Section 8 Real Estate Investing
Member since 2023 · 10 posts · 9 votes
Section 8 Real Estate Investing
Most Popular Reply
Joe HammelBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Metro Detroit, MI · Member since 2018 · 612 posts · 666 votesI have a few section 8 in my Metro Detroit Portfolio. Great Price/Rent ratios (technically #1 in the country...just saying lol) For real though, it has a very strong rental demand, low price to entry, plenty of jobs....and did I mention low price to entry? Just can't beat the cash flow.
$100k a year off 16 properties. Started buying 2019. Here is my portfolio for proof....
FIRE Realty Team - Keller Williams5379 Reviews
69 Replies
- Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes2y
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
lol, takes a mighty big pair of stones to base your argument off of data provided by Zillow.
Yes, James, it seems folks like to hyper focus on the fact I quoted Zillow data as if that destroys the underlying point.
The reality is the price-to-rent ratio in Detroit is far more favorable than it is in Cleveland.
If you believe that to be an inaccurate statement I would genuinely like to see your public data source because every single one I've looked at supports that claim.
At the end of the day, what really matters is that everyone reading this understands the following.
Travis is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Detroit. Bob is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Cleveland. Because of this Travis is going to present the data in a way that makes Detroit look better. Bob is going to do the same for Cleveland.
Myself, I make money working with investors in multiple markets and I can tell you all from an unbiased standpoint that after doing over $200 Million in transactions, most all of these midwestern markets are the same.
Any market difference is going to be splitting hairs when it comes to the bottom line of your portfolio. If you are on BP you are likely an investor who is gonna buy like 1-10 houses. Those 1-10 houses being in Detroit or Cleveland or Akron or Baltimore or Indy or KC or Toledo or wherever doesn't really matter. What matters is what you buy in that market and how you manage it.James, a lot of this is definitely true.
I'm not going to nitpick everything but one big correction here is I am not "presenting" the data in one particular way.
I am literally quoting publicly available data. I have not manipulated it in any way and if someone takes issue with my source I'd love to see a different publicly available source that changes the underlying point.
C'mon now Travis, you're a smart guy. If you really wanted to, I am sure you can take all of that publicly available data and make a pitch for why Detroit is better than Cleveland, just like Bob could take that same data and make his pitch for why Cleveland is better than Detroit.
Sure, anyone could cherry pick data and spin a story for why something is better than something else.
But, again, that's not what we're doing here.
I am purely looking at the price-to-rent ratio. This is publicly available data that you can pull from multiple sources. One could try and manipulate it but the data sources are easily verifiable.
And again, price-to-rent ratio grossly favors Detroit over Cleveland. If it was the other way around, there is no way I could argue it. And that's why literally nobody has piped up to say that I'm wrong on that account.
The data doesn't support it so you simply can't claim Cleveland is better than Detroit from a price-to-rent ratio. It's quantitative. And it's really that easy.
Ok, I'll say it; Your wrong.
Moreover, anyone using 1 single metric pinned for a specific point in time to make an assessment of the enduring quality of a market; IS WRONG.
Yes, price to rent ratio in Detroit, now, at this moment in time, is 5.82, less than Cleveland at 7.57. And what does that math mean? It means price to rent ratio RIGHT NOW is less in Detroit vs Cleveland, FULL-STOP. It does not mean tenant's are better in Detroit, it does not mean one will make more $ in Detroit, it does not mean PMc fee's are more or less anywhere, no bearing in vacancy rates, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY it does not mean rent's will continue where they are and not change in either market.
What if rent's appreciate in Cleveland at 7% annually and 2% in Detroit, is Detroit still "better" because of the price to rent ratio TODAY?
When buying investment real estate most do it for YEARS of hold time and actions. So how much does it matter what is "cheapest" vs rent's to buy now? I think how it's going to perform over the YEARS of operation is what matters MOST, by a landslide.
Could Detroit be "better", sure, but it may NOT be just the same. We don't know from this 1 snippet that only says one can buy a bit better margin at start. Is anyone asking WHY? Is there just collective idiocy in Detroit and people are just handing away properties?
It's good and grand getting a bigger margin day 1 but rarely does that indicate a place has a great forward future. Because there is most often good reasons for a market being the single cheapest properties one can buy, like a declining market. I am not a fan of catching falling knives. You may be happy to sell them because commission check matters more, me, I prefer life-time client's so not for me.
If the best argument a person can put forward for the strength of a market is to only brag it's cheapest, well that tells me a whole lot more about how weak the market is than anything else.
I would much rather have smaller margin yr1 and have strong appreciation, high desirability, strong tenancy base, good vendor pool, STRONG PERFORMANCE indicators going forward, than just say "look, it was cheapest when i bought it".
So it's cheapest, congratulation's, that only means it's cheapest, nothing more. I am investing, my client's are investing, we want RETURNS not cheapest buy. Cheap does not = return's, it ='s cheap, nothing more. If you want to convince of RETURNS, show us something speaking of the next 3-7yrs, something of tenancy base, median incomes going up, stronger healthier tenancy with stable cost of operations.
James, appreciate the bold declaration but the irony of "Your wrong" coupled with the wall of text was too much to bare.
I'm not always perfect with my proofreading either, but when you take the time to bold AND underline something... oof, make sure it's right, you feel me? (at the risk of sounding obvious that's a rhetorical question. No need to respond).
:-)So nothing.... you got nothing in response, just upset. That's all I get from this response.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes2y
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Roohil Hamid:
Hi all, I am looking to buy some properties out of state for cash flow. Any city recs? I was looking into Cleveland, I have some properties that caught me eye in the 80-100k range.. I wanted to pick up a few and rent them to section 8. I just wanted to know, how is the rental market? How fast will section 8 tenants apply? Is there demand? Or too saturated?
Check out Toledo. Far superior to Detroit.
Little Detroit can never be superior to Regular Detroit.
Also far superior to Cleveland.
My dad could beat up your dad.
- Rental Property Investor · Brooke Park Drive · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes2yFairfax is a good street for section 8 I can only do 50k given the risk. @Roohil Hamid offer @James Wise 60k.
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Roohil Hamid:
Hi all, I am looking to buy some properties out of state for cash flow. Any city recs? I was looking into Cleveland, I have some properties that caught me eye in the 80-100k range.. I wanted to pick up a few and rent them to section 8. I just wanted to know, how is the rental market? How fast will section 8 tenants apply? Is there demand? Or too saturated?
Check out Toledo. Far superior to Detroit.
Little Detroit can never be superior to Regular Detroit.
Also far superior to Cleveland.
My dad could beat up your dad.
- 2yChristopher Jason LloydBusiness MemberReal Estate Broker · Newport News, VA · Member since 2020 · 95 posts · 83 votes
Demand is crazy high in my market. I would assume the same for most markets. Portsmouth VA has been a hotspot for us.
Axiom Property Group4.934 Reviews - Real Estate Consultant · Cleveland · Member since 2020 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes2y
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
lol, takes a mighty big pair of stones to base your argument off of data provided by Zillow.
Yes, James, it seems folks like to hyper focus on the fact I quoted Zillow data as if that destroys the underlying point.
The reality is the price-to-rent ratio in Detroit is far more favorable than it is in Cleveland.
If you believe that to be an inaccurate statement I would genuinely like to see your public data source because every single one I've looked at supports that claim.
At the end of the day, what really matters is that everyone reading this understands the following.
Travis is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Detroit. Bob is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Cleveland. Because of this Travis is going to present the data in a way that makes Detroit look better. Bob is going to do the same for Cleveland.
Myself, I make money working with investors in multiple markets and I can tell you all from an unbiased standpoint that after doing over $200 Million in transactions, most all of these midwestern markets are the same.
Any market difference is going to be splitting hairs when it comes to the bottom line of your portfolio. If you are on BP you are likely an investor who is gonna buy like 1-10 houses. Those 1-10 houses being in Detroit or Cleveland or Akron or Baltimore or Indy or KC or Toledo or wherever doesn't really matter. What matters is what you buy in that market and how you manage it.James, a lot of this is definitely true.
I'm not going to nitpick everything but one big correction here is I am not "presenting" the data in one particular way.
I am literally quoting publicly available data. I have not manipulated it in any way and if someone takes issue with my source I'd love to see a different publicly available source that changes the underlying point.
C'mon now Travis, you're a smart guy. If you really wanted to, I am sure you could take all of that publicly available data and make a pitch for why Cleveland is better than Detroit. But you are not going to, because that wouldn't get you paid. Same reason Bob won't make a pitch for Detroit even though he probably could if he was incentivized to do so.
What I would like to know, what is the value of a property purchased for say 75k in Detroit with 1200 in rent.
- Investor · Arroyo Grande, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2y
Quote from @Bob S.:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
lol, takes a mighty big pair of stones to base your argument off of data provided by Zillow.
Yes, James, it seems folks like to hyper focus on the fact I quoted Zillow data as if that destroys the underlying point.
The reality is the price-to-rent ratio in Detroit is far more favorable than it is in Cleveland.
If you believe that to be an inaccurate statement I would genuinely like to see your public data source because every single one I've looked at supports that claim.
At the end of the day, what really matters is that everyone reading this understands the following.
Travis is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Detroit. Bob is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Cleveland. Because of this Travis is going to present the data in a way that makes Detroit look better. Bob is going to do the same for Cleveland.
Myself, I make money working with investors in multiple markets and I can tell you all from an unbiased standpoint that after doing over $200 Million in transactions, most all of these midwestern markets are the same.
Any market difference is going to be splitting hairs when it comes to the bottom line of your portfolio. If you are on BP you are likely an investor who is gonna buy like 1-10 houses. Those 1-10 houses being in Detroit or Cleveland or Akron or Baltimore or Indy or KC or Toledo or wherever doesn't really matter. What matters is what you buy in that market and how you manage it.James, a lot of this is definitely true.
I'm not going to nitpick everything but one big correction here is I am not "presenting" the data in one particular way.
I am literally quoting publicly available data. I have not manipulated it in any way and if someone takes issue with my source I'd love to see a different publicly available source that changes the underlying point.
C'mon now Travis, you're a smart guy. If you really wanted to, I am sure you could take all of that publicly available data and make a pitch for why Cleveland is better than Detroit. But you are not going to, because that wouldn't get you paid. Same reason Bob won't make a pitch for Detroit even though he probably could if he was incentivized to do so.
What I would like to know, what is the value of a property purchased for say 75k in Detroit with 1200 in rent.
This thread is getting a bit long in the tooth. If you want to dig into specifics of Detroit and talk shop I'm happy to share my experience via DM or whatever else.
- Real Estate Consultant · Cleveland · Member since 2020 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes2y
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @Bob S.:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
lol, takes a mighty big pair of stones to base your argument off of data provided by Zillow.
Yes, James, it seems folks like to hyper focus on the fact I quoted Zillow data as if that destroys the underlying point.
The reality is the price-to-rent ratio in Detroit is far more favorable than it is in Cleveland.
If you believe that to be an inaccurate statement I would genuinely like to see your public data source because every single one I've looked at supports that claim.
At the end of the day, what really matters is that everyone reading this understands the following.
Travis is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Detroit. Bob is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Cleveland. Because of this Travis is going to present the data in a way that makes Detroit look better. Bob is going to do the same for Cleveland.
Myself, I make money working with investors in multiple markets and I can tell you all from an unbiased standpoint that after doing over $200 Million in transactions, most all of these midwestern markets are the same.
Any market difference is going to be splitting hairs when it comes to the bottom line of your portfolio. If you are on BP you are likely an investor who is gonna buy like 1-10 houses. Those 1-10 houses being in Detroit or Cleveland or Akron or Baltimore or Indy or KC or Toledo or wherever doesn't really matter. What matters is what you buy in that market and how you manage it.James, a lot of this is definitely true.
I'm not going to nitpick everything but one big correction here is I am not "presenting" the data in one particular way.
I am literally quoting publicly available data. I have not manipulated it in any way and if someone takes issue with my source I'd love to see a different publicly available source that changes the underlying point.
C'mon now Travis, you're a smart guy. If you really wanted to, I am sure you could take all of that publicly available data and make a pitch for why Cleveland is better than Detroit. But you are not going to, because that wouldn't get you paid. Same reason Bob won't make a pitch for Detroit even though he probably could if he was incentivized to do so.
What I would like to know, what is the value of a property purchased for say 75k in Detroit with 1200 in rent.
This thread is getting a bit long in the tooth. If you want to dig into specifics of Detroit and talk shop I'm happy to share my experience via DM or whatever else.
No thanks, I wish you all the best there, keep crushing it,
Just do not spread BS about Cleveland. Those that bought in the Cleveland markets, 6 7 8 years ago, have tripled, quadrupled or more, on top of the 30% net caps. I can tell horror stories about Detroit but would never "sling mud " in an open forum.
Good luck
- Investor · Arroyo Grande, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2yIt blows my mind folks are taking so much offense to what I said about Cleveland.
Quote from @Bob S.:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @Bob S.:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
lol, takes a mighty big pair of stones to base your argument off of data provided by Zillow.
Yes, James, it seems folks like to hyper focus on the fact I quoted Zillow data as if that destroys the underlying point.
The reality is the price-to-rent ratio in Detroit is far more favorable than it is in Cleveland.
If you believe that to be an inaccurate statement I would genuinely like to see your public data source because every single one I've looked at supports that claim.
At the end of the day, what really matters is that everyone reading this understands the following.
Travis is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Detroit. Bob is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Cleveland. Because of this Travis is going to present the data in a way that makes Detroit look better. Bob is going to do the same for Cleveland.
Myself, I make money working with investors in multiple markets and I can tell you all from an unbiased standpoint that after doing over $200 Million in transactions, most all of these midwestern markets are the same.
Any market difference is going to be splitting hairs when it comes to the bottom line of your portfolio. If you are on BP you are likely an investor who is gonna buy like 1-10 houses. Those 1-10 houses being in Detroit or Cleveland or Akron or Baltimore or Indy or KC or Toledo or wherever doesn't really matter. What matters is what you buy in that market and how you manage it.James, a lot of this is definitely true.
I'm not going to nitpick everything but one big correction here is I am not "presenting" the data in one particular way.
I am literally quoting publicly available data. I have not manipulated it in any way and if someone takes issue with my source I'd love to see a different publicly available source that changes the underlying point.
C'mon now Travis, you're a smart guy. If you really wanted to, I am sure you could take all of that publicly available data and make a pitch for why Cleveland is better than Detroit. But you are not going to, because that wouldn't get you paid. Same reason Bob won't make a pitch for Detroit even though he probably could if he was incentivized to do so.
What I would like to know, what is the value of a property purchased for say 75k in Detroit with 1200 in rent.
This thread is getting a bit long in the tooth. If you want to dig into specifics of Detroit and talk shop I'm happy to share my experience via DM or whatever else.
No thanks, I wish you all the best there, keep crushing it,
Just do not spread BS about Cleveland. Those that bought in the Cleveland markets, 6 7 8 years ago, have tripled, quadrupled or more, on top of the 30% net caps. I can tell horror stories about Detroit but would never "sling mud " in an open forum.
Good luck
I didn’t at all “sling mud” and it’s insane it’s getting blown out of proportion.
All I said, again, is that the price to rent ratio favors Detroit today. That’s an indisputable fact.
It’s odd everyone is taking such offense to what is literally a fact. - Rental Property Investor · Brooke Park Drive · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes2y
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It blows my mind folks are taking so much offense to what I said about Cleveland.Quote from @Bob S.:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @Bob S.:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
lol, takes a mighty big pair of stones to base your argument off of data provided by Zillow.
Yes, James, it seems folks like to hyper focus on the fact I quoted Zillow data as if that destroys the underlying point.
The reality is the price-to-rent ratio in Detroit is far more favorable than it is in Cleveland.
If you believe that to be an inaccurate statement I would genuinely like to see your public data source because every single one I've looked at supports that claim.
At the end of the day, what really matters is that everyone reading this understands the following.
Travis is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Detroit. Bob is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Cleveland. Because of this Travis is going to present the data in a way that makes Detroit look better. Bob is going to do the same for Cleveland.
Myself, I make money working with investors in multiple markets and I can tell you all from an unbiased standpoint that after doing over $200 Million in transactions, most all of these midwestern markets are the same.
Any market difference is going to be splitting hairs when it comes to the bottom line of your portfolio. If you are on BP you are likely an investor who is gonna buy like 1-10 houses. Those 1-10 houses being in Detroit or Cleveland or Akron or Baltimore or Indy or KC or Toledo or wherever doesn't really matter. What matters is what you buy in that market and how you manage it.James, a lot of this is definitely true.
I'm not going to nitpick everything but one big correction here is I am not "presenting" the data in one particular way.
I am literally quoting publicly available data. I have not manipulated it in any way and if someone takes issue with my source I'd love to see a different publicly available source that changes the underlying point.
C'mon now Travis, you're a smart guy. If you really wanted to, I am sure you could take all of that publicly available data and make a pitch for why Cleveland is better than Detroit. But you are not going to, because that wouldn't get you paid. Same reason Bob won't make a pitch for Detroit even though he probably could if he was incentivized to do so.
What I would like to know, what is the value of a property purchased for say 75k in Detroit with 1200 in rent.
This thread is getting a bit long in the tooth. If you want to dig into specifics of Detroit and talk shop I'm happy to share my experience via DM or whatever else.
No thanks, I wish you all the best there, keep crushing it,
Just do not spread BS about Cleveland. Those that bought in the Cleveland markets, 6 7 8 years ago, have tripled, quadrupled or more, on top of the 30% net caps. I can tell horror stories about Detroit but would never "sling mud " in an open forum.
Good luck
I didn’t at all “sling mud” and it’s insane it’s getting blown out of proportion.
All I said, again, is that the price to rent ratio favors Detroit today. That’s an indisputable fact.
It’s odd everyone is taking such offense to what is literally a fact.Instead of just saying Detroit is great for xyz reasons you need to take digs at other markets. I’ve seen it several times from you.
Here you are spreading fake news about how slumlords are leaving Detroit and moving to Toledo.
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/921/topics/1123036-clev...
- Member since 2023 · 10 posts · 9 votes2y
I am looking at a few properties in Cleveland, does anyone have a reasonable general contractor to do the rehab? Please send to me if possible.
- Investor · Arroyo Grande, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2yPlease show me where I’ve taken “digs” at Cleveland.
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It blows my mind folks are taking so much offense to what I said about Cleveland.Quote from @Bob S.:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @Bob S.:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
lol, takes a mighty big pair of stones to base your argument off of data provided by Zillow.
Yes, James, it seems folks like to hyper focus on the fact I quoted Zillow data as if that destroys the underlying point.
The reality is the price-to-rent ratio in Detroit is far more favorable than it is in Cleveland.
If you believe that to be an inaccurate statement I would genuinely like to see your public data source because every single one I've looked at supports that claim.
At the end of the day, what really matters is that everyone reading this understands the following.
Travis is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Detroit. Bob is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Cleveland. Because of this Travis is going to present the data in a way that makes Detroit look better. Bob is going to do the same for Cleveland.
Myself, I make money working with investors in multiple markets and I can tell you all from an unbiased standpoint that after doing over $200 Million in transactions, most all of these midwestern markets are the same.
Any market difference is going to be splitting hairs when it comes to the bottom line of your portfolio. If you are on BP you are likely an investor who is gonna buy like 1-10 houses. Those 1-10 houses being in Detroit or Cleveland or Akron or Baltimore or Indy or KC or Toledo or wherever doesn't really matter. What matters is what you buy in that market and how you manage it.James, a lot of this is definitely true.
I'm not going to nitpick everything but one big correction here is I am not "presenting" the data in one particular way.
I am literally quoting publicly available data. I have not manipulated it in any way and if someone takes issue with my source I'd love to see a different publicly available source that changes the underlying point.
C'mon now Travis, you're a smart guy. If you really wanted to, I am sure you could take all of that publicly available data and make a pitch for why Cleveland is better than Detroit. But you are not going to, because that wouldn't get you paid. Same reason Bob won't make a pitch for Detroit even though he probably could if he was incentivized to do so.
What I would like to know, what is the value of a property purchased for say 75k in Detroit with 1200 in rent.
This thread is getting a bit long in the tooth. If you want to dig into specifics of Detroit and talk shop I'm happy to share my experience via DM or whatever else.
No thanks, I wish you all the best there, keep crushing it,
Just do not spread BS about Cleveland. Those that bought in the Cleveland markets, 6 7 8 years ago, have tripled, quadrupled or more, on top of the 30% net caps. I can tell horror stories about Detroit but would never "sling mud " in an open forum.
Good luck
I didn’t at all “sling mud” and it’s insane it’s getting blown out of proportion.
All I said, again, is that the price to rent ratio favors Detroit today. That’s an indisputable fact.
It’s odd everyone is taking such offense to what is literally a fact.Instead of just saying Detroit is great for xyz reasons you need to take digs at other markets. I’ve seen it several times from you.
I haven’t.
I feel like a broken record here but I guess I have to repeat myself again.
I simply said two things.
1) Investors I speak with saying “the numbers don’t work” in Cleveland for them anymore. Those are real conversations I have on a weekly basis. Not a dig.
2) Price to rent as a benchmark favors Detroit over Cleveland. Again, this is not a dog. It’s literally a fact with plenty of publicly available data sources to back it up.
I understand that folks that are heavily invested in Cleveland may misconstrue these statements as attacks on their market but I’d invite you to take a step back, leave the emotions at the door, and read what I wrote for what it is. - Rental Property Investor · Brooke Park Drive · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes2y
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Please show me where I’ve taken “digs” at Cleveland.Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It blows my mind folks are taking so much offense to what I said about Cleveland.Quote from @Bob S.:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @Bob S.:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
lol, takes a mighty big pair of stones to base your argument off of data provided by Zillow.
Yes, James, it seems folks like to hyper focus on the fact I quoted Zillow data as if that destroys the underlying point.
The reality is the price-to-rent ratio in Detroit is far more favorable than it is in Cleveland.
If you believe that to be an inaccurate statement I would genuinely like to see your public data source because every single one I've looked at supports that claim.
At the end of the day, what really matters is that everyone reading this understands the following.
Travis is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Detroit. Bob is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Cleveland. Because of this Travis is going to present the data in a way that makes Detroit look better. Bob is going to do the same for Cleveland.
Myself, I make money working with investors in multiple markets and I can tell you all from an unbiased standpoint that after doing over $200 Million in transactions, most all of these midwestern markets are the same.
Any market difference is going to be splitting hairs when it comes to the bottom line of your portfolio. If you are on BP you are likely an investor who is gonna buy like 1-10 houses. Those 1-10 houses being in Detroit or Cleveland or Akron or Baltimore or Indy or KC or Toledo or wherever doesn't really matter. What matters is what you buy in that market and how you manage it.James, a lot of this is definitely true.
I'm not going to nitpick everything but one big correction here is I am not "presenting" the data in one particular way.
I am literally quoting publicly available data. I have not manipulated it in any way and if someone takes issue with my source I'd love to see a different publicly available source that changes the underlying point.
C'mon now Travis, you're a smart guy. If you really wanted to, I am sure you could take all of that publicly available data and make a pitch for why Cleveland is better than Detroit. But you are not going to, because that wouldn't get you paid. Same reason Bob won't make a pitch for Detroit even though he probably could if he was incentivized to do so.
What I would like to know, what is the value of a property purchased for say 75k in Detroit with 1200 in rent.
This thread is getting a bit long in the tooth. If you want to dig into specifics of Detroit and talk shop I'm happy to share my experience via DM or whatever else.
No thanks, I wish you all the best there, keep crushing it,
Just do not spread BS about Cleveland. Those that bought in the Cleveland markets, 6 7 8 years ago, have tripled, quadrupled or more, on top of the 30% net caps. I can tell horror stories about Detroit but would never "sling mud " in an open forum.
Good luck
I didn’t at all “sling mud” and it’s insane it’s getting blown out of proportion.
All I said, again, is that the price to rent ratio favors Detroit today. That’s an indisputable fact.
It’s odd everyone is taking such offense to what is literally a fact.Instead of just saying Detroit is great for xyz reasons you need to take digs at other markets. I’ve seen it several times from you.
I haven’t.
I feel like a broken record here but I guess I have to repeat myself again.
I simply said two things.
1) Investors I speak with saying “the numbers don’t work” in Cleveland for them anymore. Those are real conversations I have on a weekly basis. Not a dig.
2) Price to rent as a benchmark favors Detroit over Cleveland. Again, this is not a dog. It’s literally a fact with plenty of publicly available data sources to back it up.
I understand that folks that are heavily invested in Cleveland may misconstrue these statements as attacks on their market but I’d invite you to take a step back, leave the emotions at the door, and read what I wrote for what it is.I don't really care about Cleveland but why are spreading fake news that slumlords are leaving Detroit and moving to Toledo.
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/921/topics/1123036-clev... - Investor · Arroyo Grande, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2y
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Please show me where I’ve taken “digs” at Cleveland.Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It blows my mind folks are taking so much offense to what I said about Cleveland.Quote from @Bob S.:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @Bob S.:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
lol, takes a mighty big pair of stones to base your argument off of data provided by Zillow.
Yes, James, it seems folks like to hyper focus on the fact I quoted Zillow data as if that destroys the underlying point.
The reality is the price-to-rent ratio in Detroit is far more favorable than it is in Cleveland.
If you believe that to be an inaccurate statement I would genuinely like to see your public data source because every single one I've looked at supports that claim.
At the end of the day, what really matters is that everyone reading this understands the following.
Travis is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Detroit. Bob is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Cleveland. Because of this Travis is going to present the data in a way that makes Detroit look better. Bob is going to do the same for Cleveland.
Myself, I make money working with investors in multiple markets and I can tell you all from an unbiased standpoint that after doing over $200 Million in transactions, most all of these midwestern markets are the same.
Any market difference is going to be splitting hairs when it comes to the bottom line of your portfolio. If you are on BP you are likely an investor who is gonna buy like 1-10 houses. Those 1-10 houses being in Detroit or Cleveland or Akron or Baltimore or Indy or KC or Toledo or wherever doesn't really matter. What matters is what you buy in that market and how you manage it.James, a lot of this is definitely true.
I'm not going to nitpick everything but one big correction here is I am not "presenting" the data in one particular way.
I am literally quoting publicly available data. I have not manipulated it in any way and if someone takes issue with my source I'd love to see a different publicly available source that changes the underlying point.
C'mon now Travis, you're a smart guy. If you really wanted to, I am sure you could take all of that publicly available data and make a pitch for why Cleveland is better than Detroit. But you are not going to, because that wouldn't get you paid. Same reason Bob won't make a pitch for Detroit even though he probably could if he was incentivized to do so.
What I would like to know, what is the value of a property purchased for say 75k in Detroit with 1200 in rent.
This thread is getting a bit long in the tooth. If you want to dig into specifics of Detroit and talk shop I'm happy to share my experience via DM or whatever else.
No thanks, I wish you all the best there, keep crushing it,
Just do not spread BS about Cleveland. Those that bought in the Cleveland markets, 6 7 8 years ago, have tripled, quadrupled or more, on top of the 30% net caps. I can tell horror stories about Detroit but would never "sling mud " in an open forum.
Good luck
I didn’t at all “sling mud” and it’s insane it’s getting blown out of proportion.
All I said, again, is that the price to rent ratio favors Detroit today. That’s an indisputable fact.
It’s odd everyone is taking such offense to what is literally a fact.Instead of just saying Detroit is great for xyz reasons you need to take digs at other markets. I’ve seen it several times from you.
I haven’t.
I feel like a broken record here but I guess I have to repeat myself again.
I simply said two things.
1) Investors I speak with saying “the numbers don’t work” in Cleveland for them anymore. Those are real conversations I have on a weekly basis. Not a dig.
2) Price to rent as a benchmark favors Detroit over Cleveland. Again, this is not a dog. It’s literally a fact with plenty of publicly available data sources to back it up.
I understand that folks that are heavily invested in Cleveland may misconstrue these statements as attacks on their market but I’d invite you to take a step back, leave the emotions at the door, and read what I wrote for what it is.I don't really care about Cleveland but why are spreading fake news that slumlords are leaving Detroit and moving to Toledo.
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/921/topics/1123036-clev...Well, that makes two of us on Cleveland! :-)
In terms of slumlords leaving Detroit for Toledo it's absolutely true. Or at least it was a couple years ago. Happy to put you in touch with a handful of them that own/owned thousands of doors in Detroit and picked up shop for Toledo if you'd like to fact check me.
They told me that the motivation was two fold:
1) Prices in Detroit had gotten too expensive to make their business "work" and Toledo is/was dirt cheap.
2) The rental cert regulations in Toledo are particularly lax compared to Detroit and evictions are/were far easier.
I have no idea if this is all current as of today, but it was at the time of that writing. Thanks for digging it up, I'm sure that didn't take you an insignificant amount of time/effort.
- Rental Property Investor · Brooke Park Drive · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes2y
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Please show me where I’ve taken “digs” at Cleveland.Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It blows my mind folks are taking so much offense to what I said about Cleveland.Quote from @Bob S.:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @Bob S.:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
lol, takes a mighty big pair of stones to base your argument off of data provided by Zillow.
Yes, James, it seems folks like to hyper focus on the fact I quoted Zillow data as if that destroys the underlying point.
The reality is the price-to-rent ratio in Detroit is far more favorable than it is in Cleveland.
If you believe that to be an inaccurate statement I would genuinely like to see your public data source because every single one I've looked at supports that claim.
At the end of the day, what really matters is that everyone reading this understands the following.
Travis is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Detroit. Bob is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Cleveland. Because of this Travis is going to present the data in a way that makes Detroit look better. Bob is going to do the same for Cleveland.
Myself, I make money working with investors in multiple markets and I can tell you all from an unbiased standpoint that after doing over $200 Million in transactions, most all of these midwestern markets are the same.
Any market difference is going to be splitting hairs when it comes to the bottom line of your portfolio. If you are on BP you are likely an investor who is gonna buy like 1-10 houses. Those 1-10 houses being in Detroit or Cleveland or Akron or Baltimore or Indy or KC or Toledo or wherever doesn't really matter. What matters is what you buy in that market and how you manage it.James, a lot of this is definitely true.
I'm not going to nitpick everything but one big correction here is I am not "presenting" the data in one particular way.
I am literally quoting publicly available data. I have not manipulated it in any way and if someone takes issue with my source I'd love to see a different publicly available source that changes the underlying point.
C'mon now Travis, you're a smart guy. If you really wanted to, I am sure you could take all of that publicly available data and make a pitch for why Cleveland is better than Detroit. But you are not going to, because that wouldn't get you paid. Same reason Bob won't make a pitch for Detroit even though he probably could if he was incentivized to do so.
What I would like to know, what is the value of a property purchased for say 75k in Detroit with 1200 in rent.
This thread is getting a bit long in the tooth. If you want to dig into specifics of Detroit and talk shop I'm happy to share my experience via DM or whatever else.
No thanks, I wish you all the best there, keep crushing it,
Just do not spread BS about Cleveland. Those that bought in the Cleveland markets, 6 7 8 years ago, have tripled, quadrupled or more, on top of the 30% net caps. I can tell horror stories about Detroit but would never "sling mud " in an open forum.
Good luck
I didn’t at all “sling mud” and it’s insane it’s getting blown out of proportion.
All I said, again, is that the price to rent ratio favors Detroit today. That’s an indisputable fact.
It’s odd everyone is taking such offense to what is literally a fact.Instead of just saying Detroit is great for xyz reasons you need to take digs at other markets. I’ve seen it several times from you.
I haven’t.
I feel like a broken record here but I guess I have to repeat myself again.
I simply said two things.
1) Investors I speak with saying “the numbers don’t work” in Cleveland for them anymore. Those are real conversations I have on a weekly basis. Not a dig.
2) Price to rent as a benchmark favors Detroit over Cleveland. Again, this is not a dog. It’s literally a fact with plenty of publicly available data sources to back it up.
I understand that folks that are heavily invested in Cleveland may misconstrue these statements as attacks on their market but I’d invite you to take a step back, leave the emotions at the door, and read what I wrote for what it is.I don't really care about Cleveland but why are spreading fake news that slumlords are leaving Detroit and moving to Toledo.
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/921/topics/1123036-clev...Well, that makes two of us on Cleveland! :-)
In terms of slumlords leaving Detroit for Toledo it's absolutely true. Or at least it was a couple years ago. Happy to put you in touch with a handful of them that own/owned thousands of doors in Detroit and picked up shop for Toledo if you'd like to fact check me.
They told me that the motivation was two fold:
1) Prices in Detroit had gotten too expensive to make their business "work" and Toledo is/was dirt cheap.
2) The rental cert regulations in Toledo are particularly lax compared to Detroit and evictions are/were far easier.
I have no idea if this is all current as of today, but it was at the time of that writing. Thanks for digging it up, I'm sure that didn't take you an insignificant amount of time/effort.
PM me their info thanks
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes2y
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Please show me where I’ve taken “digs” at Cleveland.Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It blows my mind folks are taking so much offense to what I said about Cleveland.Quote from @Bob S.:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @Bob S.:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
lol, takes a mighty big pair of stones to base your argument off of data provided by Zillow.
Yes, James, it seems folks like to hyper focus on the fact I quoted Zillow data as if that destroys the underlying point.
The reality is the price-to-rent ratio in Detroit is far more favorable than it is in Cleveland.
If you believe that to be an inaccurate statement I would genuinely like to see your public data source because every single one I've looked at supports that claim.
At the end of the day, what really matters is that everyone reading this understands the following.
Travis is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Detroit. Bob is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Cleveland. Because of this Travis is going to present the data in a way that makes Detroit look better. Bob is going to do the same for Cleveland.
Myself, I make money working with investors in multiple markets and I can tell you all from an unbiased standpoint that after doing over $200 Million in transactions, most all of these midwestern markets are the same.
Any market difference is going to be splitting hairs when it comes to the bottom line of your portfolio. If you are on BP you are likely an investor who is gonna buy like 1-10 houses. Those 1-10 houses being in Detroit or Cleveland or Akron or Baltimore or Indy or KC or Toledo or wherever doesn't really matter. What matters is what you buy in that market and how you manage it.James, a lot of this is definitely true.
I'm not going to nitpick everything but one big correction here is I am not "presenting" the data in one particular way.
I am literally quoting publicly available data. I have not manipulated it in any way and if someone takes issue with my source I'd love to see a different publicly available source that changes the underlying point.
C'mon now Travis, you're a smart guy. If you really wanted to, I am sure you could take all of that publicly available data and make a pitch for why Cleveland is better than Detroit. But you are not going to, because that wouldn't get you paid. Same reason Bob won't make a pitch for Detroit even though he probably could if he was incentivized to do so.
What I would like to know, what is the value of a property purchased for say 75k in Detroit with 1200 in rent.
This thread is getting a bit long in the tooth. If you want to dig into specifics of Detroit and talk shop I'm happy to share my experience via DM or whatever else.
No thanks, I wish you all the best there, keep crushing it,
Just do not spread BS about Cleveland. Those that bought in the Cleveland markets, 6 7 8 years ago, have tripled, quadrupled or more, on top of the 30% net caps. I can tell horror stories about Detroit but would never "sling mud " in an open forum.
Good luck
I didn’t at all “sling mud” and it’s insane it’s getting blown out of proportion.
All I said, again, is that the price to rent ratio favors Detroit today. That’s an indisputable fact.
It’s odd everyone is taking such offense to what is literally a fact.Instead of just saying Detroit is great for xyz reasons you need to take digs at other markets. I’ve seen it several times from you.
I haven’t.
I feel like a broken record here but I guess I have to repeat myself again.
I simply said two things.
1) Investors I speak with saying “the numbers don’t work” in Cleveland for them anymore. Those are real conversations I have on a weekly basis. Not a dig.
2) Price to rent as a benchmark favors Detroit over Cleveland. Again, this is not a dog. It’s literally a fact with plenty of publicly available data sources to back it up.
I understand that folks that are heavily invested in Cleveland may misconstrue these statements as attacks on their market but I’d invite you to take a step back, leave the emotions at the door, and read what I wrote for what it is.I don't really care about Cleveland but why are spreading fake news that slumlords are leaving Detroit and moving to Toledo.
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/921/topics/1123036-clev...Well, that makes two of us on Cleveland! :-)
In terms of slumlords leaving Detroit for Toledo it's absolutely true. Or at least it was a couple years ago. Happy to put you in touch with a handful of them that own/owned thousands of doors in Detroit and picked up shop for Toledo if you'd like to fact check me.
They told me that the motivation was two fold:
1) Prices in Detroit had gotten too expensive to make their business "work" and Toledo is/was dirt cheap.
2) The rental cert regulations in Toledo are particularly lax compared to Detroit and evictions are/were far easier.
I have no idea if this is all current as of today, but it was at the time of that writing. Thanks for digging it up, I'm sure that didn't take you an insignificant amount of time/effort.
PM me their info thanks
lol, how long does it take to drive from north Toledo to south Detroit, like 30 min? They're the same fellas. The exact same.
- Investor · Arroyo Grande, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2y
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Please show me where I’ve taken “digs” at Cleveland.Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It blows my mind folks are taking so much offense to what I said about Cleveland.Quote from @Bob S.:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @Bob S.:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
It seems I offended a couple folks with my conversations with folks about the Cleveland market.
We're all biased to our own markets, I get that. But the conversations I have echo the data.
The Zillow home price index in Cleveland is a hair over $100,000 and it's $66,500 in Detroit.
Meanwhile, Zillow pegs the median rent in Cleveland at $1,000/mo and $1,200/mo in Detroit.
When we look at it through that unbiased lens it's clear these numbers are NOT the same.
I'm sure you can find cheaper houses in Cleveland and claim it's "the same" as Detroit. But the reality is you're taking a dumpy area and house in Cleveland and then comparing it to a nicer area and home in Detroit to make it look comparable.
I'm sure this will ruffle even more feathers but it's the truth.
lol, takes a mighty big pair of stones to base your argument off of data provided by Zillow.
Yes, James, it seems folks like to hyper focus on the fact I quoted Zillow data as if that destroys the underlying point.
The reality is the price-to-rent ratio in Detroit is far more favorable than it is in Cleveland.
If you believe that to be an inaccurate statement I would genuinely like to see your public data source because every single one I've looked at supports that claim.
At the end of the day, what really matters is that everyone reading this understands the following.
Travis is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Detroit. Bob is here because he makes money working with investors who buy properties in Cleveland. Because of this Travis is going to present the data in a way that makes Detroit look better. Bob is going to do the same for Cleveland.
Myself, I make money working with investors in multiple markets and I can tell you all from an unbiased standpoint that after doing over $200 Million in transactions, most all of these midwestern markets are the same.
Any market difference is going to be splitting hairs when it comes to the bottom line of your portfolio. If you are on BP you are likely an investor who is gonna buy like 1-10 houses. Those 1-10 houses being in Detroit or Cleveland or Akron or Baltimore or Indy or KC or Toledo or wherever doesn't really matter. What matters is what you buy in that market and how you manage it.James, a lot of this is definitely true.
I'm not going to nitpick everything but one big correction here is I am not "presenting" the data in one particular way.
I am literally quoting publicly available data. I have not manipulated it in any way and if someone takes issue with my source I'd love to see a different publicly available source that changes the underlying point.
C'mon now Travis, you're a smart guy. If you really wanted to, I am sure you could take all of that publicly available data and make a pitch for why Cleveland is better than Detroit. But you are not going to, because that wouldn't get you paid. Same reason Bob won't make a pitch for Detroit even though he probably could if he was incentivized to do so.
What I would like to know, what is the value of a property purchased for say 75k in Detroit with 1200 in rent.
This thread is getting a bit long in the tooth. If you want to dig into specifics of Detroit and talk shop I'm happy to share my experience via DM or whatever else.
No thanks, I wish you all the best there, keep crushing it,
Just do not spread BS about Cleveland. Those that bought in the Cleveland markets, 6 7 8 years ago, have tripled, quadrupled or more, on top of the 30% net caps. I can tell horror stories about Detroit but would never "sling mud " in an open forum.
Good luck
I didn’t at all “sling mud” and it’s insane it’s getting blown out of proportion.
All I said, again, is that the price to rent ratio favors Detroit today. That’s an indisputable fact.
It’s odd everyone is taking such offense to what is literally a fact.Instead of just saying Detroit is great for xyz reasons you need to take digs at other markets. I’ve seen it several times from you.
I haven’t.
I feel like a broken record here but I guess I have to repeat myself again.
I simply said two things.
1) Investors I speak with saying “the numbers don’t work” in Cleveland for them anymore. Those are real conversations I have on a weekly basis. Not a dig.
2) Price to rent as a benchmark favors Detroit over Cleveland. Again, this is not a dog. It’s literally a fact with plenty of publicly available data sources to back it up.
I understand that folks that are heavily invested in Cleveland may misconstrue these statements as attacks on their market but I’d invite you to take a step back, leave the emotions at the door, and read what I wrote for what it is.I don't really care about Cleveland but why are spreading fake news that slumlords are leaving Detroit and moving to Toledo.
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/921/topics/1123036-clev...Well, that makes two of us on Cleveland! :-)
In terms of slumlords leaving Detroit for Toledo it's absolutely true. Or at least it was a couple years ago. Happy to put you in touch with a handful of them that own/owned thousands of doors in Detroit and picked up shop for Toledo if you'd like to fact check me.
They told me that the motivation was two fold:
1) Prices in Detroit had gotten too expensive to make their business "work" and Toledo is/was dirt cheap.
2) The rental cert regulations in Toledo are particularly lax compared to Detroit and evictions are/were far easier.
I have no idea if this is all current as of today, but it was at the time of that writing. Thanks for digging it up, I'm sure that didn't take you an insignificant amount of time/effort.
PM me their info thanks
Done!
- Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes2y
@Travis Biziorek when rental inventory looks like this:
And for sale inventory looks like this:
I find it a bit surprising anyone would strut around not only saying "it's the best REI market of them all" but to then keep on arguing it saying the selective data of 1 metric "proves" it as best....
From the above, I'd say it looks a whole lot like a falling-knife of a market. That kind of saturation, does not bode well for landlord's.
If you have a way that this above is something profitable and great, please, I am all ear's.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes2y
Quote from @James Hamling:
@Travis Biziorek when rental inventory looks like this:
And for sale inventory looks like this:
I find it a bit surprising anyone would strut around not only saying "it's the best REI market of them all" but to then keep on arguing it saying the selective data of 1 metric "proves" it as best....
From the above, I'd say it looks a whole lot like a falling-knife of a market. That kind of saturation, does not bode well for landlord's.
If you have a way that this above is something profitable and great, please, I am all ear's.
Daaaaang son, this thread still poppin!
- Investor · Arroyo Grande, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2y
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @James Hamling:
@Travis Biziorek when rental inventory looks like this:
And for sale inventory looks like this:
I find it a bit surprising anyone would strut around not only saying "it's the best REI market of them all" but to then keep on arguing it saying the selective data of 1 metric "proves" it as best....
From the above, I'd say it looks a whole lot like a falling-knife of a market. That kind of saturation, does not bode well for landlord's.
If you have a way that this above is something profitable and great, please, I am all ear's.
Daaaaang son, this thread still poppin!
LOL my thought exactly!
- Investor · Arroyo Grande, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2y
Quote from @James Hamling:
@Travis Biziorek when rental inventory looks like this:
And for sale inventory looks like this:
I find it a bit surprising anyone would strut around not only saying "it's the best REI market of them all" but to then keep on arguing it saying the selective data of 1 metric "proves" it as best....
From the above, I'd say it looks a whole lot like a falling-knife of a market. That kind of saturation, does not bode well for landlord's.
If you have a way that this above is something profitable and great, please, I am all ear's.
Hey James, I can't tell if this is a serious reply or not given you've zoomed out to the point where you're likely looking at ~100 sq miles of urban living here.
As @James Wise already noted, I'm shocked this thread is still on your mind. Hopefully you didn't lose too much sleep over it all.
I am more than happy to engage in intelligent conversation regarding the Detroit market. But given this reply it doesn't seem you're really interested in that.
If I'm wrong or your attitude changes, please feel free to shoot me a DM and I'd be more than happy to give you some pointers on Detroit.
- Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes2y
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Hamling:
@Travis Biziorek when rental inventory looks like this:
And for sale inventory looks like this:
I find it a bit surprising anyone would strut around not only saying "it's the best REI market of them all" but to then keep on arguing it saying the selective data of 1 metric "proves" it as best....
From the above, I'd say it looks a whole lot like a falling-knife of a market. That kind of saturation, does not bode well for landlord's.
If you have a way that this above is something profitable and great, please, I am all ear's.
Hey James, I can't tell if this is a serious reply or not given you've zoomed out to the point where you're likely looking at ~100 sq miles of urban living here.
As @James Wise already noted, I'm shocked this thread is still on your mind. Hopefully you didn't lose too much sleep over it all.
I am more than happy to engage in intelligent conversation regarding the Detroit market. But given this reply it doesn't seem you're really interested in that.
If I'm wrong or your attitude changes, please feel free to shoot me a DM and I'd be more than happy to give you some pointers on Detroit.
Lol, so you won't answer to any pointed question on the Detroit market what-so-ever, nothing just "it's the best, Cleveland suck's" and that's it.
I have brought up several VERY valid, data driven counter point's, comment's and questions and each time you respond with some defensive, uber-evasive BS to run-away from the fact's. Look I get it, CA people are often intimidated and terrified of those of us who just speak our mind's and call things how it is, maybe it's all that kale and Tofu, IDK. But hey, how about borrow some big-boy-pant's for a few minutes and attempt a response to the counter point's brought up on your "nirvana" of Detroit.
Or do you got nothing?
From what I see in the data, landlords seem to be scrambling to get out of Detroit, all but giving away properties. And for renting, it's flippin flooded with offerings. I pulled that from Zillow, anyone can go on and search "homes for rent Detroit MI" just as i did and look at the ocean of offering's. I am guessing they'd ask self same question I did, how in the heck can rent's hold when there is a bazillion offerings. Why is there so much available inventory? And at same time ton's of 4-sale inventory, at crazy dirt cheap prices? And how much is repairs? Are repairs way cheaper or will i get f'd on those cheap rent's second there is a furnace or a/c to repair?
If all these questions are too much for you to handle Travis, than i suggest you don't jump on the podium and declare your market is the best of em all if not ready to defend the statement.
- Investor · Arroyo Grande, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2y
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Hamling:
@Travis Biziorek when rental inventory looks like this:
And for sale inventory looks like this:
I find it a bit surprising anyone would strut around not only saying "it's the best REI market of them all" but to then keep on arguing it saying the selective data of 1 metric "proves" it as best....
From the above, I'd say it looks a whole lot like a falling-knife of a market. That kind of saturation, does not bode well for landlord's.
If you have a way that this above is something profitable and great, please, I am all ear's.
Hey James, I can't tell if this is a serious reply or not given you've zoomed out to the point where you're likely looking at ~100 sq miles of urban living here.
As @James Wise already noted, I'm shocked this thread is still on your mind. Hopefully you didn't lose too much sleep over it all.
I am more than happy to engage in intelligent conversation regarding the Detroit market. But given this reply it doesn't seem you're really interested in that.
If I'm wrong or your attitude changes, please feel free to shoot me a DM and I'd be more than happy to give you some pointers on Detroit.
Lol, so you won't answer to any pointed question on the Detroit market what-so-ever, nothing just "it's the best, Cleveland suck's" and that's it.
I have brought up several VERY valid, data driven counter point's, comment's and questions and each time you respond with some defensive, uber-evasive BS to run-away from the fact's. Look I get it, CA people are often intimidated and terrified of those of us who just speak our mind's and call things how it is, maybe it's all that kale and Tofu, IDK. But hey, how about borrow some big-boy-pant's for a few minutes and attempt a response to the counter point's brought up on your "nirvana" of Detroit.
Or do you got nothing?
From what I see in the data, landlords seem to be scrambling to get out of Detroit, all but giving away properties. And for renting, it's flippin flooded with offerings. I pulled that from Zillow, anyone can go on and search "homes for rent Detroit MI" just as i did and look at the ocean of offering's. I am guessing they'd ask self same question I did, how in the heck can rent's hold when there is a bazillion offerings. Why is there so much available inventory? And at same time ton's of 4-sale inventory, at crazy dirt cheap prices? And how much is repairs? Are repairs way cheaper or will i get f'd on those cheap rent's second there is a furnace or a/c to repair?
If all these questions are too much for you to handle Travis, than i suggest you don't jump on the podium and declare your market is the best or em all if not ready to defend the statement.
Hey James, I'll make one last attempt to satisfy your desire to keep talking about this topic.
I have answers to all of your questions. And again, I'm happy to go over it all with you but writing out responses in a back-and-forth isn't efficient.
It's also impossible to know what you're referencing when you cite "data" regarding landlords "scrambling to get out of Detroit".
If you'd like to show me the data and have a phone call, I'm happy to do that. But if not, let's do everyone a favor here and stop hitting this thread yeah?
- Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes2yFYI, Detroit in it's entirety is 139 sq miles. This is JUST South Detroit, the area in question. Screens and screens of similar so I just screen shoot'd one. So maybe more accurate to say 20'ish square miles....... IDK, I didn't measure, Zillow doesn't show that measure. But feel free to find the screenshot of Detroit showing differently.
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Hamling:
@Travis Biziorek when rental inventory looks like this:
And for sale inventory looks like this:
I find it a bit surprising anyone would strut around not only saying "it's the best REI market of them all" but to then keep on arguing it saying the selective data of 1 metric "proves" it as best....
From the above, I'd say it looks a whole lot like a falling-knife of a market. That kind of saturation, does not bode well for landlord's.
If you have a way that this above is something profitable and great, please, I am all ear's.
....zoomed out to the point where you're likely looking at ~100 sq miles of urban living here.....
Or would a # work better, like 910?
To put into terms:
Twin Cities MN is 3,000 sq mile, and has 347 homes listed for rent right now.
So yes, 910 unit's listed for rent (3X) in a place about what, 12% the size, yeah seems saturated to me.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes2y
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @Travis Biziorek:
Quote from @James Hamling:
@Travis Biziorek when rental inventory looks like this:
And for sale inventory looks like this:
I find it a bit surprising anyone would strut around not only saying "it's the best REI market of them all" but to then keep on arguing it saying the selective data of 1 metric "proves" it as best....
From the above, I'd say it looks a whole lot like a falling-knife of a market. That kind of saturation, does not bode well for landlord's.
If you have a way that this above is something profitable and great, please, I am all ear's.
Hey James, I can't tell if this is a serious reply or not given you've zoomed out to the point where you're likely looking at ~100 sq miles of urban living here.
As @James Wise already noted, I'm shocked this thread is still on your mind. Hopefully you didn't lose too much sleep over it all.
I am more than happy to engage in intelligent conversation regarding the Detroit market. But given this reply it doesn't seem you're really interested in that.
If I'm wrong or your attitude changes, please feel free to shoot me a DM and I'd be more than happy to give you some pointers on Detroit.
Lol, so you won't answer to any pointed question on the Detroit market what-so-ever, nothing just "it's the best, Cleveland suck's" and that's it.
I have brought up several VERY valid, data driven counter point's, comment's and questions and each time you respond with some defensive, uber-evasive BS to run-away from the fact's. Look I get it, CA people are often intimidated and terrified of those of us who just speak our mind's and call things how it is, maybe it's all that kale and Tofu, IDK. But hey, how about borrow some big-boy-pant's for a few minutes and attempt a response to the counter point's brought up on your "nirvana" of Detroit.
Or do you got nothing?
From what I see in the data, landlords seem to be scrambling to get out of Detroit, all but giving away properties. And for renting, it's flippin flooded with offerings. I pulled that from Zillow, anyone can go on and search "homes for rent Detroit MI" just as i did and look at the ocean of offering's. I am guessing they'd ask self same question I did, how in the heck can rent's hold when there is a bazillion offerings. Why is there so much available inventory? And at same time ton's of 4-sale inventory, at crazy dirt cheap prices? And how much is repairs? Are repairs way cheaper or will i get f'd on those cheap rent's second there is a furnace or a/c to repair?
If all these questions are too much for you to handle Travis, than i suggest you don't jump on the podium and declare your market is the best or em all if not ready to defend the statement.
Hey James, I'll make one last attempt to satisfy your desire to keep talking about this topic.
I have answers to all of your questions. And again, I'm happy to go over it all with you but writing out responses in a back-and-forth isn't efficient.
It's also impossible to know what you're referencing when you cite "data" regarding landlords "scrambling to get out of Detroit".
If you'd like to show me the data and have a phone call, I'm happy to do that. But if not, let's do everyone a favor here and stop hitting this thread yeah?
Bruhhhhh. Why would ya'll have a phone call? That idea is dumb as hell. Put the points and counter points out there for the audience. That's what we're all here for isn't it?
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