Section 8 Real Estate Investing
Member since 2023 · 10 posts · 9 votes
Section 8 Real Estate Investing
Most Popular Reply
Joe HammelBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Metro Detroit, MI · Member since 2018 · 612 posts · 666 votesI have a few section 8 in my Metro Detroit Portfolio. Great Price/Rent ratios (technically #1 in the country...just saying lol) For real though, it has a very strong rental demand, low price to entry, plenty of jobs....and did I mention low price to entry? Just can't beat the cash flow.
$100k a year off 16 properties. Started buying 2019. Here is my portfolio for proof....
FIRE Realty Team - Keller Williams5379 Reviews
69 Replies
- 2yAJ ExnerPro MemberLender · Springfield, MO · Member since 2023 · 654 posts · 315 votes
Quote from @Roohil Hamid:
Hi all, I am looking to buy some properties out of state for cash flow. Any city recs? I was looking into Cleveland, I have some properties that caught me eye in the 80-100k range.. I wanted to pick up a few and rent them to section 8. I just wanted to know, how is the rental market? How fast will section 8 tenants apply? Is there demand? Or too saturated?
Hey Roohil,
You will find some good section 8 opportunities all over the country, I even have a client that finds them throughout Oklahoma. So wherever you can find good properties, build a reliable team, and have a solid property manager that can help screen and understands what Section 8 brings, then you should go for it.
That being said, the area I'm seeing a lot of work being done has been up in Philadelphia/Pittsburgh. The housing authority is pretty tricky, but a lot of good opportunities all over.
- Investor · Arroyo Grande, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2y
Cleveland has been extremely popular. A lot of folks here are still advocating for it but when I talk with investors (dozens each week) I hear the same thing... "the numbers no longer work in Cleveland".
Maybe they do for you, but I'd make sure you're really understanding your numbers, the areas, etc.
I personally prefer (and am biased to) Detroit. I have 12-doors there with a few of those rented to Section 8 tenants.
If you're looking at Cleveland you'd do yourself a disservice not to also look at Detroit. Typical SFH deals can be done in the $70k-$90k range and rent for $1,100-$1,400 depending on area.
I do a lot of deals there outside my own portfolio and know the Detroit landscape intimately.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes2y
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Cleveland has been extremely popular. A lot of folks here are still advocating for it but when I talk with investors (dozens each week) I hear the same thing... "the numbers no longer work in Cleveland".
Maybe they do for you, but I'd make sure you're really understanding your numbers, the areas, etc.
I personally prefer (and am biased to) Detroit. I have 12-doors there with a few of those rented to Section 8 tenants.
If you're looking at Cleveland you'd do yourself a disservice not to also look at Detroit. Typical SFH deals can be done in the $70k-$90k range and rent for $1,100-$1,400 depending on area.
I do a lot of deals there outside my own portfolio and know the Detroit landscape intimately.
Cleveland & Detroit are gonna be the same really. Numbers above are about identical to what you're gonna get in Cleveland.
What you buy in one of these markets and how you manage it are going to be much more impactful to your bottom line than which market you buy in.
- Real Estate Consultant · Cleveland · Member since 2020 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes2y
Quote from @Roohil Hamid:
Hi all, I am looking to buy some properties out of state for cash flow. Any city recs? I was looking into Cleveland, I have some properties that caught me eye in the 80-100k range.. I wanted to pick up a few and rent them to section 8. I just wanted to know, how is the rental market? How fast will section 8 tenants apply? Is there demand? Or too saturated?
I have done about 1k move in and outs with Sec 8, HUGE demand. Just this week I will have 3 or 4 move ins. last week I had a move in with other govt program EDEN. . How is the rental market? Well, you missed the 25-30% net caps from 6, 7 years ago, but you can still get 10% based on cash purchase. I am putting in a govt program tenant in about 2 weeks, 1400. My all-in price is 65k, do the math :). I get 30 calls a week from tenants looking. You are not getting anything for 80k, it will be about 100k, with 1200- 1300 in rent.
Good luck
- Real Estate Consultant · Cleveland · Member since 2020 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes2y
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Cleveland has been extremely popular. A lot of folks here are still advocating for it but when I talk with investors (dozens each week) I hear the same thing... "the numbers no longer work in Cleveland".
Maybe they do for you, but I'd make sure you're really understanding your numbers, the areas, etc.
I personally prefer (and am biased to) Detroit. I have 12-doors there with a few of those rented to Section 8 tenants.
If you're looking at Cleveland you'd do yourself a disservice not to also look at Detroit. Typical SFH deals can be done in the $70k-$90k range and rent for $1,100-$1,400 depending on area.
I do a lot of deals there outside my own portfolio and know the Detroit landscape intimately.
"the numbers no longer work in Cleveland". Not sure who you are speaking with, but they do not have a clue what they are talking about. If all in 100kish with rents from 1100 -1400 does not work, then what does? I just locked up 6 SF and one duplex. All are about 85k each all in, Euclid, Lee Harvard, N Collinwood (duplex). The SF have rents from 1100- 1300. The duplex will rent for not less than 850/850, find a better deal anywhere in America. Most Duplex's all in 110- 120k, with about 13k-15k NET income, hmm how much better can you get ? Detroit and Cleve numbers are basically the same. Its ALL about how they are managed as James said.
All the best
- 2yJoe HammelBusiness MemberReal Estate Agent · Metro Detroit, MI · Member since 2018 · 612 posts · 666 votes
I have a few section 8 in my Metro Detroit Portfolio. Great Price/Rent ratios (technically #1 in the country...just saying lol) For real though, it has a very strong rental demand, low price to entry, plenty of jobs....and did I mention low price to entry? Just can't beat the cash flow.
$100k a year off 16 properties. Started buying 2019. Here is my portfolio for proof....
FIRE Realty Team - Keller Williams5379 Reviews - Investor · Arroyo Grande, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2y
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
- Real Estate Consultant · Cleveland · Member since 2020 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes2y
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
Not biased at all. I simple state facts. NO, you are not stating the truth. The folks you're speaking with that say Cleveland no longer makes sense simply have no idea what they are talking about nor do you. Sitting on the internet which you are clearly doing is a complete waste of time. I have done about 500 deals, yes 500, own 100+ doors there, NONE of my 3 brs are less then 1100, some are 1300. I will get 1400 for my 4 br next week that I am all in for about 65k in Lee Harvard, comps about 120k. I get 800- 850 for 1 brs in East Cleveland. See I do not sit on the internet, I actually do vs just reading.
BTW what does the internet say about East Cleveland? I bet RUN right? Well again, the internet would be 100% incorrect as usual. I just picked up a 7 unit, all in 225k rents are about 53k gross,,,, IMO it will be worth 450k in 5 years. But hey what do I know :)
Continue your success in Detroit but, don't sit here and bash Cleveland without any 1st hand knowledge. There is nothing I am not aware of in the Cleveland markets. My biggest regret is not keeping 50 more of the 500 or so I flipped, HUGE mistake cost me millions.
All the best
- Investor · Arroyo Grande, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2y
Quote from @Bob S.:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
Not biased at all. I simple state facts. The folks you're speaking with that say Cleveland no longer makes sense simply have no idea what they are talking about. Sitting on the internet which you are clearly doing is a complete waste of time. I have done about 500 deals, yes 500, own 100+ doors there, NONE of my 3 brs are less then 1100, some are 1300. I will get 1400 for my 4 br next week. I get 800 for 1 brs in East Cleveland. See I do not sit on the internet, I actually do vs just reading.
continue your success in Detroit,
All the best
Thanks, Bob. Appreciate the anecdotal data and I can also appreciate how real-life data differs from these median benchmarks Zillow spits out.
That said, you also need to appreciate that it goes both ways.
The fact that you're seeing better numbers in real-life in Cleveland than what Zillow is showing us means the same is happening in other markets too. I can attest to that in Detroit. I have houses rented at $1,300 - $1,700/mo there personally.
I was simply showing the data as a benchmark of what folks can expect. The reality is rents, on average, are higher in Detroit while home prices (again, on average) are lower.
You can splice and skew it any way you want but those are facts and data.
- Member since 2023 · 1 post · 0 votes2yWhat are some C+ & B neighborhoods in Detroit I should be looking at?
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Cleveland has been extremely popular. A lot of folks here are still advocating for it but when I talk with investors (dozens each week) I hear the same thing... "the numbers no longer work in Cleveland".
Maybe they do for you, but I'd make sure you're really understanding your numbers, the areas, etc.
I personally prefer (and am biased to) Detroit. I have 12-doors there with a few of those rented to Section 8 tenants.
If you're looking at Cleveland you'd do yourself a disservice not to also look at Detroit. Typical SFH deals can be done in the $70k-$90k range and rent for $1,100-$1,400 depending on area.
I do a lot of deals there outside my own portfolio and know the Detroit landscape intimately.
- Real Estate Consultant · Cleveland · Member since 2020 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes2y
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @Bob S.:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
Not biased at all. I simple state facts. The folks you're speaking with that say Cleveland no longer makes sense simply have no idea what they are talking about. Sitting on the internet which you are clearly doing is a complete waste of time. I have done about 500 deals, yes 500, own 100+ doors there, NONE of my 3 brs are less then 1100, some are 1300. I will get 1400 for my 4 br next week. I get 800 for 1 brs in East Cleveland. See I do not sit on the internet, I actually do vs just reading.
continue your success in Detroit,
All the best
Thanks, Bob. Appreciate the anecdotal data and I can also appreciate how real-life data differs from these median benchmarks Zillow spits out.
That said, you also need to appreciate that it goes both ways.
The fact that you're seeing better numbers in real-life in Cleveland than what Zillow is showing us means the same is happening in other markets too. I can attest to that in Detroit. I have houses rented at $1,300 - $1,700/mo there personally.
I was simply showing the data as a benchmark of what folks can expect. The reality is rents, on average, are higher in Detroit while home prices (again, on average) are lower.
You can splice and skew it any way you want but those are facts and data.
Too funny, NOT facts. sit on the internet, 100% waste of time.
All the best
- Investor · Arroyo Grande, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2y
Quote from @Roohil Hamid:
What are some C+ & B neighborhoods in Detroit I should be looking at?Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Cleveland has been extremely popular. A lot of folks here are still advocating for it but when I talk with investors (dozens each week) I hear the same thing... "the numbers no longer work in Cleveland".
Maybe they do for you, but I'd make sure you're really understanding your numbers, the areas, etc.
I personally prefer (and am biased to) Detroit. I have 12-doors there with a few of those rented to Section 8 tenants.
If you're looking at Cleveland you'd do yourself a disservice not to also look at Detroit. Typical SFH deals can be done in the $70k-$90k range and rent for $1,100-$1,400 depending on area.
I do a lot of deals there outside my own portfolio and know the Detroit landscape intimately.
That's an insanely loaded question that's not easily answered. I could write a couple thousand words on the subject (and have). Happy to help via DM but throwing it all up in the forum isn't efficient.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes2y
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
lol, takes a mighty big pair of stones to base your argument off of data provided by Zillow.
- Investor · Arroyo Grande, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2y
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
lol, takes a mighty big pair of stones to base your argument off of data provided by Zillow.
Yes, James, it seems folks like to hyper focus on the fact I quoted Zillow data as if that destroys the underlying point.
The reality is the price-to-rent ratio in Detroit is far more favorable than it is in Cleveland.
If you believe that to be an inaccurate statement I would genuinely like to see your public data source because every single one I've looked at supports that claim.
- Real Estate Consultant · Cleveland · Member since 2020 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes2y
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
lol, takes a mighty big pair of stones to base your argument off of data provided by Zillow.
Funny right, LOVE these anal lists that think they know what they are talking about, when in reality are clueless,
Continues success James,
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes2y
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
lol, takes a mighty big pair of stones to base your argument off of data provided by Zillow.
Yes, James, it seems folks like to hyper focus on the fact I quoted Zillow data as if that destroys the underlying point.
The reality is the price-to-rent ratio in Detroit is far more favorable than it is in Cleveland.
If you believe that to be an inaccurate statement I would genuinely like to see your public data source because every single one I've looked at supports that claim.
At the end of the day, what really matters is that everyone reading this understands the following.
Travis is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Detroit. Bob is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Cleveland. Because of this Travis is going to present the data in a way that makes Detroit look better. Bob is going to do the same for Cleveland.
Myself, I make money working with investors in multiple markets and I can tell you all from an unbiased standpoint, that after doing over $200 Million in transactions, most all of these midwestern markets are the same.
Any market difference is going to be splitting hairs when it comes to the bottom line of your portfolio. If you are on BP you are likely an investor who is gonna buy like 1-10 houses. Those 1-10 houses being in Detroit or Cleveland or Akron or Baltimore or Indy or KC or Toledo or wherever doesn't really matter. What matters is what you buy in that market and how you manage it. - 2yJay ThomasPro MemberReal Estate Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 715 votes
Cleveland's rental market has been steadily growing due to factors like population increase, improved job opportunities, and a heightened demand for affordable housing. The city's diverse neighborhoods offer various rental rates and property conditions. Section 8 properties can be lucrative for a stable income, particularly in areas with a high concentration of low-income households. However, managing Section 8 properties comes with challenges, including navigating government regulations and addressing tenant issues. Despite strong demand, the abundance of Section 8 properties in Cleveland raises concerns about potential oversaturation in certain neighborhoods, making tenant acquisition and maintaining high occupancy rates more challenging. For successful Section 8 investments, it's recommended to target areas with strong rental demand, low vacancy rates, and stable property values, while conducting thorough research on neighborhood factors like crime rates and school quality.
- Investor · Arroyo Grande, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2y
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
lol, takes a mighty big pair of stones to base your argument off of data provided by Zillow.
Yes, James, it seems folks like to hyper focus on the fact I quoted Zillow data as if that destroys the underlying point.
The reality is the price-to-rent ratio in Detroit is far more favorable than it is in Cleveland.
If you believe that to be an inaccurate statement I would genuinely like to see your public data source because every single one I've looked at supports that claim.
At the end of the day, what really matters is that everyone reading this understands the following.
Travis is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Detroit. Bob is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Cleveland. Because of this Travis is going to present the data in a way that makes Detroit look better. Bob is going to do the same for Cleveland.
Myself, I make money working with investors in multiple markets and I can tell you all from an unbiased standpoint that after doing over $200 Million in transactions, most all of these midwestern markets are the same.
Any market difference is going to be splitting hairs when it comes to the bottom line of your portfolio. If you are on BP you are likely an investor who is gonna buy like 1-10 houses. Those 1-10 houses being in Detroit or Cleveland or Akron or Baltimore or Indy or KC or Toledo or wherever doesn't really matter. What matters is what you buy in that market and how you manage it.James, a lot of this is definitely true.
I'm not going to nitpick everything but one big correction here is I am not "presenting" the data in one particular way.
I am literally quoting publicly available data. I have not manipulated it in any way and if someone takes issue with my source I'd love to see a different publicly available source that changes the underlying point.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes2y
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
lol, takes a mighty big pair of stones to base your argument off of data provided by Zillow.
Yes, James, it seems folks like to hyper focus on the fact I quoted Zillow data as if that destroys the underlying point.
The reality is the price-to-rent ratio in Detroit is far more favorable than it is in Cleveland.
If you believe that to be an inaccurate statement I would genuinely like to see your public data source because every single one I've looked at supports that claim.
At the end of the day, what really matters is that everyone reading this understands the following.
Travis is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Detroit. Bob is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Cleveland. Because of this Travis is going to present the data in a way that makes Detroit look better. Bob is going to do the same for Cleveland.
Myself, I make money working with investors in multiple markets and I can tell you all from an unbiased standpoint that after doing over $200 Million in transactions, most all of these midwestern markets are the same.
Any market difference is going to be splitting hairs when it comes to the bottom line of your portfolio. If you are on BP you are likely an investor who is gonna buy like 1-10 houses. Those 1-10 houses being in Detroit or Cleveland or Akron or Baltimore or Indy or KC or Toledo or wherever doesn't really matter. What matters is what you buy in that market and how you manage it.James, a lot of this is definitely true.
I'm not going to nitpick everything but one big correction here is I am not "presenting" the data in one particular way.
I am literally quoting publicly available data. I have not manipulated it in any way and if someone takes issue with my source I'd love to see a different publicly available source that changes the underlying point.
C'mon now Travis, you're a smart guy. If you really wanted to, I am sure you could take all of that publicly available data and make a pitch for why Cleveland is better than Detroit. But you are not going to, because that wouldn't get you paid. Same reason Bob won't make a pitch for Detroit even though he probably could if he was incentivized to do so.
- Investor · Arroyo Grande, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2y
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
lol, takes a mighty big pair of stones to base your argument off of data provided by Zillow.
Yes, James, it seems folks like to hyper focus on the fact I quoted Zillow data as if that destroys the underlying point.
The reality is the price-to-rent ratio in Detroit is far more favorable than it is in Cleveland.
If you believe that to be an inaccurate statement I would genuinely like to see your public data source because every single one I've looked at supports that claim.
At the end of the day, what really matters is that everyone reading this understands the following.
Travis is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Detroit. Bob is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Cleveland. Because of this Travis is going to present the data in a way that makes Detroit look better. Bob is going to do the same for Cleveland.
Myself, I make money working with investors in multiple markets and I can tell you all from an unbiased standpoint that after doing over $200 Million in transactions, most all of these midwestern markets are the same.
Any market difference is going to be splitting hairs when it comes to the bottom line of your portfolio. If you are on BP you are likely an investor who is gonna buy like 1-10 houses. Those 1-10 houses being in Detroit or Cleveland or Akron or Baltimore or Indy or KC or Toledo or wherever doesn't really matter. What matters is what you buy in that market and how you manage it.James, a lot of this is definitely true.
I'm not going to nitpick everything but one big correction here is I am not "presenting" the data in one particular way.
I am literally quoting publicly available data. I have not manipulated it in any way and if someone takes issue with my source I'd love to see a different publicly available source that changes the underlying point.
C'mon now Travis, you're a smart guy. If you really wanted to, I am sure you can take all of that publicly available data and make a pitch for why Detroit is better than Cleveland, just like Bob could take that same data and make his pitch for why Cleveland is better than Detroit.
Sure, anyone could cherry pick data and spin a story for why something is better than something else.
But, again, that's not what we're doing here.
I am purely looking at the price-to-rent ratio. This is publicly available data that you can pull from multiple sources. One could try and manipulate it but the data sources are easily verifiable.
And again, price-to-rent ratio grossly favors Detroit over Cleveland. If it was the other way around, there is no way I could argue it. And that's why literally nobody has piped up to say that I'm wrong on that account.
The data doesn't support it so you simply can't claim Cleveland is better than Detroit from a price-to-rent ratio. It's quantitative. And it's really that easy.
- Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes2y
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
lol, takes a mighty big pair of stones to base your argument off of data provided by Zillow.
Yes, James, it seems folks like to hyper focus on the fact I quoted Zillow data as if that destroys the underlying point.
The reality is the price-to-rent ratio in Detroit is far more favorable than it is in Cleveland.
If you believe that to be an inaccurate statement I would genuinely like to see your public data source because every single one I've looked at supports that claim.
At the end of the day, what really matters is that everyone reading this understands the following.
Travis is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Detroit. Bob is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Cleveland. Because of this Travis is going to present the data in a way that makes Detroit look better. Bob is going to do the same for Cleveland.
Myself, I make money working with investors in multiple markets and I can tell you all from an unbiased standpoint that after doing over $200 Million in transactions, most all of these midwestern markets are the same.
Any market difference is going to be splitting hairs when it comes to the bottom line of your portfolio. If you are on BP you are likely an investor who is gonna buy like 1-10 houses. Those 1-10 houses being in Detroit or Cleveland or Akron or Baltimore or Indy or KC or Toledo or wherever doesn't really matter. What matters is what you buy in that market and how you manage it.James, a lot of this is definitely true.
I'm not going to nitpick everything but one big correction here is I am not "presenting" the data in one particular way.
I am literally quoting publicly available data. I have not manipulated it in any way and if someone takes issue with my source I'd love to see a different publicly available source that changes the underlying point.
C'mon now Travis, you're a smart guy. If you really wanted to, I am sure you can take all of that publicly available data and make a pitch for why Detroit is better than Cleveland, just like Bob could take that same data and make his pitch for why Cleveland is better than Detroit.
Sure, anyone could cherry pick data and spin a story for why something is better than something else.
But, again, that's not what we're doing here.
I am purely looking at the price-to-rent ratio. This is publicly available data that you can pull from multiple sources. One could try and manipulate it but the data sources are easily verifiable.
And again, price-to-rent ratio grossly favors Detroit over Cleveland. If it was the other way around, there is no way I could argue it. And that's why literally nobody has piped up to say that I'm wrong on that account.
The data doesn't support it so you simply can't claim Cleveland is better than Detroit from a price-to-rent ratio. It's quantitative. And it's really that easy.
Ok, I'll say it; Your wrong.
Moreover, anyone using 1 single metric pinned for a specific point in time to make an assessment of the enduring quality of a market; IS WRONG.
Yes, price to rent ratio in Detroit, now, at this moment in time, is 5.82, less than Cleveland at 7.57. And what does that math mean? It means price to rent ratio RIGHT NOW is less in Detroit vs Cleveland, FULL-STOP. It does not mean tenant's are better in Detroit, it does not mean one will make more $ in Detroit, it does not mean PMc fee's are more or less anywhere, no bearing in vacancy rates, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY it does not mean rent's will continue where they are and not change in either market.
What if rent's appreciate in Cleveland at 7% annually and 2% in Detroit, is Detroit still "better" because of the price to rent ratio TODAY?
When buying investment real estate most do it for YEARS of hold time and actions. So how much does it matter what is "cheapest" vs rent's to buy now? I think how it's going to perform over the YEARS of operation is what matters MOST, by a landslide.
Could Detroit be "better", sure, but it may NOT be just the same. We don't know from this 1 snippet that only says one can buy a bit better margin at start. Is anyone asking WHY? Is there just collective idiocy in Detroit and people are just handing away properties?
It's good and grand getting a bigger margin day 1 but rarely does that indicate a place has a great forward future. Because there is most often good reasons for a market being the single cheapest properties one can buy, like a declining market. I am not a fan of catching falling knives. You may be happy to sell them because commission check matters more, me, I prefer life-time client's so not for me.
If the best argument a person can put forward for the strength of a market is to only brag it's cheapest, well that tells me a whole lot more about how weak the market is than anything else.
I would much rather have smaller margin yr1 and have strong appreciation, high desirability, strong tenancy base, good vendor pool, STRONG PERFORMANCE indicators going forward, than just say "look, it was cheapest when i bought it".
So it's cheapest, congratulation's, that only means it's cheapest, nothing more. I am investing, my client's are investing, we want RETURNS not cheapest buy. Cheap does not = return's, it ='s cheap, nothing more. If you want to convince of RETURNS, show us something speaking of the next 3-7yrs, something of tenancy base, median incomes going up, stronger healthier tenancy with stable cost of operations.
- Rental Property Investor · Brooke Park Drive · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes2y
Quote from @Roohil Hamid:
Hi all, I am looking to buy some properties out of state for cash flow. Any city recs? I was looking into Cleveland, I have some properties that caught me eye in the 80-100k range.. I wanted to pick up a few and rent them to section 8. I just wanted to know, how is the rental market? How fast will section 8 tenants apply? Is there demand? Or too saturated?
Check out Toledo. Far superior to Detroit.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes2y
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Roohil Hamid:
Hi all, I am looking to buy some properties out of state for cash flow. Any city recs? I was looking into Cleveland, I have some properties that caught me eye in the 80-100k range.. I wanted to pick up a few and rent them to section 8. I just wanted to know, how is the rental market? How fast will section 8 tenants apply? Is there demand? Or too saturated?
Check out Toledo. Far superior to Detroit.
Little Detroit can never be superior to Regular Detroit.
- Investor · Arroyo Grande, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2y
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
lol, takes a mighty big pair of stones to base your argument off of data provided by Zillow.
Yes, James, it seems folks like to hyper focus on the fact I quoted Zillow data as if that destroys the underlying point.
The reality is the price-to-rent ratio in Detroit is far more favorable than it is in Cleveland.
If you believe that to be an inaccurate statement I would genuinely like to see your public data source because every single one I've looked at supports that claim.
At the end of the day, what really matters is that everyone reading this understands the following.
Travis is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Detroit. Bob is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Cleveland. Because of this Travis is going to present the data in a way that makes Detroit look better. Bob is going to do the same for Cleveland.
Myself, I make money working with investors in multiple markets and I can tell you all from an unbiased standpoint that after doing over $200 Million in transactions, most all of these midwestern markets are the same.
Any market difference is going to be splitting hairs when it comes to the bottom line of your portfolio. If you are on BP you are likely an investor who is gonna buy like 1-10 houses. Those 1-10 houses being in Detroit or Cleveland or Akron or Baltimore or Indy or KC or Toledo or wherever doesn't really matter. What matters is what you buy in that market and how you manage it.James, a lot of this is definitely true.
I'm not going to nitpick everything but one big correction here is I am not "presenting" the data in one particular way.
I am literally quoting publicly available data. I have not manipulated it in any way and if someone takes issue with my source I'd love to see a different publicly available source that changes the underlying point.
C'mon now Travis, you're a smart guy. If you really wanted to, I am sure you can take all of that publicly available data and make a pitch for why Detroit is better than Cleveland, just like Bob could take that same data and make his pitch for why Cleveland is better than Detroit.
Sure, anyone could cherry pick data and spin a story for why something is better than something else.
But, again, that's not what we're doing here.
I am purely looking at the price-to-rent ratio. This is publicly available data that you can pull from multiple sources. One could try and manipulate it but the data sources are easily verifiable.
And again, price-to-rent ratio grossly favors Detroit over Cleveland. If it was the other way around, there is no way I could argue it. And that's why literally nobody has piped up to say that I'm wrong on that account.
The data doesn't support it so you simply can't claim Cleveland is better than Detroit from a price-to-rent ratio. It's quantitative. And it's really that easy.
Ok, I'll say it; Your wrong.
Moreover, anyone using 1 single metric pinned for a specific point in time to make an assessment of the enduring quality of a market; IS WRONG.
Yes, price to rent ratio in Detroit, now, at this moment in time, is 5.82, less than Cleveland at 7.57. And what does that math mean? It means price to rent ratio RIGHT NOW is less in Detroit vs Cleveland, FULL-STOP. It does not mean tenant's are better in Detroit, it does not mean one will make more $ in Detroit, it does not mean PMc fee's are more or less anywhere, no bearing in vacancy rates, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY it does not mean rent's will continue where they are and not change in either market.
What if rent's appreciate in Cleveland at 7% annually and 2% in Detroit, is Detroit still "better" because of the price to rent ratio TODAY?
When buying investment real estate most do it for YEARS of hold time and actions. So how much does it matter what is "cheapest" vs rent's to buy now? I think how it's going to perform over the YEARS of operation is what matters MOST, by a landslide.
Could Detroit be "better", sure, but it may NOT be just the same. We don't know from this 1 snippet that only says one can buy a bit better margin at start. Is anyone asking WHY? Is there just collective idiocy in Detroit and people are just handing away properties?
It's good and grand getting a bigger margin day 1 but rarely does that indicate a place has a great forward future. Because there is most often good reasons for a market being the single cheapest properties one can buy, like a declining market. I am not a fan of catching falling knives. You may be happy to sell them because commission check matters more, me, I prefer life-time client's so not for me.
If the best argument a person can put forward for the strength of a market is to only brag it's cheapest, well that tells me a whole lot more about how weak the market is than anything else.
I would much rather have smaller margin yr1 and have strong appreciation, high desirability, strong tenancy base, good vendor pool, STRONG PERFORMANCE indicators going forward, than just say "look, it was cheapest when i bought it".
So it's cheapest, congratulation's, that only means it's cheapest, nothing more. I am investing, my client's are investing, we want RETURNS not cheapest buy. Cheap does not = return's, it ='s cheap, nothing more. If you want to convince of RETURNS, show us something speaking of the next 3-7yrs, something of tenancy base, median incomes going up, stronger healthier tenancy with stable cost of operations.
James, appreciate the bold declaration but the irony of "Your wrong" coupled with the wall of text was too much to bare.
I'm not always perfect with my proofreading either, but when you take the time to bold AND underline something... oof, make sure it's right, you feel me? (at the risk of sounding obvious that's a rhetorical question. No need to respond).
:-) - Rental Property Investor · Brooke Park Drive · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes2y
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Roohil Hamid:
Hi all, I am looking to buy some properties out of state for cash flow. Any city recs? I was looking into Cleveland, I have some properties that caught me eye in the 80-100k range.. I wanted to pick up a few and rent them to section 8. I just wanted to know, how is the rental market? How fast will section 8 tenants apply? Is there demand? Or too saturated?
Check out Toledo. Far superior to Detroit.
Little Detroit can never be superior to Regular Detroit.
Also far superior to Cleveland.
Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.