Using Subject To, to Get "Free" Properties - A Quick Guideline

Using Subject To, to Get "Free" Properties - A Quick Guideline

Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes

I often buy using Subject To to buy properties. If you choose to use this technique these are some of the Pitfalls to watch out for.

Subject To Pitfalls

1. The bank can call the loan due (due on sale cause).

2. You need money to do a "no money down" Subject To. The seller needs moving money, there are oftentimes an arrears that has to be paid on the loan, there are oftentimes HOA fees that are due, there are title costs, there are escrow costs, usually there is deferred maintenance, you have to make mortgage payments out of pocket until you get a renter in there, you have to pay utilities and taxes, and you need reserves in case it all doesn't go as planned.

3. You can really mess up the seller's credit if you miss payments and they can then sue you.

4. If the seller files bankruptcy in the future you have to prove to the court that you bought the house fairly. That means you have to hire an attorney with uncertain outcomes.

5. If there is a fire and you haven't set up your insurance properly you could be in for a big surprise and not receive a payout.

6. A common source of Subject To deals is people in distress (foreclosure) who have a pending sale date. If you promise them a "rescue" and you don't get it done before the foreclosure sale they can sue you and the local authorities can investigate you.

7. In many jurisdictions (Washington, Oregon, California & others) it is unlawful to contact people in foreclosure unless you are an attorney or real estate gent.

8. If you miss payments on the underlying loan you can go to jail after a very unpleasant investigation.

9. The seller can come back in a year or two and say the sale was unfair and they were taken advantage of and an attorney will believe them and sue you.

10. You can use a Quit Claim Deed and that can be rejected when you go to sell the property.

11. The seller can disappear from contact over time and not be available when you go to sell - you need their assistance oftentimes depending on the lender.

12. You can't contact the lender directly, they won't talk to you.

13. The payment can change and you won't be notified.

14. You can find out later that there was someone else on title that you weren't told about until you get sued.

15. Of course there are more Pitfalls. Did you think this was easy? ;-)

There are solutions for all of these but that is a conversation for later.

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Professional · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2016 · 126 posts · 123 votes
3y
Quote from @Matt Burr:

How do you handle number 5 with the insurance?

The downside I am trying to find a way around is how to insure correctly without the bank getting notified of the change in owner. 


1 - get a POA from the seller so you can handle it, and get in writing from the seller that in such a case you get the proceeds.  When the check comes however, they will still have to sign it over.

2 - Contact NREIG.  They know how to properly insure sub to deals to protect everyone.

https://nreig.com/insure-subje...
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  • Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Account Closed:

    I often buy using Subject To to buy properties. If you choose to use this technique these are some of the Pitfalls to watch out for.

    Subject To Pitfalls

    1. The bank can call the loan due (due on sale cause).

    2. You need money to do a "no money down" Subject To. The seller needs moving money, there are oftentimes an arrears that has to be paid on the loan, there are oftentimes HOA fees that are due, there are title costs, there are escrow costs, usually there is deferred maintenance, you have to make mortgage payments out of pocket until you get a renter in there, you have to pay utilities and taxes, and you need reserves in case it all doesn't go as planned.

    3. You can really mess up the seller's credit if you miss payments and they can then sue you.

    4. If the seller files bankruptcy in the future you have to prove to the court that you bought the house fairly. That means you have to hire an attorney with uncertain outcomes.

    5. If there is a fire and you haven't set up your insurance properly you could be in for a big surprise and not receive a payout.

    6. A common source of Subject To deals is people in distress (foreclosure) who have a pending sale date. If you promise them a "rescue" and you don't get it done before the foreclosure sale they can sue you and the local authorities can investigate you.

    7. In many jurisdictions (Washington, Oregon, California & others) it is unlawful to contact people in foreclosure unless you are an attorney or real estate gent.

    8. If you miss payments on the underlying loan you can go to jail after a very unpleasant investigation.

    9. The seller can come back in a year or two and say the sale was unfair and they were taken advantage of and an attorney will believe them and sue you.

    10. You can use a Quit Claim Deed and that can be rejected when you go to sell the property.

    11. The seller can disappear from contact over time and not be available when you go to sell - you need their assistance oftentimes depending on the lender.

    12. You can't contact the lender directly, they won't talk to you.

    13. The payment can change and you won't be notified.

    14. You can find out later that there was someone else on title that you weren't told about until you get sued.

    15. Of course there are more Pitfalls. Did you think this was easy? ;-)

    There are solutions for all of these but that is a conversation for later.

     I should add that if the seller gets a lien it can be placed against the property and now it becomes your problem.

  • Investor · Pearl, MS · Member since 2022 · 38 posts · 11 votes
    3y

    Nice info. Sounds good, but I did not know all of that was involved.

    Nice info, that helps.

  • I​nvestor & Agent · Tulsa, OK · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y

    @Account Closed good content. Have you, or anyone you know, been through something like that? Like maybe not all those pitfalls but a few? 
    Also, do you think it’s a little safer to sub to into a brrr? 

  • Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Nate Sanow:

    @Account Closed good content. Have you, or anyone you know, been through something like that? Like maybe not all those pitfalls but a few? 
    Also, do you think it’s a little safer to sub to into a brrr? 

    Yeah, unfortunately those things do happen and some happen often. I just responded to someone entertaining the idea of doing Subject To, which I enourage and an example I am currently doing. You can see that at 

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/... 
  • Member since 2021 · 42 posts · 19 votes
    3y

    Hey Mike. These are some very valuable information. I have been watching Pace Morby these days and these definitely gave me soemthing to think about. 

    Would you share some thought on the prevention measure on some of the items you mentioned? 

    Specifically items 4,5,8,9,11

    Thank you 

  • Real Estate Agent · Ava, MO · Member since 2022 · 31 posts · 45 votes
    3y

    Wow. This is a lot to consider. It seems like some of these would be buffered by using a credible loan servicer. The seller falling off the radar has a high likelihood, I never thought of that. Hopefully the record kept by the loan servicer would help. Some folks who subto also use an executory contract and it seems like that would make it a smoother process. Thank you for sharing this valuable info! 

  • Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y

    People always assume that having an LLC keeps them from getting sued, but look, the individuals are being sued too. So much for an LLC protection.
    Here who is being sued:


    Federal Trade Commission, and
    Utah Division of Consumer Protection,
    Plaintiffs,
    v.
    Nudge, LLC, a Utah limited liability company; Response Marketing Group, LLC, a Utah limited liability company, also doing business as, 3 Day Real Estate Training, Abundance Edu, LLC, Affluence Edu, LLC, American Money Tour, Cash Flow EDU, Clark EDU, LLC, Edge 2 Real Estate, Evtech Media North, Flip for Life, Flipping For Life, Income Events, Insider’s Financial Education, LLC, Leading Financial Education, LLC, Onwealth, Power Flip, Prosper Live, Property Education, LLC, Renovate To Rent, Simple Real Estate Training, Smart Flip, Snap Flip, US Education Advance, Vintage Flip, Visionary Events, Wealth Tribe, Women’s Empowerment, Yancey Events, Yancey, LLC, and Your Real Estate Today, a Utah limited liability company; BuyPD, LLC, a Utah limited liability company; Brandon B. Lewis, individually and as a principal and owner of Nudge, LLC, Response Marketing Group, LLC, and BuyPD, LLC; Ryan C Poelman, individually and as a principal and owner of Nudge, LLC, Response Marketing Group, LLC, and BuyPD, LLC; Phillip W. Smith, individually and as a principal and owner of Nudge, LLC, Response Marketing Group, LLC, and BuyPD, LLC; Shawn L. Finnegan, individually and as a principal and owner of Nudge, LLC, Response Marketing Group, LLC, and BuyPD, LLC; and Clint R. Sanderson, individually and as an officer of Response Marketing Group, LLC, and BuyPD, LLC, Defendants.
    FTC Matter/File Number 182 3016Federal Court District of Utah
    https://www.ftc.gov/legal-libr...



  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Account Closed:

    People always assume that having an LLC keeps them from getting sued, but look, the individuals are being sued too. So much for an LLC protection.
    Here who is being sued:


    Federal Trade Commission, and
    Utah Division of Consumer Protection,
    Plaintiffs,
    v.
    Nudge, LLC, a Utah limited liability company; Response Marketing Group, LLC, a Utah limited liability company, also doing business as, 3 Day Real Estate Training, Abundance Edu, LLC, Affluence Edu, LLC, American Money Tour, Cash Flow EDU, Clark EDU, LLC, Edge 2 Real Estate, Evtech Media North, Flip for Life, Flipping For Life, Income Events, Insider’s Financial Education, LLC, Leading Financial Education, LLC, Onwealth, Power Flip, Prosper Live, Property Education, LLC, Renovate To Rent, Simple Real Estate Training, Smart Flip, Snap Flip, US Education Advance, Vintage Flip, Visionary Events, Wealth Tribe, Women’s Empowerment, Yancey Events, Yancey, LLC, and Your Real Estate Today, a Utah limited liability company; BuyPD, LLC, a Utah limited liability company; Brandon B. Lewis, individually and as a principal and owner of Nudge, LLC, Response Marketing Group, LLC, and BuyPD, LLC; Ryan C Poelman, individually and as a principal and owner of Nudge, LLC, Response Marketing Group, LLC, and BuyPD, LLC; Phillip W. Smith, individually and as a principal and owner of Nudge, LLC, Response Marketing Group, LLC, and BuyPD, LLC; Shawn L. Finnegan, individually and as a principal and owner of Nudge, LLC, Response Marketing Group, LLC, and BuyPD, LLC; and Clint R. Sanderson, individually and as an officer of Response Marketing Group, LLC, and BuyPD, LLC, Defendants.
    FTC Matter/File Number 182 3016Federal Court District of Utah
    https://www.ftc.gov/legal-libr...




    I was in Nudges office a few years back that was or still is a big outfit.. talk about a money machine holly cow.  Long story but Nudge is just one of many fulfillment companies in Utah.  My reason for being there is they were looking for mid west cash flow and of course I fund a lot of that in my day job. But what they wanted did not exist without going into the hood.. Which of course is what they did so many of their clients lost a lot of money in Detroit specifically but they had a fricken machine and made money 15 different ways.. I think they had well over 200 employees at the Office I went to,  It was their headquarters all the honcho's named above officed there.
  • Drew SygitBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    3y

    If you properly transfer the deed and know what paperwork you need, only #1 is a real threat. 

  • New to Real Estate · CA · Member since 2021 · 33 posts · 23 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Drew Sygit:

    If you properly transfer the deed and know what paperwork you need, only #1 is a real threat. 


     Can you explain in depth this process and how to go about it? would love to PM to have a short discussion, thanks!

  • New to Real Estate · Huntsville, AL · Member since 2021 · 12 posts · 7 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Abe Rouz:
    Quote from @Drew Sygit:

    If you properly transfer the deed and know what paperwork you need, only #1 is a real threat. 


     Can you explain in depth this process and how to go about it? would love to PM to have a short discussion, thanks!

    Would love this info as well! @Drew Sygit

  • Matt BurrPro Member
    Real Estate Investor · Chelsea, MI · Member since 2017 · 56 posts · 13 votes
    3y

    How do you handle number 5 with the insurance?

    The downside I am trying to find a way around is how to insure correctly without the bank getting notified of the change in owner. 

  • Professional · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2016 · 126 posts · 123 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Drew Sygit:

    If you properly transfer the deed and know what paperwork you need, only #1 is a real threat. 


    If you properly transfer and know what paperwork you need, even #1 is not a threat.
  • Professional · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2016 · 126 posts · 123 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Matt Burr:

    How do you handle number 5 with the insurance?

    The downside I am trying to find a way around is how to insure correctly without the bank getting notified of the change in owner. 


    1 - get a POA from the seller so you can handle it, and get in writing from the seller that in such a case you get the proceeds.  When the check comes however, they will still have to sign it over.

    2 - Contact NREIG.  They know how to properly insure sub to deals to protect everyone.

    https://nreig.com/insure-subje...
  • Jose JacobPro Member
    Investor · 11040 · Member since 2019 · 186 posts · 111 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Matt Burr:

    How do you handle number 5 with the insurance?

    The downside I am trying to find a way around is how to insure correctly without the bank getting notified of the change in owner. 


     Bank may take an authorization from the seller to discuss loan with you.  This is what one of the Attrny I spoke to suggested.

  • Jose JacobPro Member
    Investor · 11040 · Member since 2019 · 186 posts · 111 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Drew Sygit:

    If you properly transfer the deed and know what paperwork you need, only #1 is a real threat. 


     This is not a SALE, its a deed transfer subject to. Attorney will work around it by wording it correctly.  

  • Jose JacobPro Member
    Investor · 11040 · Member since 2019 · 186 posts · 111 votes
    3y

    Everything comes with hard work and risks.  Can anyone tell me  how to make money without risk and hard work.  I wud like to know :)   Just like every other strategies, Sub-to has its own pros and cons and it is very hard to convince the seller like everything else. 

    Listen to Pace's podcast in BP.  You can see how hard he worked.  

    Good luck out there

  • Wendy PattonBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Clarkston, MI · Member since 2009 · 859 posts · 349 votes
    3y

    @Jose JacobA subject-to IS A SALE!  There may not be money exchanged and there may not be a mortgage payoff but there is a sale of the home.  Yes there is a transfer of the deed also which is typically (but not always) a part of the sale. 

    yes each bank/lender will have their own way to approve you to have authorization to talk to them.  

    Michigan Real Estate Investors533 Reviews
  • Rental Property Investor · Wichita Falls, TX · Member since 2018 · 353 posts · 79 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Account Closed:

    I often buy using Subject To to buy properties. If you choose to use this technique these are some of the Pitfalls to watch out for.

    Subject To Pitfalls

    1. The bank can call the loan due (due on sale cause).

    2. You need money to do a "no money down" Subject To. The seller needs moving money, there are oftentimes an arrears that has to be paid on the loan, there are oftentimes HOA fees that are due, there are title costs, there are escrow costs, usually there is deferred maintenance, you have to make mortgage payments out of pocket until you get a renter in there, you have to pay utilities and taxes, and you need reserves in case it all doesn't go as planned.

    3. You can really mess up the seller's credit if you miss payments and they can then sue you.

    4. If the seller files bankruptcy in the future you have to prove to the court that you bought the house fairly. That means you have to hire an attorney with uncertain outcomes.

    5. If there is a fire and you haven't set up your insurance properly you could be in for a big surprise and not receive a payout.

    6. A common source of Subject To deals is people in distress (foreclosure) who have a pending sale date. If you promise them a "rescue" and you don't get it done before the foreclosure sale they can sue you and the local authorities can investigate you.

    7. In many jurisdictions (Washington, Oregon, California & others) it is unlawful to contact people in foreclosure unless you are an attorney or real estate gent.

    8. If you miss payments on the underlying loan you can go to jail after a very unpleasant investigation.

    9. The seller can come back in a year or two and say the sale was unfair and they were taken advantage of and an attorney will believe them and sue you.

    10. You can use a Quit Claim Deed and that can be rejected when you go to sell the property.

    11. The seller can disappear from contact over time and not be available when you go to sell - you need their assistance oftentimes depending on the lender.

    12. You can't contact the lender directly, they won't talk to you.

    13. The payment can change and you won't be notified.

    14. You can find out later that there was someone else on title that you weren't told about until you get sued.

    15. Of course there are more Pitfalls. Did you think this was easy? ;-)

    There are solutions for all of these but that is a conversation for later.


     Isn't the Subject To Purchase Agreement / Contract able to help prevent a lot of this.  Can't you word it to where the Seller understands what is happening and keep the buyer free from lawsuit?  Whats the best way to protect yourself as the buyer.

  • Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Nathan Frost:
    Quote from @Account Closed:

    I often buy using Subject To to buy properties. If you choose to use this technique these are some of the Pitfalls to watch out for.

    Subject To Pitfalls

    1. The bank can call the loan due (due on sale cause).

    2. You need money to do a "no money down" Subject To. The seller needs moving money, there are oftentimes an arrears that has to be paid on the loan, there are oftentimes HOA fees that are due, there are title costs, there are escrow costs, usually there is deferred maintenance, you have to make mortgage payments out of pocket until you get a renter in there, you have to pay utilities and taxes, and you need reserves in case it all doesn't go as planned.

    3. You can really mess up the seller's credit if you miss payments and they can then sue you.

    4. If the seller files bankruptcy in the future you have to prove to the court that you bought the house fairly. That means you have to hire an attorney with uncertain outcomes.

    5. If there is a fire and you haven't set up your insurance properly you could be in for a big surprise and not receive a payout.

    6. A common source of Subject To deals is people in distress (foreclosure) who have a pending sale date. If you promise them a "rescue" and you don't get it done before the foreclosure sale they can sue you and the local authorities can investigate you.

    7. In many jurisdictions (Washington, Oregon, California & others) it is unlawful to contact people in foreclosure unless you are an attorney or real estate gent.

    8. If you miss payments on the underlying loan you can go to jail after a very unpleasant investigation.

    9. The seller can come back in a year or two and say the sale was unfair and they were taken advantage of and an attorney will believe them and sue you.

    10. You can use a Quit Claim Deed and that can be rejected when you go to sell the property.

    11. The seller can disappear from contact over time and not be available when you go to sell - you need their assistance oftentimes depending on the lender.

    12. You can't contact the lender directly, they won't talk to you.

    13. The payment can change and you won't be notified.

    14. You can find out later that there was someone else on title that you weren't told about until you get sued.

    15. Of course there are more Pitfalls. Did you think this was easy? ;-)

    There are solutions for all of these but that is a conversation for later.


     Isn't the Subject To Purchase Agreement / Contract able to help prevent a lot of this.  Can't you word it to where the Seller understands what is happening and keep the buyer free from lawsuit?  Whats the best way to protect yourself as the buyer.

    No, the P&SA isn't enough. You need additional agreements called "disclosures", POA and other paperwork. Depending on how well written they are and the "then current" financial laws and the state & county the property is in and the type of lawsuit and the mood of the court and the expertise of your attorney, you can mitigate most risk but not all. Even if you do things perfectly, you can still be sued. You have to prove innocence. Bummer, I know, but that is how it works. It costs about $25,000 for a simple lawsuit and $50,000 or more for one that goes to appeal. If you are actively buying using creative finance, at some time you will be sued. Keep money on hand.

    But, if you are well funded, know what you are doing, stick to the law, are proactive, are organized and honest and don't promise what you can't perform and don't "rent back" to the seller for any reason at all and don't borrow from or involve people who can't afford to lose their investment with you and don't put 3rd and 4th liens (borrowed money) on properties and don't buy from "vulnerable people", and you buy only in states that don't focus on suing for perceived wrongs, it won't be a problem, most of the time. ;-)

  • Real Estate Consultant · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 45 posts · 39 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Patrick K.:

    Hey Mike. These are some very valuable information. I have been watching Pace Morby these days and these definitely gave me something to think about. 

    Would you share some thought on the prevention measure on some of the items you mentioned? 

    Specifically items 4,5,8,9,11

    Thank you 

    4. If the seller files bankruptcy in the future you have to prove to the court that you bought the house fairly. That means you have to hire an attorney with uncertain outcomes.

    This has happened on properties I have acquired, I have never had an issue with the Trustee, I just talk to them, walk them thru the deal, all has always been OK, never had to hire an attorney for a bankruptcy. But I always ask the seller before making the deal if they are or have considered filing a Bankruptcy.

     5. If there is a fire and you haven't set up your insurance properly you could be in for a big surprise and not receive a payout.

    This is why you as the investor must do this the right way, you need to move the insurance to your preferred  Insurance provider who you have a relationship with and there are some other areas you need to make sure takes place. This is one area I see Investors screw up on often, the policy must be structured correctly. 

    8. If you miss payments on the underlying loan you can go to jail after a very unpleasant investigation.

    Yes, everyone needs to have at least one exit strategy in place if life become hard, if you bought right and are cash flowing, you should not have a problem getting another investor friend to take the property off your hands. Unless you become stupid and greedy, then this is on the investor.

    9. The seller can come back in a year or two and say the sale was unfair and they were taken advantage of and an attorney will believe them and sue you.

    This is why I always tell investors to make sure you have good disclosures, you make sure the seller knows the process and nothing is left unsaid, this is one of the biggest reasons why I have been teaching Subject 2 investment for more than 15 years and providing disclosures to investors.

    11. The seller can disappear from contact over time and not be available when you go to sell - you need their assistance oftentimes depending on the lender.

    Yes, you can use contact with sellers or they die, I always work to have information on at least one family member and let the seller know why. If this happens I have never had a Title Company or a lender not allow me to resale the property. This is why I always have a great Title Company (Escrow Officer) who can think outside the box.

    Great questions.

    Roger Paschal 

    Author, Consultant, Speaker, Coach, Investor and Realtor

    Subject2Institute.com




  • Real Estate Consultant · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 45 posts · 39 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jose Jacob:

    Everything comes with hard work and risks.  Can anyone tell me  how to make money without risk and hard work.  I wud like to know :)   Just like every other strategies, Sub-to has its own pros and cons and it is very hard to convince the seller like everything else. 

    Listen to Pace's podcast in BP.  You can see how hard he worked.  

    Good luck out there


     It is not hard to convince a seller to let you make their payments if you know what to say and you know how this process works and they are motivated. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Saginaw, MI · Member since 2022 · 28 posts · 15 votes
    3y

    I agree everything is a risk.  I'm trying to understand how #1 is not mortgage fraud? Seems like a legal risk with no protection to the "Sub to" purchaser and holds no liable responsibilities the  "Sub to" agent.  

    I have attended Pace Morby seminars and seems like a profitable risk, but worried the legal consequences would exceed the "sub to" profits and compromise my license.  Any insight or knowledge would be appreciated this way:)

  • Member since 2021 · 1 post · 0 votes
    3y

    If we buy a home subject to from a seller who is facing foreclosure, and that seller then has to rent someplace to live, how will the existing loan impact that ability?  We kept the foreclosure off their record so that helps, but when rental company runs credit they will see that obligation, won’t they ? 

  • Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Dean Smith:

    If we buy a home subject to from a seller who is facing foreclosure, and that seller then has to rent someplace to live, how will the existing loan impact that ability?  We kept the foreclosure off their record so that helps, but when rental company runs credit they will see that obligation, won’t they ? 

    I'm curious, how do you know you "kept the foreclosure off their record"?
    Did you see all 3 credit reports (Experian, Equifax and Trans Union for each of them) 60 days or more after closing? I'd love to know. Maybe things have changed.

    Standard is, that once the Notice of Trustee Sale (Foreclosure) is recorded, long before the Auction date, the public record becomes part of their credit report. They can tell a future creditor that they sold before the sale date (if that is what happened) but the foreclosure status most likely will show up on their credit report for seven years even if you bought the property before the sale. I hope things have changed, let me know if they have.


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