Is it helpful to be handy?

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Is it helpful to be handy?

Ezra Harris

Rental Property Investor · Goshen, OH · Member since 2017 · 58 posts · 22 votes

Lately I have entertained the idea that being handy might not be the best quality of a investor.

Obviously this depends on your investing goals..

But➡️

Here is the question.. how can a “handy” or “gifted” builder grow without getting in his or her own way?

Building a portfolio of great investments without loosing the joy of working with your hands and being a part of the day to day.

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Shawn Coverdell

Investor · Clatskanie, OR · Member since 2014 · 212 posts · 233 votes

Our first 10 properties my wife and I did ourselves. We at least doubled up on each one. I believe this was the biggest part of our growth. here is a big hint. We now hire most of the work out. I fired 10 guys for every one I kept. so far all of the investors that I know who hire contractors, give up huge chunks of profit and they are way behind us. I mean ALL of them!

Now with that being said, if you can somehow make profits while paying contractor prices then go for it because anything is better than a W-2 job right?

But, if you are looking to come up FAST, you better learn fast on how to remodel homes. This also eliminates a lot of risk by increasing your margin (ie Cash flow).

Also, I can spot a scam in less than a minute in most cases, just by what they say. You just know. I can't even explain it.

Have you been quoted 10K for a new roof. Same roof cost me less than 3K and I hire it out. Learn how to do the work and you will learn how to hire workers and what to look for later on in the game.

I have heard many say your time can be spent more wisely. I say, buy some knee pads and get them dirty.

Your best education is not buying a pack of CD's from some famous person that sounds cool, it is buying a trashed house and making it look great. You will learn everything you need to know from doing that. All the numbers will become crystal clear.

It's a HUGE DEAL.

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Ezra Harris
OP
Rental Property Investor · Goshen, OH · Member since 2017 · 58 posts · 22 votes
7y
@Cody L.
Awesome!
It sounds like you are on the scaling train and it’s flying down the track lol.
If you could meet yourself back when you were getting started.. what words of wisdom would you give yourself?
0 Reply
Joe SplitrockPro Member
Moderator
Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
7y
Originally posted by @Ezra Harris:
@Joe Splitrock
Starting out and building sweat equality is possible the biggest reason anyone can get into real estate.
What type of deal would you recommend a newbie starting out with little or no money and no or little experience should buy?
Would you say a “simple” single family or is the starting line somewhere before that simple house?

I started with an old duplex and that worked out pretty well for a DIY landlord. Inexpensive and not too big to deal with. It partly depends on what you have in your market that you can afford. I have heard people say, buy the biggest property you can starting out. That has some good logic too.
1 Reply
Ezra Harris
OP
Rental Property Investor · Goshen, OH · Member since 2017 · 58 posts · 22 votes
7y
@Noah Mccurley
That’s very neat!
I would say a large percentage of people would get away from having to work in their deals as soon as possible.
But for the small group of people who enjoy it. It is great to here you still can, even if you are scaling big. :)
What do you plan to do in your investing goals?
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Ezra Harris
OP
Rental Property Investor · Goshen, OH · Member since 2017 · 58 posts · 22 votes
7y
@Joe Splitrock
Duplexes definitely seem to have everything a beginner needs.
Smaller property but bigger upside.
Can be lived in or rented out. Or both.
Duplexes come in many shapes and sizes as well.
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Joe SplitrockPro Member
Moderator
Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
7y
Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:
I understand the reason for the question. Now. As a natural DEY technician, I spent years doing everything and started to burn out. But I didn't start handy. I became that way through necessity (being broke) and to learn.

I have found that carpenter/builder-type GCs are surprised at how little their niche is needed to run a stabilized rental. Good thing since I can't build a deck or tape and texture for nothin'. GCs also tend to rip out perfectly good, say, cabinets and countertops where a 'hack' like me will resurface them for pennies on the dollar weeks faster.

Like @Mike M mentions, the savings are in plumbing and electrical. I'll add painting and flooring. I can brush and roll a few rooms faster and better with my 2 boys than any crew I've seen. We can install laminate, swap a faucet or toilet, wire plugs and change out an old 230v a/c to a 115 circuit in no time. No lead time! Waiting days or weeks for a pro is what kills us. Pick your battles like @Matthew Paul says.

Stick to your highest and best use and renovate to the home and neighborhood. GCs tend to over-improve. Good discussion!

I love your last line, "highest and best use" is the way to look at it. Some landlords spend their day doing demolition, hauling junk, cleaning and mowing lawns. These are all jobs that you can hire a neighborhood kid to do. The other issue is when you do work yourself, your time can't be claimed as a tax write off. Time is our only limited resource, so every minute is valuable.
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Steve Vaughan
Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
7y
Originally posted by @Ezra Harris:
@Steve Vaughan
Steve, you sounds like the type of guy everyone would love to shadow!
Do you always plan on doing the work yourself?
Or do you have a plan you could share with us that allows you to hand off the handy things to “handy men”, allowing you to be “free”?

Thank you for the compliment, Ezra, but I really doubt others want to dress like a homeless looking construction painter plumber driving around in their beater eating pb&j's between naps.

I am a horrible task delegator. Always have been. The best I do is work on plumbing and electrical for instance while others (my 2 boys usually) are cleaning and mowing lawns and such. For the most part I enjoy the work is the problem. I already only work every third Tuesday typically.

My friend and colleague @Bjorn Ahlblad and I were discussing 'retirement / exit' strategies yesterday. He is much more of a hands-off delegator of multifamilies than I so he may have more handy hands-off strategies to offer. But the big question still remains about what to do after. How to exit? Consolidate up to larger assets or offer seller-financing or re-deploy to syndications, etc. Perhaps a combination?
Some of us aren't meant to hand things over maybe. Growing fast alone worked for me. Far together may work better for others...

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Ola Dantis
Multifamily Syndicator · Houston, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
7y
Being handy as an investor has more pros than cons in my opinion. Yes, you don't want to work so deeply in your business that you lose the helicopter view of your business and your portfolio.
Finding great tradesmen is a pain point in this business, so the days you aren't able to find a handyman to do a job, you can jump in rather quickly and pay yourself for that time. This can be a really good bargain for those who especially like to get their hands dirty.
On the flip side, Know Thyself, because you can be handy but don't like doing this type of work and/or you have a large portfolio of properties, and the situation will not be ideal as you will start running around all day and not focussing the lifeline of your business, which is deal flow and capital. I see many landlords, who are tired for this reason and when you see them they look drained and done. This should not be the end goal!
Being aware and having a balanced approach is key!
4 Reply
James Wise
Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
7y
Originally posted by @Ezra Harris:
Lately I have entertained the idea that being handy might not be the best quality of a investor.
Obviously this depends on your investing goals..
But➡️
Here is the question.. how can a “handy” or “gifted” builder grow without getting in his or her own way?
Building a portfolio of great investments without loosing the joy of working with your hands and being a part of the day to day.

Being handy means you can do some things that you would normally need to hire out. So yes it's a competitive advantage that is helpful. Is it the most helpful competitive advantage out there? No probably not but it doesn't hurt.
1 Reply
Ezra Harris
OP
Rental Property Investor · Goshen, OH · Member since 2017 · 58 posts · 22 votes
7y
@Steve Vaughan
Ha ha,
At least your honest with what you are and want to be.
I love that saying that Brandon uses all the time. You are the average of the five people you associate with most.
Sounds like you have found those people and if I can take something away from your reply. It would be find people that are doing what you want to do and learn from them.
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Randall Hoeber
Yorkton, Saskatchewan · Member since 2016 · 53 posts · 26 votes
7y
@Ezra Harris absolutely. As Red Green would say, “if they don’t find u handsome they better find u handy.”
3 Reply
Ezra Harris
OP
Rental Property Investor · Goshen, OH · Member since 2017 · 58 posts · 22 votes
7y
@James Wise
It sure doesn’t! And people start Out with worse things than being handy 😜.
0 Reply
Ezra Harris
OP
Rental Property Investor · Goshen, OH · Member since 2017 · 58 posts · 22 votes
7y
@Ola Dantis
What are the biggest cons in your opinion?
Getting to involved in the day to day seems to be the “worst” but I’m curious if you have a few other cons handy person can look out for.
1 Reply
Jim K.
Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
7y
If you're working to make money at rehabbing properties, you need to know the work and know it well. Rehab-based real estate investing is the only industry where you are frequently told you don't need to understand the main focus of your business to turn a tidy profit at it.

Imagine you're sitting in an office and a salesman comes in and tells you there's huge money in portable toilets. Best money ever. Port-a-crappers will have you swimming in money. And he swears up and down that he can sell you courses and mentoring with the SECRETS of the business. These secrets are so powerful that if you just do what he says, you'll start, run, and go public with your port-a-crapper empire AND YOU WILL NEVER EVER EVER HAVE TO SMELL CRAP.

Do you write him a check and wait eagerly for the next 3-day event? Of course not. But somehow, half the people who get into flipping houses or buying defunct rentals, or, God help them, running a string of BRRRRs are sure that they won't ever need to get their hands dirty, that useful, low-class fools can always be found to handle that work and make them rich.

Whether or not you keep doing the work or hire it out and supervise effectively after you learn it well is a whole other matter.
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Bjorn AhlbladPro Member
Investor · Shelton, WA · Member since 2017 · 6k+ posts · 6k+ votes
7y
I think it is great to be handy; but it is even better to know your limitations. If we have a leaky toilet I call our handywoman and she has it fixed in no time; if I so much as stare at it will be a plumbing emergency and we will need a pro. So I leave it for the handywoman she loves her job and we pay her well! She picked up her skills from an old boyfriend and she was frustrated because landlords would not give her the opportunity to do more than clean; and she likes to do painting, plumbing, and all the 'fun' stuff. She is the most valuable member of out team!
I'm sorry what was this thread about again?
4 Reply
Matt M.
Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
7y
@Ezra Harris
What I would hire out would definitely be drywall. This house I’m doing now I’ve probably hung and finished 80 sheets by myself. I’m a pro at it, but when it’s just me it simply takes to long.
2 Reply
Bjorn AhlbladPro Member
Investor · Shelton, WA · Member since 2017 · 6k+ posts · 6k+ votes
7y
@Steve Vaughan and I were talking about next steps and exit options...........many aspiring investors on the Board have the desire but are often held back due to a lack of funds so why not sell properties that are paid for, or largely so, offering seller financing. On top of that you could also add PM services-turnkey MF. I saw on CL yesterday Steve has already listed two of his MF properties for sale; but I will leave it to him to share details.
0 Reply
Marquis L. Robbins
Rental Property Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 9 posts · 9 votes
7y
@Ezra Harris
This is a great topic. I love working with my hands and don’t really see it as a hinderance. I’m still at the beginning stages so who knows how I will feel 10-15years from now. As it is currently I enjoy the sweat equity in each project.
1 Reply
Dustin P.
Realtor · Tempe, AZ · Member since 2017 · 541 posts · 442 votes
7y
I think it's useful to be handy if only for being able to know what it should look like as others have said. There's a reason a GC can quote a brand new, seminar fresh investor $100k for a remodel that should only cost $50k. That person doesn't know what goes into everything, what the cost really is, what material costs are, etc. Why would you pay a GC $8k for new cabinets for example when you know you can buy them yourself for $3k and pay an installer a fraction of their cost? The GC is banking on you not knowing or being comfortable with the process. Just as an example
1 Reply
Sean McDonnell
Real Estate Agent · Surf City, NC · Member since 2017 · 648 posts · 597 votes
7y
Besides saving some money while you are starting out, another pro for being handy is that you develop a skill set that you will use for the rest of your life!
Also, if you are good at little DIY projects around the house, you can sign up as a provider for Takl and earn some extra money. It is a solid side-hustle that can help you towards that next investment property!
1 Reply
Michael HaasBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Redmond, 🌧️ Seattle Investor-Agent | 🤑 Helped 400+ Clients Invest in Real Estate | 🏘️ Owns 23 WA Rentals & Airbnbs | 🏗️ Built 5 DADU's | 📈 You Can Do It Too · Member since 2016 · 724 posts · 3k+ votes
7y
Marry someone with a W-2 ;).

But seriously, being self employed is not a barrier, just a delay (unlike a w-2 worker you need two years of tax returns). I'm self employed and haven't had a problem getting loans since I passed the two year mark.

Originally posted by @Ezra Harris:
@Mike M.
It sure saves time when you are your own boss.
Saying that.. what would your best advice to a investor wanting to grow big but stuck without a w2, due to being self employed?
Earning more is always best but not always possible.

[email protected]408-439-7873
HouseHack Seattle | Michael Haas & Team572 Reviews
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Matthew Paul
Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
7y
Originally posted by @Ezra Harris:
@Matthew Paul
Do you plan on traveling the country/world one day? If so.. how do you plan on transitioning from managing your properties all alone to being able to manage from the no reception zones when you travel?
Do you think you can find a management company that can do everything as good as you?

I travel every other week end in the summer . If I have a problem at a rental , I just call one of my subs to handle it . Its no big deal .

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Steve B.
Engineer · Portland, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
7y
@Ezra Harris it’s always a good thing but it also depends on how much your time is worth.
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Steve B.
Engineer · Portland, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
7y
@Shawn Coverdell you’re not far from me, but have you noticed how much worse it has become in the last 2 years dealing with contractors? I blame the robust market
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Mindy JensenPro Member
BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
7y
We're DIY out of necessity. It's difficult to find a contractor who can do as good a job as we can, for the same or similar amount of money.
Drywall finishing is an art, and I hire that out all day long.
Roofing just plain sucks.
I tried to hang gutters. That is a job worth whatever they charge. 3 ruined pieces of gutter, siliconed together (not straight) and a sliced thumb requiring stitches, and I was done.
Concrete flatwork is another art.
But I can paint, install flooring, do finish carpentry, install kitchens and baths, electrical work, plumbing if it's sharkbite or pex, and lay tile at least as well as any contractor. On MY schedule and my terms. So if I can't find someone to do it at a reasonable price, or within a reasonable timeframe, I do it myself. I consider this flexibility to be beneficial to me. And yes, it's not scalable. I'm OK with that. I'm not looking to 10X my holdings. I'm doing fine.
[email protected]Podcast Guest on Show #261
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Lee Bell
Real Estate Appraiser · Isabella lake, CA · Member since 2018 · 628 posts · 491 votes
7y
I'll just echo a couple other people.
What is the highest and best use of your time?
If you start small, maybe being the handy person is right for you. But if you have 100 units to be painted in 2 days, this is not diy time. You are probably making a ton of money on the deal. Put down the paintbrush, Homer. LOL.
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