Using Subject To, to Get "Free" Properties - A Quick Guideline

Using Subject To, to Get "Free" Properties - A Quick Guideline

Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes

I often buy using Subject To to buy properties. If you choose to use this technique these are some of the Pitfalls to watch out for.

Subject To Pitfalls

1. The bank can call the loan due (due on sale cause).

2. You need money to do a "no money down" Subject To. The seller needs moving money, there are oftentimes an arrears that has to be paid on the loan, there are oftentimes HOA fees that are due, there are title costs, there are escrow costs, usually there is deferred maintenance, you have to make mortgage payments out of pocket until you get a renter in there, you have to pay utilities and taxes, and you need reserves in case it all doesn't go as planned.

3. You can really mess up the seller's credit if you miss payments and they can then sue you.

4. If the seller files bankruptcy in the future you have to prove to the court that you bought the house fairly. That means you have to hire an attorney with uncertain outcomes.

5. If there is a fire and you haven't set up your insurance properly you could be in for a big surprise and not receive a payout.

6. A common source of Subject To deals is people in distress (foreclosure) who have a pending sale date. If you promise them a "rescue" and you don't get it done before the foreclosure sale they can sue you and the local authorities can investigate you.

7. In many jurisdictions (Washington, Oregon, California & others) it is unlawful to contact people in foreclosure unless you are an attorney or real estate gent.

8. If you miss payments on the underlying loan you can go to jail after a very unpleasant investigation.

9. The seller can come back in a year or two and say the sale was unfair and they were taken advantage of and an attorney will believe them and sue you.

10. You can use a Quit Claim Deed and that can be rejected when you go to sell the property.

11. The seller can disappear from contact over time and not be available when you go to sell - you need their assistance oftentimes depending on the lender.

12. You can't contact the lender directly, they won't talk to you.

13. The payment can change and you won't be notified.

14. You can find out later that there was someone else on title that you weren't told about until you get sued.

15. Of course there are more Pitfalls. Did you think this was easy? ;-)

There are solutions for all of these but that is a conversation for later.

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Professional · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2016 · 126 posts · 123 votes
3y
Quote from @Matt Burr:

How do you handle number 5 with the insurance?

The downside I am trying to find a way around is how to insure correctly without the bank getting notified of the change in owner. 


1 - get a POA from the seller so you can handle it, and get in writing from the seller that in such a case you get the proceeds.  When the check comes however, they will still have to sign it over.

2 - Contact NREIG.  They know how to properly insure sub to deals to protect everyone.

https://nreig.com/insure-subje...
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  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Nonkhane Nonnie Saycosie:

    I agree everything is a risk.  I'm trying to understand how #1 is not mortgage fraud? Seems like a legal risk with no protection to the "Sub to" purchaser and holds no liable responsibilities the  "Sub to" agent.  

    I have attended Pace Morby seminars and seems like a profitable risk, but worried the legal consequences would exceed the "sub to" profits and compromise my license.  Any insight or knowledge would be appreciated this way:  

    A mortgage and note do not, in fact CAN NOT legally prohibit the sale of the subject property; nor can that document REQUIRE the announcement of that sale.   Therefore, it is not mortgage fraud.

    What the transfer of ownership of the subject property does is violate one of the covenants of the mortgage document.  As a violation it provides the mortgagee with the OPTION of accelerating the note - with all the proper notices and procedures for the state of property residence.

    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
  • Real Estate Consultant · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 45 posts · 39 votes
    3y

    If this was an issue for the Federal Government line #503 would not be on the HUD1

  • Real Estate Agent · Saginaw, MI · Member since 2022 · 28 posts · 15 votes
    3y

    Thank you for the clarification Don Konipol!  It seems that the primary risk pertains to the "Due on Sale" clause rather than concerns about mortgage fraud.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Dean Smith:

    If we buy a home subject to from a seller who is facing foreclosure, and that seller then has to rent someplace to live, how will the existing loan impact that ability?  We kept the foreclosure off their record so that helps, but when rental company runs credit they will see that obligation, won’t they ? 

    I'm curious, how do you know you "kept the foreclosure off their record"?
    Did you see all 3 credit reports (Experian, Equifax and Trans Union for each of them) 60 days or more after closing? I'd love to know. Maybe things have changed.

    Standard is, that once the Notice of Trustee Sale (Foreclosure) is recorded, long before the Auction date, the public record becomes part of their credit report. They can tell a future creditor that they sold before the sale date (if that is what happened) but the foreclosure status most likely will show up on their credit report for seven years even if you bought the property before the sale. I hope things have changed, let me know if they have.



    their credit is already trashed with late payments and NOD filed.. the actual foreclosure is just another nail in their credit coffin.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Nonkhane Nonnie Saycosie:

    Thank you for the clarification Don Konipol!  It seems that the primary risk pertains to the "Due on Sale" clause rather than concerns about mortgage fraud.


     Ask your title company to pull a typical mortgage for you ( they are recorded) then read every section of it.. you will normally come to a section of the mortgage that says EVENT OF DEFAULT

    and thats where these events will be listed. 

    they inlcude Waste

    non payment of insurance

    non payment of property tax's 

    Alienation of title  ( thats what your doing when you transfer title and do not payment off) sub too.

    Etc..  It will further say that these events of default give the lender the right to accelerate the note IE all due an payable upon the event of default. but not the OBLIGATION to do so.. 

  • Member since 2023 · 6 posts · 0 votes
    3y

    @ Mike Hearn

    Our terms differ in our state, but a Notice of Foreclosure is an impending action. Unless there is a court order granting the award and property rights due to the "decided action" it will not be on their record as having been "foreclosed" upon. The way I read Dean Smith's post, the were able to complete the sale somewhere in between and therefore would not be on their credit report as a foreclosure.

  • Member since 2022 · 405 posts · 455 votes
    3y

    Great post. I have been curious about how sellers are comfortable relying on someone else to pay a mortgage in their name. Looks like they have some recourse that can be very detrimental to the buyer.

  • Varinder KumarPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · LA & ORANGE COUNTY CA -Multi Family · Member since 2016 · 374 posts · 132 votes
    3y

    Which recording do you use for these? 

  • Member since 2022 · 5 posts · 1 vote
    3y
    Quote from @Zachary Ware:

    Great post. I have been curious about how sellers are comfortable relying on someone else to pay a mortgage in their name. Looks like they have some recourse that can be very detrimental to the buyer.


     Some sellers just have no other choice. Though I wish more people would look into wraparound mortgages or wraparound deed of trust. Gives the seller a secured position and honestly, is a great selling point.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Carson Correll:
    Quote from @Zachary Ware:

    Great post. I have been curious about how sellers are comfortable relying on someone else to pay a mortgage in their name. Looks like they have some recourse that can be very detrimental to the buyer.


     Some sellers just have no other choice. Though I wish more people would look into wraparound mortgages or wraparound deed of trust. Gives the seller a secured position and honestly, is a great selling point.

    You probably would use a Wrap if you were paying the seller over time, but a Land Contract would give the seller some protecton. However, that opens the buyer to some risky exposure.

    I'm seeing more people post that they are now in trouble because they did a Subject To, didn't have complete knowledge, won't admit to who trained them and are asking for desperate help. Anyone else seeing those posts? Ohh, the troubles to come.


    I have not seen those maybe post links to them. I have seen what do I do and how do i do it.. most of them are chasing deals that are not deals.. at least to experienced investors.
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Carson Correll:
    Quote from @Zachary Ware:

    Great post. I

    I'm seeing more people post that they are now in trouble because they did a Subject To, didn't have complete knowledge, won't admit to who trained them and are asking for desperate help. Anyone else seeing those posts? Ohh, the troubles to come.


    I have not seen those maybe post links to them. I have seen what do I do and how do i do it.. most of them are chasing deals that are not deals.. at least to experienced investors.
    Here's one, I'll try to find the others

    Sub 2 - Seller having buyer remorse https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/50/topics/1177161-sub-2...

    Here are a couple Sub 2 - Seller having buyer remorse (Today)

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/50/topics/1177161-sub-2...

    Subject-to creative finance  (3 days ago)

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/61/topics/1176650-subje...


    thank you I will read these as well.. the first one you posted sounded like the seller did not understand or pretending to not understand. and keep in mind these are not skilled RE folks so even if you explain it may not sink in.. Its just like when i have sold homes on contract to folks that are so used to renting.. and they call with a maintenance request they dont know any better.

    But this brought up a memory. One of my competitiors in HML in the SF bay area in the 80s would always video tape the closings..  you know  Mr Mrs borrower or should I say they or them to make sure i dont offend the woke crowd.. Anyway.. they would video tape the actual closing and the main reason was to go over the terms of the NOTE.. this is 15% interest you go into default by non payment or non payment of insurance the rate jumps to 22% this is short term loan its due in 12 months if you dont pay we have the right to foreclose or we can charge another 5 points just like the points your paying today.  etc etc.. So with tech today much easier than what they did back then.  Since these sub 2 transaction to you and me are simple and we fully understand they them mr mrs  it.. probably does not understand the gravity of the situation and that they should not be selling this way as the risk is far to high in most all cases.
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Jami Lynn:
    Wow - open racism on the forum. Veering from Hinrich's snide "woke crowd" griping to this....what a shame people with so much experience and knowledge can't just answer a question without spewing this ugliness.



    LOL  woke is a joke.. sorry it offends.. you but also there are simply realities for those of us with decades of experience take it the way you want but reality is reality.
  • Jami LynnPro Member
    Browns Mills, NJ · Member since 2017 · 18 posts · 4 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Jami Lynn:
    Wow - open racism on the forum. Veering from Hinrich's snide "woke crowd" griping to this....what a shame people with so much experience and knowledge can't just answer a question without spewing this ugliness.



    LOL  woke is a joke.. sorry it offends.. you but also there are simply realities for those of us with decades of experience take it the way you want but reality is reality.

     I'm sure the "my opinion equals 'reality' for everyone on the planet" attitude was also common among your grandparents' generation when you were young, a long time ago, and you probably rolled your eyes just as hard at their smug self-importance as we are now.


    You have a wealth of knowledge - there's really no reason to incorporate irrelevant social commentary into your comments here.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Jami Lynn:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Jami Lynn:
    Wow - open racism on the forum. Veering from Hinrich's snide "woke crowd" griping to this....what a shame people with so much experience and knowledge can't just answer a question without spewing this ugliness.



    LOL  woke is a joke.. sorry it offends.. you but also there are simply realities for those of us with decades of experience take it the way you want but reality is reality.

     I'm sure the "my opinion equals 'reality' for everyone on the planet" attitude was also common among your grandparents' generation when you were young, a long time ago, and you probably rolled your eyes just as hard at their smug self-importance as we are now.


    You have a wealth of knowledge - there's really no reason to incorporate irrelevant social commentary into your comments here.


    your not the BP police so if you dont like it just skip over them and stick to what you like.. U may want to look at my references and see all the people I help on this site never charging a dime or asking for anything in return.. we all are entitled to our opinions.
  • Jami LynnPro Member
    Browns Mills, NJ · Member since 2017 · 18 posts · 4 votes
    2y

    Why don't you identify exactly who those "recognized minorities" are that you feel are always such a problem?

    You know, just so we're all on the same page.

  • Tom GimerBusiness Member
    DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y

    Well that went sideways pretty quick... kinda like a poorly planned subto deal!

    Gimer Law516 Reviews
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Jami Lynn:

    You were the one who deliberately inserted irrelevant and racist statements into an otherwise informative and helpful comment, then refused to answer the question posed about the "minorities" YOU brought up and act as though you're somehow the victim here.

    So, you're a bigot AND a coward. 

    Don't want to get called out for making racist comments? Then don't make them. Very simple.


    I dont know if your aiming this at Jay or Ken.. but being called racist bigot etc. is pretty funny to me.  When I started in the bizz in the mid 70s I saw racism .. company i worked for said if you go to your presentation and a black family answered you were to say wrong address and leave. I was like this is BS.. and we started our own company and we opened up in the black communities of the SF bay area Oakland Richmond parts of SF  East Palo Alto etc.. I have hundreds of black clients we did quite well servicing their RE needs .  

    the point though as well is virtually everyone is some sort of race or ethnic backgrounds and to think that these cultural and different backgrounds do not extend to how they do real estate deals is simply someone who has no clue..  Asian's have a style  Indians from India have a certain negotiating style.. Aussies are very straight forward in their style.. Etc etc.. its just  facts of life. And in my career working in the SF bay area were we are a true melting pot I got to service all different nationalities and cultures..  I lived in palo Alto for years and when we would go to pot luck at the kids schools you should have seen the food.. at one point one of the teachers said there were 27 different nationalities .. So to call me names is just so off base but you would not have known that.
  • Jami LynnPro Member
    Browns Mills, NJ · Member since 2017 · 18 posts · 4 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Jami Lynn:

    You were the one who deliberately inserted irrelevant and racist statements into an otherwise informative and helpful comment, then refused to answer the question posed about the "minorities" YOU brought up and act as though you're somehow the victim here.

    So, you're a bigot AND a coward. 

    Don't want to get called out for making racist comments? Then don't make them. Very simple.

    So, why don't you post your picture and tell us a little bit about yourself for credibility? Offer your experiences & advice in selling properties. Bigger Pockets provides the opportunity as a courtesy. Your aren't required by law to be here. You are free to talk about your purchases and sales. I'm not here to conform to your expectations or your psychosis. It's all pretty simple really.

    I've spent 7 years tutoring in poor minority neighorhods as a white guy. Can you say the same?

    It's all irrelevant.

    I responded to your questions in the DM I sent you. That's where the discussion belongs. But, I guess you refuse to read it and want to continue the unrelated discussion here. So, If you have a problem, please seek a counselor or start your own thread. thanks.

    Do us both a favor and go buy some property. ;-)

     No, the discussion doesn't belong in my DMs - it belongs here, on the public forum where you made the initial comment. I'm sure you'd like it to continue there, because you're trying to backpedal now by attempting to move the conversation out of the place where everyone can see it. 

    My "credibility" is that I've advocated for marginalized groups since I was in high school and part of advocating is being willing to call out people who refuse to acknowledge how you talk about a group contributes to how they're seen. The idea that I can't speak up because I'm new at investing is a lame attempt at deflection on your part. If someone came on the forum and accused all investors using subto and creative finance as predatory low-lifes trying to con vulnerable homeowners out of their equity are you going to call them out? Obviously. 

    Your claim that you spent time tutoring in poor minority neighborhoods isn't the slam-dunk you think it is - because if it's true, then it makes your comment about "recognized minorities" even worse, since you should have learned to see them as individuals, not a some monolithic group that you view as dishonest, untrustworthy and stupid.

  • Jami LynnPro Member
    Browns Mills, NJ · Member since 2017 · 18 posts · 4 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    I dont know if your aiming this at Jay or Ken.. but being called racist bigot etc. is pretty funny to me.  When I started in the bizz in the mid 70s I saw racism .. company i worked for said if you go to your presentation and a black family answered you were to say wrong address and leave. I was like this is BS.. and we started our own company and we opened up in the black communities of the SF bay area Oakland Richmond parts of SF  East Palo Alto etc.. I have hundreds of black clients we did quite well servicing their RE needs .  

    No, the accusation of racism was not aimed at you. 

  • Jami LynnPro Member
    Browns Mills, NJ · Member since 2017 · 18 posts · 4 votes
    2y

    Oh, wow - going the "Karen" route now? Ok, Rambo - the guy who's supposedly had guns and knives pulled on him but is too afraid to admit exactly who he meant when he said "recognized minorities", then doubles-down and goes right back to calling them a "problem". I'm guessing you don't tell them that to their faces when trying to sell them a house.

    Warning people is great - you just went full own-goal when you inserted the reference to minorities. All you had to do was say, "Here's what I do to protect myself in case any buyers come back later and don't want to honor the contract."

    LMAO - "I want to see if you are a white person putting yourself out there for minorities like I am." Well, I AM a white person but I'm sure as hell not doing things "like you are", going around "warning" people about how dishonest, untrustworthy and stupid you have made it clear you think minorities are. That's me on the right.

  • Tom GimerBusiness Member
    DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y

    Can't some fool jump in here with a quick "Pace Morby is the best thing that ever happened to me" comment to lighten things up?

    Gimer Law516 Reviews
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Account Closed:

    People always assume that having an LLC keeps them from getting sued, but look, the individuals are being sued too. So much for an LLC protection.
    Here who is being sued:


    Federal Trade Commission, and
    Utah Division of Consumer Protection,
    Plaintiffs,
    v.
    Nudge, LLC, a Utah limited liability company; Response Marketing Group, LLC, a Utah limited liability company, also doing business as, 3 Day Real Estate Training, Abundance Edu, LLC, Affluence Edu, LLC, American Money Tour, Cash Flow EDU, Clark EDU, LLC, Edge 2 Real Estate, Evtech Media North, Flip for Life, Flipping For Life, Income Events, Insider’s Financial Education, LLC, Leading Financial Education, LLC, Onwealth, Power Flip, Prosper Live, Property Education, LLC, Renovate To Rent, Simple Real Estate Training, Smart Flip, Snap Flip, US Education Advance, Vintage Flip, Visionary Events, Wealth Tribe, Women’s Empowerment, Yancey Events, Yancey, LLC, and Your Real Estate Today, a Utah limited liability company; BuyPD, LLC, a Utah limited liability company; Brandon B. Lewis, individually and as a principal and owner of Nudge, LLC, Response Marketing Group, LLC, and BuyPD, LLC; Ryan C Poelman, individually and as a principal and owner of Nudge, LLC, Response Marketing Group, LLC, and BuyPD, LLC; Phillip W. Smith, individually and as a principal and owner of Nudge, LLC, Response Marketing Group, LLC, and BuyPD, LLC; Shawn L. Finnegan, individually and as a principal and owner of Nudge, LLC, Response Marketing Group, LLC, and BuyPD, LLC; and Clint R. Sanderson, individually and as an officer of Response Marketing Group, LLC, and BuyPD, LLC, Defendants.
    FTC Matter/File Number 182 3016Federal Court District of Utah
    https://www.ftc.gov/legal-libr...




    I missed this last year..  I was in Nudges offices a few years back when they were looking for someone to help them out of the Detroit mess that they created.. these guys had a monster machine . Same day they were meeting with me they had a finance guy in talking about how they could finance their students tuition's.
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Tom Gimer:

    Can't some fool jump in here with a quick "Pace Morby is the best thing that ever happened to me" comment to lighten things up?


    Tom Coming to Baltimore tomorrow you in town ?
  • Tom GimerBusiness Member
    DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Tom Gimer:

    Can't some fool jump in here with a quick "Pace Morby is the best thing that ever happened to me" comment to lighten things up?


    Tom Coming to Baltimore tomorrow you in town ?

    Yes -- if I can help in any way or just want to meet up let me know.

    Gimer Law516 Reviews
  • Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Account Closed:

    People always assume that having an LLC keeps them from getting sued, but look, the individuals are being sued too. So much for an LLC protection.
    Here who is being sued:


    Federal Trade Commission, and
    Utah Division of Consumer Protection,
    Plaintiffs,
    v.
    Nudge, LLC, a Utah limited liability company; Response Marketing Group, LLC, a Utah limited liability company, also doing business as, 3 Day Real Estate Training, Abundance Edu, LLC, Affluence Edu, LLC, American Money Tour, Cash Flow EDU, Clark EDU, LLC, Edge 2 Real Estate, Evtech Media North, Flip for Life, Flipping For Life, Income Events, Insider’s Financial Education, LLC, Leading Financial Education, LLC, Onwealth, Power Flip, Prosper Live, Property Education, LLC, Renovate To Rent, Simple Real Estate Training, Smart Flip, Snap Flip, US Education Advance, Vintage Flip, Visionary Events, Wealth Tribe, Women’s Empowerment, Yancey Events, Yancey, LLC, and Your Real Estate Today, a Utah limited liability company; BuyPD, LLC, a Utah limited liability company; Brandon B. Lewis, individually and as a principal and owner of Nudge, LLC, Response Marketing Group, LLC, and BuyPD, LLC; Ryan C Poelman, individually and as a principal and owner of Nudge, LLC, Response Marketing Group, LLC, and BuyPD, LLC; Phillip W. Smith, individually and as a principal and owner of Nudge, LLC, Response Marketing Group, LLC, and BuyPD, LLC; Shawn L. Finnegan, individually and as a principal and owner of Nudge, LLC, Response Marketing Group, LLC, and BuyPD, LLC; and Clint R. Sanderson, individually and as an officer of Response Marketing Group, LLC, and BuyPD, LLC, Defendants.
    FTC Matter/File Number 182 3016Federal Court District of Utah
    https://www.ftc.gov/legal-libr...




    I missed this last year..  I was in Nudges offices a few years back when they were looking for someone to help them out of the Detroit mess that they created.. these guys had a monster machine . Same day they were meeting with me they had a finance guy in talking about how they could finance their students tuition's.
    Your comment: "they were looking for someone to help them out of the Detroit mess that they created."

    That's so typical. I suppose they thought they were the smartest guys in the room and the law and physics don't apply to them. :-)
    There is noting new under the sun and the FTC and DOJ have seen it all. They know where to look when they want to.
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