or even get bankrupt

  • Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Bobby Shell what in your opinion are the most important things on “the list”?

  • Investor · FL · Member since 2017 · 266 posts · 220 votes
    7y

    @Steve Vaughan

    What is an acceptable cashflow for you?

    How much do you want to make on the money you invest?

    What does a good deal return in your area?

    Investments need to fit your criteria which will help take the emotion out of the equation.

    A 205k house in my area would be lower end C class and i need to make at least 25% a year on my out of pocket(IRR)

    You paid overall 330$ a foot

    What is market per foot? Look at this as well so sq footage doesnt trick you into a bad deal.

    Dont reinvent the wheel. This is napkin math takes 30 seconds. Get good at that and the rest will follow.

    Get a free app like property evaluator or an excel spreadsheet and use it everytime. Dont ever look at current market listed properties, look at recently sold(preferrably 30-60 days).

  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    7y

    @Chibuzor Alumba  I'm glad you are still optimistic.  The market in Canada varies a lot between different cities.  We all learn, even those who have been doing this a long time.  Good luck with the Airbnb.

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Theresa Harris:

    @Chibuzor Alumba  I'm glad you are still optimistic.  The market in Canada varies a lot between different cities.  We all learn, even those who have been doing this a long time.  Good luck with the Airbnb.

     Market varies between different cities, states, etc...in USA too

  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Joe Villeneuve:
    Originally posted by @Theresa Harris:

    @Chibuzor Alumba  I'm glad you are still optimistic.  The market in Canada varies a lot between different cities.  We all learn, even those who have been doing this a long time.  Good luck with the Airbnb.

     Market varies between different cities, states, etc...in USA too

     Very true.  

  • Rental Property Investor · NC · Member since 2018 · 776 posts · 776 votes
    7y

    So what's your plan? Are you going to keep bleeding cash each month? Is the decision point whether or not it works as an Airbnb?

    Also, why 11% DP? Is that a Canada thing?

  • Winnipeg, Manitoba · Member since 2017 · 57 posts · 37 votes
    7y

    @Frank Geiger the plan is to fix the home fast so we can rent it out ASAP and stop the cash bleed.

    The issues:

    - I have two full time high paying jobs and little time to work on the home

    - My wife is 8 months pregnant (enough said there)

    - We do not have enough in savings to just throw money at the problem (see the bad kitchen remodeling decision for reasons why we have no money)

    In reality, we’ll keep chipping away at the house until we get to a point where with a month or two months worth of mortgage plus utilities we can hire someone to complete the outstanding work. (Or maybe it’s more cost effective to spend $5,000 and get the house done now?)

  • Investor · Fort Collins, CO · Member since 2018 · 165 posts · 127 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Brian G.:

    @Bobby Shell what in your opinion are the most important things on “the list”?

     I would need to find the piece of paper he wrote down, but  a few are

    1. No lead based paint

    2. Copper Wiring - not aluminum if I remember correctly

    3. open floor plan - kitchen and living room open to each other

    4. master room on opposite side of other bedrooms (seperate kids from parents)

    5. Roof/AC/Furnace/Sump Pump - if the age is not good, get the price down, you will pay.

    6. Hardwood - can be expensive to maintain and update, get vinyl or tile for easier maintenance.

    7. Ranch Style - the older people get, the less they want to walk up and downstairs (ranch style typically sell faster)

    8. termites - check for termites if your state has them - GET A TERMITE BOND (dad sells in florida, so this can be a 30-40k mistake if you make it)

    9. Get a west Facing Home (if you get snow) that way your driveway snow and ice melts (other people on our street have it freeze! Scary)

    HE gave me about 15-20 things, I can't remember them all, most are not obvious, above are some of the obvious ones!

  • Winnipeg, Manitoba · Member since 2017 · 57 posts · 37 votes
    7y

    @Sarah Doogle we made poor choices (see the kitchen story).

    The real issue is that we need a network of trusted tradespeople.

    Everyone we meet is quoting us $2800 to sand and refinish a 600sqft space.

    We can pay for a reasonable job at a fair price.

    Working on building our network of tradespeople now.

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Chibuzor Alumba:

    @Sarah Doogle we made poor choices (see the kitchen story).

    The real issue is that we need a network of trusted tradespeople.

    Everyone we meet is quoting us $2800 to sand and refinish a 600sqft space.

    We can pay for a reasonable job at a fair price.

    Working on building our network of tradespeople now.

     No, your first...and most important thing to work on now, and forever, is to learn how to properly analyze by the number$.

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    7y
    The biggest mistake was in buying a personal home instead of a investment property. They are not the same and it is very rare that a personal SFH is a good investment as a income property. They do not cash flow. If you want to invest buy a purpose built multi unit property not a SFH.
  • Specialist · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2017 · 26 posts · 17 votes
    7y

    @Chibuzor Alumba I think your biggest mistake was not looking at comps and your numbers, if you were wanting to rent it out you should have tried to see what the cap rate would come out to.

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