Section 8 Real Estate Investing

Member since 2023 · 10 posts · 9 votes

Hi all, I am looking to buy some properties out of state for cash flow. Any city recs? I was looking into Cleveland, I have some properties that caught me eye in the 80-100k range.. I wanted to pick up a few and rent them to section 8. I just wanted to know, how is the rental market? How fast will section 8 tenants apply? Is there demand? Or too saturated?

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Joe HammelBusiness Member

Real Estate Agent · Metro Detroit, MI · Member since 2018 · 612 posts · 666 votes

I have a few section 8 in my Metro Detroit Portfolio. Great Price/Rent ratios (technically #1 in the country...just saying lol) For real though, it has a very strong rental demand, low price to entry, plenty of jobs....and did I mention low price to entry? Just can't beat the cash flow.

$100k a year off 16 properties. Started buying 2019. Here is my portfolio for proof....

[email protected]248-422-1685

FIRE Realty Team - Keller Williams5379 Reviews

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Travis Biziorek
Investor · Arroyo Grande, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
2y
Quote from @James Wise:

Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

Quote from @James Hamling:

@Travis Biziorek when rental inventory looks like this:
And for sale inventory looks like this:
I find it a bit surprising anyone would strut around not only saying "it's the best REI market of them all" but to then keep on arguing it saying the selective data of 1 metric "proves" it as best....
From the above, I'd say it looks a whole lot like a falling-knife of a market. That kind of saturation, does not bode well for landlord's.
If you have a way that this above is something profitable and great, please, I am all ear's.

Hey James, I can't tell if this is a serious reply or not given you've zoomed out to the point where you're likely looking at ~100 sq miles of urban living here.

As @James Wise already noted, I'm shocked this thread is still on your mind. Hopefully you didn't lose too much sleep over it all.
I am more than happy to engage in intelligent conversation regarding the Detroit market. But given this reply it doesn't seem you're really interested in that.
If I'm wrong or your attitude changes, please feel free to shoot me a DM and I'd be more than happy to give you some pointers on Detroit.

Lol, so you won't answer to any pointed question on the Detroit market what-so-ever, nothing just "it's the best, Cleveland suck's" and that's it.
I have brought up several VERY valid, data driven counter point's, comment's and questions and each time you respond with some defensive, uber-evasive BS to run-away from the fact's. Look I get it, CA people are often intimidated and terrified of those of us who just speak our mind's and call things how it is, maybe it's all that kale and Tofu, IDK. But hey, how about borrow some big-boy-pant's for a few minutes and attempt a response to the counter point's brought up on your "nirvana" of Detroit.
Or do you got nothing?
From what I see in the data, landlords seem to be scrambling to get out of Detroit, all but giving away properties. And for renting, it's flippin flooded with offerings. I pulled that from Zillow, anyone can go on and search "homes for rent Detroit MI" just as i did and look at the ocean of offering's. I am guessing they'd ask self same question I did, how in the heck can rent's hold when there is a bazillion offerings. Why is there so much available inventory? And at same time ton's of 4-sale inventory, at crazy dirt cheap prices? And how much is repairs? Are repairs way cheaper or will i get f'd on those cheap rent's second there is a furnace or a/c to repair?
If all these questions are too much for you to handle Travis, than i suggest you don't jump on the podium and declare your market is the best or em all if not ready to defend the statement.

Hey James, I'll make one last attempt to satisfy your desire to keep talking about this topic.
I have answers to all of your questions. And again, I'm happy to go over it all with you but writing out responses in a back-and-forth isn't efficient.
It's also impossible to know what you're referencing when you cite "data" regarding landlords "scrambling to get out of Detroit".
If you'd like to show me the data and have a phone call, I'm happy to do that. But if not, let's do everyone a favor here and stop hitting this thread yeah?

Bruhhhhh. Why would ya'll have a phone call? That idea is dumb as hell. Put the points and counter points out there for the audience. That's what we're all here for isn't it?

You're invited too, James. We can do a Zoom, record it, and throw it on your YouTube channel.
I DGAF. I'd love to see (other) James squirm in a live environment where he can't hide behind his keyboard :-)
0 Reply
Travis Biziorek
Investor · Arroyo Grande, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
2y
Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

Quote from @James Hamling:

@Travis Biziorek when rental inventory looks like this:
And for sale inventory looks like this:
I find it a bit surprising anyone would strut around not only saying "it's the best REI market of them all" but to then keep on arguing it saying the selective data of 1 metric "proves" it as best....
From the above, I'd say it looks a whole lot like a falling-knife of a market. That kind of saturation, does not bode well for landlord's.
If you have a way that this above is something profitable and great, please, I am all ear's.

....zoomed out to the point where you're likely looking at ~100 sq miles of urban living here.....

FYI, Detroit in it's entirety is 139 sq miles. This is JUST South Detroit, the area in question. Screens and screens of similar so I just screen shoot'd one. So maybe more accurate to say 20'ish square miles....... IDK, I didn't measure, Zillow doesn't show that measure. But feel free to find the screenshot of Detroit showing differently.

Or would a # work better, like 910?

To put into terms:
Twin Cities MN is 3,000 sq mile, and has 347 homes listed for rent right now.
So yes, 910 unit's listed for rent (3X) in a place about what, 12% the size, yeah seems saturated to me.

James, none of this is apples-to-apples or really accurate.
For starters, what you've depicted is NOT just "south Detroit". Your screenshot definitely encompasses that area but goes all the way up to the northern Detroit boundary (8 Mile).
Then you compare this small section to the Twin Cities. You can't do that, not if you want to make an apples-to-apples comparison. You would need to compare your area to all of Metro Detroit.
Again, it is impossible to have intelligent conversations or debates when you refuse to use logical benchmarks.
347 homes listed for rent in Twin Cities, huh?
0 Reply
James Hamling
Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

Quote from @James Hamling:

@Travis Biziorek when rental inventory looks like this:
And for sale inventory looks like this:
I find it a bit surprising anyone would strut around not only saying "it's the best REI market of them all" but to then keep on arguing it saying the selective data of 1 metric "proves" it as best....
From the above, I'd say it looks a whole lot like a falling-knife of a market. That kind of saturation, does not bode well for landlord's.
If you have a way that this above is something profitable and great, please, I am all ear's.

....zoomed out to the point where you're likely looking at ~100 sq miles of urban living here.....

FYI, Detroit in it's entirety is 139 sq miles. This is JUST South Detroit, the area in question. Screens and screens of similar so I just screen shoot'd one. So maybe more accurate to say 20'ish square miles....... IDK, I didn't measure, Zillow doesn't show that measure. But feel free to find the screenshot of Detroit showing differently.

Or would a # work better, like 910?

To put into terms:
Twin Cities MN is 3,000 sq mile, and has 347 homes listed for rent right now.
So yes, 910 unit's listed for rent (3X) in a place about what, 12% the size, yeah seems saturated to me.

James, none of this is apples-to-apples or really accurate.
For starters, what you've depicted is NOT just "south Detroit". Your screenshot definitely encompasses that area but goes all the way up to the northern Detroit boundary (8 Mile).
Then you compare this small section to the Twin Cities. You can't do that, not if you want to make an apples-to-apples comparison. You would need to compare your area to all of Metro Detroit.
Again, it is impossible to have intelligent conversations or debates when you refuse to use logical benchmarks.
347 homes listed for rent in Twin Cities, huh?

LOOK UP, READ! I have the #'s right there for ALL of Detroit AND ALL of Twin Cities. A 4th grader could comprehend it.
Now your just showing how full of BS you are by PURPOSFULLY skewing #'s taking ALL rentals in Twin Cities INCLUDING MFH apartment's everything, vs JUST houses in Detroit......... I DID do apples too Apples, SFR vs SFR. But you know that already, which is why you went to work to find selective data and crop out as much as possible to hide fact......
Kick rock's kid....
0 Reply
Travis Biziorek
Investor · Arroyo Grande, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
2y
Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

Quote from @James Hamling:

@Travis Biziorek when rental inventory looks like this:
And for sale inventory looks like this:
I find it a bit surprising anyone would strut around not only saying "it's the best REI market of them all" but to then keep on arguing it saying the selective data of 1 metric "proves" it as best....
From the above, I'd say it looks a whole lot like a falling-knife of a market. That kind of saturation, does not bode well for landlord's.
If you have a way that this above is something profitable and great, please, I am all ear's.

....zoomed out to the point where you're likely looking at ~100 sq miles of urban living here.....

FYI, Detroit in it's entirety is 139 sq miles. This is JUST South Detroit, the area in question. Screens and screens of similar so I just screen shoot'd one. So maybe more accurate to say 20'ish square miles....... IDK, I didn't measure, Zillow doesn't show that measure. But feel free to find the screenshot of Detroit showing differently.

Or would a # work better, like 910?

To put into terms:
Twin Cities MN is 3,000 sq mile, and has 347 homes listed for rent right now.
So yes, 910 unit's listed for rent (3X) in a place about what, 12% the size, yeah seems saturated to me.

James, none of this is apples-to-apples or really accurate.
For starters, what you've depicted is NOT just "south Detroit". Your screenshot definitely encompasses that area but goes all the way up to the northern Detroit boundary (8 Mile).
Then you compare this small section to the Twin Cities. You can't do that, not if you want to make an apples-to-apples comparison. You would need to compare your area to all of Metro Detroit.
Again, it is impossible to have intelligent conversations or debates when you refuse to use logical benchmarks.
347 homes listed for rent in Twin Cities, huh?

LOOK UP, READ! I have the #'s right there for ALL of Detroit AND ALL of Twin Cities. A 4th grader could comprehend it.
Now your just showing how full of BS you are by PURPOSFULLY skewing #'s taking ALL rentals in Twin Cities INCLUDING MFH apartment's everything, vs JUST houses in Detroit......... I DID do apples too Apples, SFR vs SFR. But you know that already, which is why you went to work to find selective data and crop out as much as possible to hide fact......
Kick rock's kid....

I had no idea what your filters were.

For SFH's, that does make sense, especially given the area of Detroit you screen shot (it doesn't include downtown which would have more apartments).

Detroit is a VERY single-family housing stock heavy market. So the numbers for SFH lists are going to favor your filters and the point you're trying to make.
Finally, I don't know why it matters. Rental units are rental units and comparing totals allows you to better compare markets that are more SFH heavy compared to ones that don't have a lot of SFH's. For example, there aren't going to be as many SFH's in San Francisco or New York as there would be in a city like Detroit.
Why does that matter? Why are you hyper focusing on SFH's? The obvious answer is because the numbers look dramatic and help support your claim that landlords are fleeing Detroit. That's not at all the case, and hopefully you're starting to grasp that by now.
0 Reply
Account Closed
Rental Property Investor · Brooke Park Drive · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
2y
Doesn't look like the squirming type
0 Reply
James Wise
Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
2y
Now this is what I'm talking about. Let's get spicy boys.
1 Reply
Susan Maneck
Investor · Jackson, MS · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 769 votes
2y
I can tell you a bit about Jackson, MS. Rents relative to investment can't be beat, however don't expect much appreciation. This last jump in prices is the first I've seen since the Great Recession. Prices have now stablized but rents continue to go up, proably because most people can't afford to buy right now. Getting Section 8 tenants is not difficult, but make sure they have a voucher in their hand or you will be waiting a long time. They can be pretty slow with the inspections some times. You can get decent houses in the 60-80K range. Keep in mind that most of the state is in a flood zone, and watch out for foundation problems.
1 Reply
Engelo RumoraBusiness Member
Investor · Toledo, OH · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
2y
You had me at hello 😘🙈
Podcast Guest on Show #89
Oz Realty4.5368 Reviews
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0 Reply
Engelo RumoraBusiness Member
Investor · Toledo, OH · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

Quote from @James Wise:

Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

Quote from @James Hamling:

@Travis Biziorek when rental inventory looks like this:
And for sale inventory looks like this:
I find it a bit surprising anyone would strut around not only saying "it's the best REI market of them all" but to then keep on arguing it saying the selective data of 1 metric "proves" it as best....
From the above, I'd say it looks a whole lot like a falling-knife of a market. That kind of saturation, does not bode well for landlord's.
If you have a way that this above is something profitable and great, please, I am all ear's.

Hey James, I can't tell if this is a serious reply or not given you've zoomed out to the point where you're likely looking at ~100 sq miles of urban living here.

As @James Wise already noted, I'm shocked this thread is still on your mind. Hopefully you didn't lose too much sleep over it all.
I am more than happy to engage in intelligent conversation regarding the Detroit market. But given this reply it doesn't seem you're really interested in that.
If I'm wrong or your attitude changes, please feel free to shoot me a DM and I'd be more than happy to give you some pointers on Detroit.

Lol, so you won't answer to any pointed question on the Detroit market what-so-ever, nothing just "it's the best, Cleveland suck's" and that's it.
I have brought up several VERY valid, data driven counter point's, comment's and questions and each time you respond with some defensive, uber-evasive BS to run-away from the fact's. Look I get it, CA people are often intimidated and terrified of those of us who just speak our mind's and call things how it is, maybe it's all that kale and Tofu, IDK. But hey, how about borrow some big-boy-pant's for a few minutes and attempt a response to the counter point's brought up on your "nirvana" of Detroit.
Or do you got nothing?
From what I see in the data, landlords seem to be scrambling to get out of Detroit, all but giving away properties. And for renting, it's flippin flooded with offerings. I pulled that from Zillow, anyone can go on and search "homes for rent Detroit MI" just as i did and look at the ocean of offering's. I am guessing they'd ask self same question I did, how in the heck can rent's hold when there is a bazillion offerings. Why is there so much available inventory? And at same time ton's of 4-sale inventory, at crazy dirt cheap prices? And how much is repairs? Are repairs way cheaper or will i get f'd on those cheap rent's second there is a furnace or a/c to repair?
If all these questions are too much for you to handle Travis, than i suggest you don't jump on the podium and declare your market is the best or em all if not ready to defend the statement.

Hey James, I'll make one last attempt to satisfy your desire to keep talking about this topic.
I have answers to all of your questions. And again, I'm happy to go over it all with you but writing out responses in a back-and-forth isn't efficient.
It's also impossible to know what you're referencing when you cite "data" regarding landlords "scrambling to get out of Detroit".
If you'd like to show me the data and have a phone call, I'm happy to do that. But if not, let's do everyone a favor here and stop hitting this thread yeah?

Bruhhhhh. Why would ya'll have a phone call? That idea is dumb as hell. Put the points and counter points out there for the audience. That's what we're all here for isn't it?

You're invited too, James. We can do a Zoom, record it, and throw it on your YouTube channel.
I DGAF. I'd love to see (other) James squirm in a live environment where he can't hide behind his keyboard :-)

Can I join? Never had a 5some haha

@James Wise Do you have Only Fans? lol
Podcast Guest on Show #89
Oz Realty4.5368 Reviews
Website View Page
0 Reply
James Hamling
Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

Quote from @James Hamling:

@Travis Biziorek when rental inventory looks like this:
And for sale inventory looks like this:
I find it a bit surprising anyone would strut around not only saying "it's the best REI market of them all" but to then keep on arguing it saying the selective data of 1 metric "proves" it as best....
From the above, I'd say it looks a whole lot like a falling-knife of a market. That kind of saturation, does not bode well for landlord's.
If you have a way that this above is something profitable and great, please, I am all ear's.

....zoomed out to the point where you're likely looking at ~100 sq miles of urban living here.....

FYI, Detroit in it's entirety is 139 sq miles. This is JUST South Detroit, the area in question. Screens and screens of similar so I just screen shoot'd one. So maybe more accurate to say 20'ish square miles....... IDK, I didn't measure, Zillow doesn't show that measure. But feel free to find the screenshot of Detroit showing differently.

Or would a # work better, like 910?

To put into terms:
Twin Cities MN is 3,000 sq mile, and has 347 homes listed for rent right now.
So yes, 910 unit's listed for rent (3X) in a place about what, 12% the size, yeah seems saturated to me.

James, none of this is apples-to-apples or really accurate.
For starters, what you've depicted is NOT just "south Detroit". Your screenshot definitely encompasses that area but goes all the way up to the northern Detroit boundary (8 Mile).
Then you compare this small section to the Twin Cities. You can't do that, not if you want to make an apples-to-apples comparison. You would need to compare your area to all of Metro Detroit.
Again, it is impossible to have intelligent conversations or debates when you refuse to use logical benchmarks.
347 homes listed for rent in Twin Cities, huh?

LOOK UP, READ! I have the #'s right there for ALL of Detroit AND ALL of Twin Cities. A 4th grader could comprehend it.
Now your just showing how full of BS you are by PURPOSFULLY skewing #'s taking ALL rentals in Twin Cities INCLUDING MFH apartment's everything, vs JUST houses in Detroit......... I DID do apples too Apples, SFR vs SFR. But you know that already, which is why you went to work to find selective data and crop out as much as possible to hide fact......
Kick rock's kid....

I had no idea what your filters were.

For SFH's, that does make sense, especially given the area of Detroit you screen shot (it doesn't include downtown which would have more apartments).

Detroit is a VERY single-family housing stock heavy market. So the numbers for SFH lists are going to favor your filters and the point you're trying to make.
Finally, I don't know why it matters. Rental units are rental units and comparing totals allows you to better compare markets that are more SFH heavy compared to ones that don't have a lot of SFH's. For example, there aren't going to be as many SFH's in San Francisco or New York as there would be in a city like Detroit.
Why does that matter? Why are you hyper focusing on SFH's? The obvious answer is because the numbers look dramatic and help support your claim that landlords are fleeing Detroit. That's not at all the case, and hopefully you're starting to grasp that by now.

Your a Charlatan Travis. You know it, and now I have come to know it. Your whopping whole handful of deals ever done yet branding self as some kind of "Guru" lol.
And it all makes sense now, your obsessive compulsion with ignoring facts and data, going to such effort's to twist and manipulate things, selective data etc.. Because your trying to brand yourself a "Guru", get to selling packages and what-not, so you gotta-be-right especially when wrong. Lol.
CHARLATAN....
Fact is Twin Cities is dozens upon DOZENS of cities, with 2 MAJOR cities in it of Minneapolis and St Paul, over 3,000 sq miles in size and millions upon MILLIONS more people than Detroit, YET Detroit has MORE homes for rent, MORE homes for sale, MORE rentals available than a market with 10X more people and 10X more size.
And your declaring that not just a "Great" market but "THE BEST".... CHARLATAN!
Population of Detroit 600k+, Twin Cities 3.7 MILLION+...... Detroit, MORE listed rentals available than Twin Cities. More properties for sale than Twin Cities.
Detroit; properties selling for less, renting for less, getting lower and lower offers, more and more discounts on and on and on and on.
Answer something "Mr Newsom", stop dogging every dang question thrown to you only to reply with some twisted side BS thinking nobody see's you running away from the FACTS and pointed questions like a terrified CHARLATAN you are.
Your gonna brag up Detroit as #1 best market, promote it trying to build self into a "Guru", ANSWER, how do you explain these FACTS of the #'s?
Riddle us how SATURATED supply equal's great market? ANSWER THE QUESTION. Stop dodging "Newsom".......
0 Reply
Travis Biziorek
Investor · Arroyo Grande, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
2y
Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

Quote from @James Hamling:

@Travis Biziorek when rental inventory looks like this:
And for sale inventory looks like this:
I find it a bit surprising anyone would strut around not only saying "it's the best REI market of them all" but to then keep on arguing it saying the selective data of 1 metric "proves" it as best....
From the above, I'd say it looks a whole lot like a falling-knife of a market. That kind of saturation, does not bode well for landlord's.
If you have a way that this above is something profitable and great, please, I am all ear's.

....zoomed out to the point where you're likely looking at ~100 sq miles of urban living here.....

FYI, Detroit in it's entirety is 139 sq miles. This is JUST South Detroit, the area in question. Screens and screens of similar so I just screen shoot'd one. So maybe more accurate to say 20'ish square miles....... IDK, I didn't measure, Zillow doesn't show that measure. But feel free to find the screenshot of Detroit showing differently.

Or would a # work better, like 910?

To put into terms:
Twin Cities MN is 3,000 sq mile, and has 347 homes listed for rent right now.
So yes, 910 unit's listed for rent (3X) in a place about what, 12% the size, yeah seems saturated to me.

James, none of this is apples-to-apples or really accurate.
For starters, what you've depicted is NOT just "south Detroit". Your screenshot definitely encompasses that area but goes all the way up to the northern Detroit boundary (8 Mile).
Then you compare this small section to the Twin Cities. You can't do that, not if you want to make an apples-to-apples comparison. You would need to compare your area to all of Metro Detroit.
Again, it is impossible to have intelligent conversations or debates when you refuse to use logical benchmarks.
347 homes listed for rent in Twin Cities, huh?

LOOK UP, READ! I have the #'s right there for ALL of Detroit AND ALL of Twin Cities. A 4th grader could comprehend it.
Now your just showing how full of BS you are by PURPOSFULLY skewing #'s taking ALL rentals in Twin Cities INCLUDING MFH apartment's everything, vs JUST houses in Detroit......... I DID do apples too Apples, SFR vs SFR. But you know that already, which is why you went to work to find selective data and crop out as much as possible to hide fact......
Kick rock's kid....

I had no idea what your filters were.

For SFH's, that does make sense, especially given the area of Detroit you screen shot (it doesn't include downtown which would have more apartments).

Detroit is a VERY single-family housing stock heavy market. So the numbers for SFH lists are going to favor your filters and the point you're trying to make.
Finally, I don't know why it matters. Rental units are rental units and comparing totals allows you to better compare markets that are more SFH heavy compared to ones that don't have a lot of SFH's. For example, there aren't going to be as many SFH's in San Francisco or New York as there would be in a city like Detroit.
Why does that matter? Why are you hyper focusing on SFH's? The obvious answer is because the numbers look dramatic and help support your claim that landlords are fleeing Detroit. That's not at all the case, and hopefully you're starting to grasp that by now.

Your a Charlatan Travis. You know it, and now I have come to know it. Your whopping whole handful of deals ever done yet branding self as some kind of "Guru" lol.
And it all makes sense now, your obsessive compulsion with ignoring facts and data, going to such effort's to twist and manipulate things, selective data etc.. Because your trying to brand yourself a "Guru", get to selling packages and what-not, so you gotta-be-right especially when wrong. Lol.
CHARLATAN....
Fact is Twin Cities is dozens upon DOZENS of cities, with 2 MAJOR cities in it of Minneapolis and St Paul, over 3,000 sq miles in size and millions upon MILLIONS more people than Detroit, YET Detroit has MORE homes for rent, MORE homes for sale, MORE rentals available than a market with 10X more people and 10X more size.
And your declaring that not just a "Great" market but "THE BEST".... CHARLATAN!
Population of Detroit 600k+, Twin Cities 3.7 MILLION+...... Detroit, MORE listed rentals available than Twin Cities. More properties for sale than Twin Cities.
Detroit; properties selling for less, renting for less, getting lower and lower offers, more and more discounts on and on and on and on.
Answer something "Mr Newsom", stop dogging every dang question thrown to you only to reply with some twisted side BS thinking nobody see's you running away from the FACTS and pointed questions like a terrified CHARLATAN you are.
Your gonna brag up Detroit as #1 best market, promote it trying to build self into a "Guru", ANSWER, how do you explain these FACTS of the #'s?
Riddle us how SATURATED supply equal's great market? ANSWER THE QUESTION. Stop dodging "Newsom".......
Hi again, James. Always a pleasure!

Your replies are becoming increasingly unhinged and I'm not sure why. I know the holidays can be a tough time of year for folks, especially perhaps RE agents given the year we've had with lower transaction volume.

I'm going to assume there's also a good chance you're going through some personal stuff that would explain the behavior. At least that's what I'll tell myself so I can do my best to take your insults and name calling in stride.

Let's see if I can break this down as simply as possible for you and we can end the back-and-forth finally.

I have done about 50 transactions in Detroit this year. I'd have to go back and count to know the exact number, but it's around there.

I'm sure you do many more than this so it might feel like a "handful". But for me it's significant and fun.

I don't know much about the Twin Cities. I've been through Minneapolis as a kid but that's the extent of my knowledge. I visited the Mall of America, too? Is that still a thing?

Regardless, I do know that it doesn't make sense to compare a large Metro area like the Twin Cities to JUST Detroit. You'd want to compare directly to Metro Detroit which is nearly 4,000 sq miles and 4.36 million people.

Yes, the population of Detroit is ~630,000 people and (according to Zillow) there are 1,756 rental units available today.

Twin Cities has 2,178 rental units available today (again, going off Zillow).

I am not differentiating between SFH's or apartments. I don't see why we would do that considering cities can have grossly different makeups of rental units. As I stated previously, Detroit is VERY much a SFH heavy market. So comparing the number of SFH's in one market to the other makes little sense.

Said another way, there are probably a lot more apartments/condos/etc. available for rent in the Twin Cities as compared to Detroit. Does that mean landlords are fleeing the Twin Cities, prices are collapsing, and rents are falling?

That would not be my argument but that's essentially what you're saying by looking at SFH's and coming to that conclusion. I hope you now see how silly that is.

The best argument here is to look at total available rental units compared to population. Then come up with a ratio and compare it that way.

That is, by far, the best metric to support your argument.

That said, while Detroit will have a higher ratio of available rental units to population... I'm not sure exactly what that proves.

According to you it means landlords are fleeing, prices are falling, and rents declining.

That seems like an awfully big leap in logic and I'd prefer to actually look at data that directly supports those arguments rather than a simple rental units to population metric.

So what could our rentals to population tell us? It might mean there's simply less homeownership in Detroit than a city with a lower ratio. But again, we could just look that number up. Honestly, I don't see the value in the metric you're driving at.

Beyond that, I'd still point to the fact that we should be talking about the Twin Cities vs Detroit Metro (not just Detroit the city). That would give us a far better apples-to-apples comparison.

Detroit the city is a unique beast. There's no denying it. The fact you're having such a difficult time grasping the landscape there (as a trained real estate professional, nonetheless!) speaks to how difficult it is to analyze and understand.

But hey, I'm glad you're opening up to learning about it. There's a lot going on in the Midwest and Detroit is a big part of it.

0 Reply
James Hamling
Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

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@Travis Biziorek when rental inventory looks like this:
And for sale inventory looks like this:
I find it a bit surprising anyone would strut around not only saying "it's the best REI market of them all" but to then keep on arguing it saying the selective data of 1 metric "proves" it as best....
From the above, I'd say it looks a whole lot like a falling-knife of a market. That kind of saturation, does not bode well for landlord's.
If you have a way that this above is something profitable and great, please, I am all ear's.

....zoomed out to the point where you're likely looking at ~100 sq miles of urban living here.....

FYI, Detroit in it's entirety is 139 sq miles. This is JUST South Detroit, the area in question. Screens and screens of similar so I just screen shoot'd one. So maybe more accurate to say 20'ish square miles....... IDK, I didn't measure, Zillow doesn't show that measure. But feel free to find the screenshot of Detroit showing differently.

Or would a # work better, like 910?

To put into terms:
Twin Cities MN is 3,000 sq mile, and has 347 homes listed for rent right now.
So yes, 910 unit's listed for rent (3X) in a place about what, 12% the size, yeah seems saturated to me.

James, none of this is apples-to-apples or really accurate.
For starters, what you've depicted is NOT just "south Detroit". Your screenshot definitely encompasses that area but goes all the way up to the northern Detroit boundary (8 Mile).
Then you compare this small section to the Twin Cities. You can't do that, not if you want to make an apples-to-apples comparison. You would need to compare your area to all of Metro Detroit.
Again, it is impossible to have intelligent conversations or debates when you refuse to use logical benchmarks.
347 homes listed for rent in Twin Cities, huh?

LOOK UP, READ! I have the #'s right there for ALL of Detroit AND ALL of Twin Cities. A 4th grader could comprehend it.
Now your just showing how full of BS you are by PURPOSFULLY skewing #'s taking ALL rentals in Twin Cities INCLUDING MFH apartment's everything, vs JUST houses in Detroit......... I DID do apples too Apples, SFR vs SFR. But you know that already, which is why you went to work to find selective data and crop out as much as possible to hide fact......
Kick rock's kid....

I had no idea what your filters were.

For SFH's, that does make sense, especially given the area of Detroit you screen shot (it doesn't include downtown which would have more apartments).

Detroit is a VERY single-family housing stock heavy market. So the numbers for SFH lists are going to favor your filters and the point you're trying to make.
Finally, I don't know why it matters. Rental units are rental units and comparing totals allows you to better compare markets that are more SFH heavy compared to ones that don't have a lot of SFH's. For example, there aren't going to be as many SFH's in San Francisco or New York as there would be in a city like Detroit.
Why does that matter? Why are you hyper focusing on SFH's? The obvious answer is because the numbers look dramatic and help support your claim that landlords are fleeing Detroit. That's not at all the case, and hopefully you're starting to grasp that by now.

Your a Charlatan Travis. You know it, and now I have come to know it. Your whopping whole handful of deals ever done yet branding self as some kind of "Guru" lol.
And it all makes sense now, your obsessive compulsion with ignoring facts and data, going to such effort's to twist and manipulate things, selective data etc.. Because your trying to brand yourself a "Guru", get to selling packages and what-not, so you gotta-be-right especially when wrong. Lol.
CHARLATAN....
Fact is Twin Cities is dozens upon DOZENS of cities, with 2 MAJOR cities in it of Minneapolis and St Paul, over 3,000 sq miles in size and millions upon MILLIONS more people than Detroit, YET Detroit has MORE homes for rent, MORE homes for sale, MORE rentals available than a market with 10X more people and 10X more size.
And your declaring that not just a "Great" market but "THE BEST".... CHARLATAN!
Population of Detroit 600k+, Twin Cities 3.7 MILLION+...... Detroit, MORE listed rentals available than Twin Cities. More properties for sale than Twin Cities.
Detroit; properties selling for less, renting for less, getting lower and lower offers, more and more discounts on and on and on and on.
Answer something "Mr Newsom", stop dogging every dang question thrown to you only to reply with some twisted side BS thinking nobody see's you running away from the FACTS and pointed questions like a terrified CHARLATAN you are.
Your gonna brag up Detroit as #1 best market, promote it trying to build self into a "Guru", ANSWER, how do you explain these FACTS of the #'s?
Riddle us how SATURATED supply equal's great market? ANSWER THE QUESTION. Stop dodging "Newsom".......
Hi again, James. Always a pleasure!

Your replies are becoming increasingly unhinged and I'm not sure why. I know the holidays can be a tough time of year for folks, especially perhaps RE agents given the year we've had with lower transaction volume.

I'm going to assume there's also a good chance you're going through some personal stuff that would explain the behavior. At least that's what I'll tell myself so I can do my best to take your insults and name calling in stride.

Let's see if I can break this down as simply as possible for you and we can end the back-and-forth finally.

I have done about 50 transactions in Detroit this year. I'd have to go back and count to know the exact number, but it's around there.

I'm sure you do many more than this so it might feel like a "handful". But for me it's significant and fun.

I don't know much about the Twin Cities. I've been through Minneapolis as a kid but that's the extent of my knowledge. I visited the Mall of America, too? Is that still a thing?

Regardless, I do know that it doesn't make sense to compare a large Metro area like the Twin Cities to JUST Detroit. You'd want to compare directly to Metro Detroit which is nearly 4,000 sq miles and 4.36 million people.

Yes, the population of Detroit is ~630,000 people and (according to Zillow) there are 1,756 rental units available today.

Twin Cities has 2,178 rental units available today (again, going off Zillow).

I am not differentiating between SFH's or apartments. I don't see why we would do that considering cities can have grossly different makeups of rental units. As I stated previously, Detroit is VERY much a SFH heavy market. So comparing the number of SFH's in one market to the other makes little sense.

Said another way, there are probably a lot more apartments/condos/etc. available for rent in the Twin Cities as compared to Detroit. Does that mean landlords are fleeing the Twin Cities, prices are collapsing, and rents are falling?

That would not be my argument but that's essentially what you're saying by looking at SFH's and coming to that conclusion. I hope you now see how silly that is.

The best argument here is to look at total available rental units compared to population. Then come up with a ratio and compare it that way.

That is, by far, the best metric to support your argument.

That said, while Detroit will have a higher ratio of available rental units to population... I'm not sure exactly what that proves.

According to you it means landlords are fleeing, prices are falling, and rents declining.

That seems like an awfully big leap in logic and I'd prefer to actually look at data that directly supports those arguments rather than a simple rental units to population metric.

So what could our rentals to population tell us? It might mean there's simply less homeownership in Detroit than a city with a lower ratio. But again, we could just look that number up. Honestly, I don't see the value in the metric you're driving at.

Beyond that, I'd still point to the fact that we should be talking about the Twin Cities vs Detroit Metro (not just Detroit the city). That would give us a far better apples-to-apples comparison.

Detroit the city is a unique beast. There's no denying it. The fact you're having such a difficult time grasping the landscape there (as a trained real estate professional, nonetheless!) speaks to how difficult it is to analyze and understand.

But hey, I'm glad you're opening up to learning about it. There's a lot going on in the Midwest and Detroit is a big part of it.

I couldn't even stomach to get through the entirety of the ranting of lies, distortion and BS.

Last night I was watching the Desantis Newsom debate, and as newsome for the umpteenth time answered simple questions with yapping on completely different, NOT answering in the remotest sense, I felt "huh, this seems familiar". And then it was when they put up a GIANT chart clearly saying FL schools ranked #1, CA schools ranked #20, and the simplest of simplest questions was asked of MR CA Newsom to explain why this is, he went on in rediculous BS than saying how CA schools are inf act #1....... as if all eyes are broken, nope #20 is #1...... And that's when it clicked, that's you Travis. It's EXACTLY how you act and respond.

I CLEARLY put on here the ever so simple to google fact that Detroit is 146 sq miles but here ya are saying it's now over 3,000.....

I made a CLEAR distinction how JUST the city of Detroit being 1/10th of the ENTIRE Twin Cities market, Detroit had MORE sale and rental listings than a market 10X it's size. THAT THE POINT.

But lie, distort, twist...... Never answering, never-ever, deflect, distort, twist......

Would you rather use Dallas TX who has 927 homes for rent, and Dallas is how many times the size of Detroit?

Ok, let's try Miami FL....

Denver Colorado

Travis I am trying, I am TRYING man to find ANY city/market in the US anywhere close to as saturated with available unit inventory as Detroit but every-dang-time it come sup Detroit a FLAMING hot-mess vs anywhere else I look. AH-HA, that's it, I gotta go to the hot-mess capital, CA! We gotta have a winner there right, SHOW ME SAN DIEGO CA........

WHAT The....! San Diego by 11.........

Detroit MI with WAYYYYyyy more inventory available by every realistic metric.......

Travis, short of BP adding a Crayola feature I can't make it any more clear. I have asked you to explain how this FACT of the market standing justifies stating it as THE #1 BEST market to invest in, in the US today. And repeatedly you respond in ridiculous, deflecting, total BS, lies, distortions, twists etc.. JUST ANSWER THE DAMN QUESTION.

How does Detroit with OBVIOUSLY flooded inventory on BOTH sale and rental side equate to a good market to invest in more or less, your claim, the #1 best? For the 3rd/4th time, what the data says looks like a FALLING KNIFE of a market.
0 Reply
James Hamling
Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

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@Travis Biziorek

I have done about 50 transactions in Detroit this year. I'd have to go back and count to know the exact number, but it's around there.

I am confused because 3 days ago you said the below, which is NOT "50 transactions in Detroit this year":

"I ended up shifting my focus to Detroit proper where the numbers looked better on paper. I proceeded with caution, initially, to make sure reality would match with my assumptions. Flash forward and I have 12-doors in Detroit"....

Is it 12, or 50 this year?
0 Reply
Travis Biziorek
Investor · Arroyo Grande, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
2y
Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

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Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

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@Travis Biziorek

I have done about 50 transactions in Detroit this year. I'd have to go back and count to know the exact number, but it's around there.

I am confused because 3 days ago you said the below, which is NOT "50 transactions in Detroit this year":

"I ended up shifting my focus to Detroit proper where the numbers looked better on paper. I proceeded with caution, initially, to make sure reality would match with my assumptions. Flash forward and I have 12-doors in Detroit"....

Is it 12, or 50 this year?
Understood. Happy to clarify.

I own 12-doors myself personally.

I have done 50 off-market transactions this year.
0 Reply
James Hamling
Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Travis Biziorek:

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@Travis Biziorek

Yes, the population of Detroit is ~630,000 people and (according to Zillow) there are 1,756 rental units available today.

The best argument here is to look at total available rental units compared to population. Then come up with a ratio and compare it that way.

That said, while Detroit will have a higher ratio of available rental units to population... I'm not sure exactly what that proves.

I don't know if you really don't comprehend the math and analysis to things, or are just pressing on distorting things to keep to the narrative of Detroit as a "great" market because it's your paycheck and need to hold that narrative for income sake.

I am leaning to the later because, Occam's Razor.

To explain for all, when working to gauge a "cheap" market one need's to ask WHY is it cheap. Is it an opportunity, or a problem?

In Detroit's case we see 3 element's present together, which I like to call "The Trinity Of LOSSES". We have a market saturated with rental unit's, 52% of the SFH's are rental unit's. That's one of the highest %'s in the country.
Next, we have a MASSIVE inventory of available rental unit's. MASSIVE. It's a multiplier value of almost any other market out there, or in % speak that is to say 200%, 300%+ MORE available rental inventory for tenant's vs other markets. I assume people have a basic understanding of supply-demand curve and economics.
And third, we have a MASSIVE supply of inventory, in general, available for sale. So much inventory in fact that it's trading at MASSIVE discount vs replacement/recreation cost. Again, supply-demand curve.

Put that together what do we get?
It says, the market is already so saturated with rental offerings, that it's already over saturated, with a TON sitting begging for a tenant. And $ follow's that path downward from supply-demand economics.
Next, great a person can buy a place for cheap. Ok, then what? There is a bazzilion other rental's available so what do you do, add yet another to the heap? Adding MORE downward pressure on market value pricing AND increasing offering demand to remain competitive.

See, supply demand, when supply so heavily saturates demand, not only put's pressure DOWN on prices, but it ALSO put's pressure UP on offering. You have to be nicer, newer, fancier. All that cost's.
And what's labor pricing look like? Is labor pricing also at 50%+ discount vs national average.... nope, it's not. So, cost of labor is disproportionately HIGHER vs gross revenue potentials. Meaning cost's of operations are disproportionately HIGHER in Detroit marketing meaning LESS of the gross land's as net.

And with rental inventory so over saturated, the worst part is 4-sale inventory is holding flooded out also meaning MORE potential rental inventory making it all the worse for landlord's going forward.

Same time local government has infrastructure 2X too much, making for disproportionate operational cost's to get passed too, you, the landlord. More added pressure on converting gross to net operationally vs other market "medians".

When pointing out how awash in inventory Detroit is, I would think finding it's inventory matches markets 10X it's size would be an item to put things into context of the level of severity of such. We are not talking a 10% deviation, we are talking a MULTIPLIER deviation.

Detroit looks to be a Falling-Knife of a market and it makes sense. Detroit was built as a far bigger, far wealthier market who lost their entire economic foundation, a very BIG one, one not readily replaceable. So it makes sense that it will be a matter of DECADES to sort though it all.

The housing was built for a different economy, a different population, one a multiplier of what it is today.

best thing Detroit could do is start buying up every other home and keep demolishing 100 per month until it reaches something closer to national median. But it won't nobody would, because of the toxic nature those politic's hold of increasing cost to lower class. Reguardless of how unviable it is to investors.

It's a free country, feel free to invest in Detroit, work to try to eeek out a decent return in a flat/declining market of such saturation. Myself, I don't like slumlording. I like providing homes I would put my kid's into without a 2nd thought. That's me.
If your ok with making profit via deferring maintenance, hey, you-do-you.

But let's not fool ourselves, it's FAR far cry from "The best market in U.S.". Low to no appreciation until the massive inventory disparity can be sorted. At current pace, that looks to be resolved by about 2070/2080. Yes, literal #. For me, way too far out to make it a play today.

0 Reply
James Wise
Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
2y
0 Reply
Account Closed
Rental Property Investor · Brooke Park Drive · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
2y
@Travis Biziorek @James Hamling Are we all in agreement Detroit is better than Cleveland though?
0 Reply
Elizabeth Galarza
Real Estate Agent · Katy, TX · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 5 votes
2y
Quote from @Bob S.:

James I cant buy everywhere. I have teams in all of Cleveland and Jackson Mississippi. So cant do it all.
Could you please tell me about the housing authority offices in both cities. I heard that the office in Cleveland is understaffed and can take up to 90 days to do a property inspection. I'd seen good potential for cash flowing properties in Jackson. Thanks in advance for your answer.

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Bob S.
Real Estate Consultant · Cleveland · Member since 2020 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Elizabeth Galarza:

Quote from @Bob S.:

James I cant buy everywhere. I have teams in all of Cleveland and Jackson Mississippi. So cant do it all.
Could you please tell me about the housing authority offices in both cities. I heard that the office in Cleveland is understaffed and can take up to 90 days to do a property inspection. I'd seen good potential for cash flowing properties in Jackson. Thanks in advance for your answer.

Hi it does not take 90 days, we are seeing start to finish about 30 45 days. There are other programs I like bette, two weeks and they pay more. Do not even think about buying props in Cleveland on your own, then renting out to CMHA , it will not end well
All the best
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