Found Deals Off Market - Here's How

Found Deals Off Market - Here's How

Investor · Nationally · Member since 2023 · 1k+ posts · 854 votes

Here is a big pro tip:

Stop buying on the MLS. It’s too expensive! There is a process called "Buying Off Market". Where do you think all of those properties on the MLS come from? They were "off market" until they were "discovered by an agent" and put on the MLS. Think of it this way, someone decides to sell their property, so they call a realtor who takes 6% (so they can get paid) and lists it on the MLS. When you find the property before it goes on the MLS, you can buy for 6% less. On a $400,000 house that's about a $24,000 savings. I do this all of the time.

Then I use “Subject To”, which runs $15,000 to $20,000 to buy a property instead of putting 20% down ($80,000 on a $400,000 property), and a similar process called “Seller Financing” that gives way more than 1% monthly income.

There are other ways called “SEO” and “Pay Per Click” and “Yard Signs” and so on to find properties.

That’s right, you can buy 3 properties for $50,000 “Off Market”. Yes, you get depreciation and tax write offs. And it can be done out of state. These are decent homes in decent neighborhoods. Don’t try this in cheap neighborhoods. It’s too much work.

For instance, This property was bought for $5,000 (Five Thousand Dollars).

Click on images to enlarge Purchase & Sale Agreement (many more examples available).

and this one was bought for $5,000 (Five Thousand Dollars).

There are hundreds of people doing these every day around the country.

My experience is the best place to focus on these are the typical places. Dallas, Atlanta, Indianapolis, Columbus. Places where investors are welcome and prices are reasonable.

We’ve had success in WA, AZ, TX, AL, GA.

Oh, I’d not tried in Socal yet, because of the high price point and unfriendly landlord/tenant laws. If someone is buying “off market” in California, please comment.

Isn’t it amazing to see what can be done with investment dollars. Instead of the bank making the money, the investor does. What a thought. A certain amount of people are willing to sell on Creative Finance, like Subject To, (Subto), Wraps & Seller Finance for various reasons.

It's usually under $15,000 or so in "up front" money, so make sure you have some capital. No need for credit, no need for financing. These properties can be used for a rental, fix & flip, STR, Lease Option, 1031 whatever crosses your mind.

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Real Estate Broker · Coppell, TX · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes
2y

Don't be fooled by "off market" properties.  "Off Market" is just a made up marketing term.  So many people get suckered into these "deals".  When 20-30 people show up at 2pm on a Friday to see an "off market" deal, it's not really off market is it?  Very much on the market.  Plus probably 70% or more of these "off market" deals never close.  Title issues, seller issues, non-refundable deposits, no inspection period, lending issues, appraisal issues, liens, IRS liens, city liens, no wills, unpaid back taxes, solar liens, and all kinds of other crazy stuff.   Plus they take a lot of money and time to find and try to make a deal.  Who pays the closing costs on these deals?  If you're the buyer often you're offering to do that which adds to your cost.  If you're buying from a wholesaler, then you might well be pay closing costs x2, theirs and yours.  How quickly those "deals" become non-deals.

Plenty of deals on the MLS. I see them almost every day. Very efficient process. Save your time and money and a ton of headaches vs only focusing on off market deals. For every 100 people I meet who say they will never buy off MLS, I can probably show you 90-95 that haven't done a deal in the last year.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Real Estate Agent · Grand Junction, CO · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 736 votes
    2y

    Having a relationship with an investor friendly and proactive Realtor can't hurt. We hear about off market stuff fairly frequently. @Account Closed

  • Real Estate Broker · Coppell, TX · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y

    Don't be fooled by "off market" properties.  "Off Market" is just a made up marketing term.  So many people get suckered into these "deals".  When 20-30 people show up at 2pm on a Friday to see an "off market" deal, it's not really off market is it?  Very much on the market.  Plus probably 70% or more of these "off market" deals never close.  Title issues, seller issues, non-refundable deposits, no inspection period, lending issues, appraisal issues, liens, IRS liens, city liens, no wills, unpaid back taxes, solar liens, and all kinds of other crazy stuff.   Plus they take a lot of money and time to find and try to make a deal.  Who pays the closing costs on these deals?  If you're the buyer often you're offering to do that which adds to your cost.  If you're buying from a wholesaler, then you might well be pay closing costs x2, theirs and yours.  How quickly those "deals" become non-deals.

    Plenty of deals on the MLS. I see them almost every day. Very efficient process. Save your time and money and a ton of headaches vs only focusing on off market deals. For every 100 people I meet who say they will never buy off MLS, I can probably show you 90-95 that haven't done a deal in the last year.

  • Real Estate Broker · Coppell, TX · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y

    There's a myth that distressed properties can't be on the MLS. I visit them almost every day. Don't have to fix them up or do one thing to sell them. Plenty of investors scouring the MLS for distressed and ugly properties. I also find it super interesting when wholesalers buy off the MLS and then turn around and market it as "off market" Happens all the time. Well I guess it is off market NOW, but 4 weeks ago you could have purchased for a lower price on MLS.

    Never said every property has to be on MLS to be legit, just a better chance of it. I know my main investor friendly title company says 70% of those deals that get turned in to them don't close. Who has time for that? What does that add to your costs? I didn't ask them about MLS deals, but I'd bet 95% or more of them get done.

    Ask your main title company how many of their MLS deals close vs how many of their wholesale/off market deals. Once the NAR lawsuits are settled, I'll bet those same lawyers go after wholesalers and "off market" deals.

  • Casey CoffeyBusiness Member
    Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2021 · 15 posts · 20 votes
    2y

    @Ken M. It can absolutely be done in California, and although California makes it very difficult to manage properties due to tenant-friendly laws, if you know what you're doing or have a great property manager, California is an excellent place to invest due to high appreciation. I purchased an off-market triplex that I was able to negotiate seller financing on with only $18k down. I have owned this property for just over two years now, and after stabilizing rents, I am nearly cash flowing $1000 per month on this property. I have purchased many off-market deals in California, but one other that was a great deal: I purchased a single-family residence off-market, negotiated the owner down to $310k, and the property appraised for $380k. Due to the appraisal, instead of the standard 20% down on an investment property, I was able to only put down 10% and get a second loan for the additional 10% down payment. All of this happened at closing, so I currently have two mortgages on this property and am still cash flowing. Cash flow is about $250 per month, but I currently have about $140k in trapped equity in the property. I am going to give it another 12 months to see if rates come down, as my first mortgage has a 6.25% rate and my second has an 8.125% rate. If I can refinance to combine loans and lower rates, my cash flow will significantly go up. If rates don’t go down, I will 1031 exchange so I can utilize my equity.

  • Realtor · Dallas - Fort Worth Metroplex, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 925 votes
    2y

    @Ken M. I think we have agreed to disagree on this topic before.

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Account Closed:

    Here is a big pro tip:

    Stop buying on the MLS. It’s too expensive! There is a process called "Buying Off Market". Where do you think all of those properties on the MLS come from? They were "off market" until they were "discovered by an agent" and put on the MLS. Think of it this way, someone decides to sell their property, so they call a realtor who takes 6% (so they can get paid) and lists it on the MLS. When you find the property before it goes on the MLS, you can buy for 6% less. On a $400,000 house that's about a $24,000 savings. I do this all of the time.

    Then I use “Subject To”, which runs $15,000 to $20,000 to buy a property instead of putting 20% down ($80,000 on a $400,000 property), and a similar process called “Seller Financing” that gives way more than 1% monthly income.

    There are other ways called “SEO” and “Pay Per Click” and “Yard Signs” and so on to find properties.


    Ok, everyone ready for the REALITY-CHECK by an ACTUAL real-life Pro????

    Ken start's by hitting the nail-on-the-head, before running off into fantasy land.... 

    YES, the unspoken TRUTH of it all is that a MLS listing STARTED life as an OFF-MARKET deal that a REALTOR dug-up, discovered, ran down the rabbit hole of analysis, confirmation, negotiation, and MADE an ON-MARKET purchase opportunity.

    So kiddo's, let's stop there and put our thinking cap's on for a moment:
    If we want to MOST READILY/EASILY/CHEAPLY find OFF-MARKET purchase opportunities, which do we think that would be???? 

    (A) creating a complete system from 0, to source these potentials, build the websites, pay the PPC fee's, maybe some billboards, maybe some radio and tv spots, maybe pay a marketing team, then a coach to figure out how to do all the things, or burn $$$$ for a few years to sort it all out.
    ---- OR ----

    (B) Network with the REALTORS who already have done ALL that in (A), and have gotten dang-good at it, so good that they are weekly/daily sourcing potentials. And connect as a go-to buyer to "get-in-early" as a ready "pocket-buyer" they can simple serve these to on a silver platter.... NO expense, coach, ad expense or what-not required. 

    Hhhmmmmmmm....... I wonder which is most efficient/cheapest/quickest.... (it's called snark)

    Ok, now onto Ken's ridiculousness of fantasy land. 
    Just because it's off-market does NOT make the transaction FREE!
    Come on, COMMON SENSE. Closing cost's $, and a seller with half a wit is going to want some kind of representation to know this ya-ho saying there "A CA$H BUYER" isn't working to rip em off. That's REALITY. So maybe they use an agent, if there SMART they use an agent so not only do they get that protection in transaction process BUT also find out what other sale $ potential they have in market. But at minimum they are using a R.E. Attorney, unless there a complete idiot void of any common sense OR friends/family with common sense.     Those professionals cost-$. 

    Next, yes terms sales exist. I do terms sales literally EVERY month, I'd have to dig to find how many months in last 4/5 years I didn't have/do a terms sale. And that also shows how NOT special a terms sale is, they have been COMMON since the early 80's, so common that most Realtor/MLS associations have some standard templated approved contracts for these. No "Guru" needed.

    BUT.... Oh all the but's. As a REAL-LIFE Pro who does term sales all the flippin time AND sources off-market deals constantly, HERE IS THE REALITY OF THEM;    There is significant learning curve in discussing this with virtually any/all sellers. I have had literally 1 in recent years who readily knew what it was. Most are all but clueless what it is, and with that, very wisely, standoffish and scared of such an unknown that relates to hundreds of thousands of dollars.     So one must have the LEGITIMACY that invites/empowers it being a conversation vs a "NO, not interested". Than, it's a detailed conversation, often several, to help EDUCATE the seller of all the details to it, the "what-if's" and so on.     

    And after all that, it ONLY best applies to certain situations. If seller can readily get $400k at market, owes $125k, why would they do a terms sale? Why lock up the equity? Some will, but many won't, because for many, no, it doesn't make sense, many ARE better served getting ALL that equity in capital NOW to do the things they need/want/plan to do with it now. 

    And Sub-To is simply the single DUMBEST most DANGEROUS way to transact property BAR-NONE!

    And from there it's just Ken trying to sell his "Guru" program which still makes me chuckle that someone who so barely has a clue what he's doing himself is billing himself as the "Guru" so-yeah, lol. 
    Ken's not totally clueless, but he's FAR from the "Guru" status he portrays and that's the whole rub to it; the guy with a tonic to ease an upset stomach saying it will cure ANY/ALL ailments, regrow limb's, lol. Yeah....

    As for buying via "wholesaler" of any form or fashion, come-on-now.... 
    So would you rather buy a property with TOTAL CLARITY of the #'s, who's getting paid what, when, how, why....
    ---- OR ----
    Buy a property via some yahoo that just says "it's a great deal" and gives LIMITED vision of the #'s, deal, who get's what, etc etc... 

    A LICENSED Realtor/Broker IS a LICENSED Real Estate Wholesaler!
    Think on that for a moment because it's the most accurate truth of it. 
    Do you think it's best to buy with a licensed, or UNlicensed person? Which has highest % to have lies, cheating, BS, scam etc in it????

    Fact is, a persons time/money is BEST served by finding that right fit Realtor/broker UNTIL you yourself become the professional, and are ready to spend all the $$$$ and time in building your real estate "machine" just like that licensed professional. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Casey Coffey:

    @Ken M. It can absolutely be done in California, and although California makes it very difficult to manage properties due to tenant-friendly laws, if you know what you're doing or have a great property manager, California is an excellent place to invest due to high appreciation. I purchased an off-market triplex that I was able to negotiate seller financing on with only $18k down. I have owned this property for just over two years now, and after stabilizing rents, I am nearly cash flowing $1000 per month on this property. I have purchased many off-market deals in California, but one other that was a great deal: I purchased a single-family residence off-market, negotiated the owner down to $310k, and the property appraised for $380k. Due to the appraisal, instead of the standard 20% down on an investment property, I was able to only put down 10% and get a second loan for the additional 10% down payment. All of this happened at closing, so I currently have two mortgages on this property and am still cash flowing. Cash flow is about $250 per month, but I currently have about $140k in trapped equity in the property. I am going to give it another 12 months to see if rates come down, as my first mortgage has a 6.25% rate and my second has an 8.125% rate. If I can refinance to combine loans and lower rates, my cash flow will significantly go up. If rates don’t go down, I will 1031 exchange so I can utilize my equity.


    Ok.... We need to take a moment to APPLAUD Casey here! 

    You my friend are a HUSTLER! And HUSTLERS find a way, because they create one! And for that, you will do very well in this world, because your creating success not sitting around waiting for it to fall into your lap. 

    Kudo's to you Casey! 

  • Casey CoffeyBusiness Member
    Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2021 · 15 posts · 20 votes
    2y

    @James Hamling thanks James, “Your network is your net worth." If I hadn't ingrained in every person I meet that I am a real estate investor and I buy properties, I would have never found these deals. For these deals and many others I have done, they came from relationships I have created with others. The single-family residence I spoke about came from my best friend, who is not a real estate investor. He let me know the house across the street from him appeared to be being fixed up, so I went and knocked on the door and spoke to the owner. That turned out to be a fantastic opportunity, to which I kicked my best friend a couple of grand and hired my him to finish up the rehab, which by the way, was only about $10k in work, for floors and paint.

    The triplex was from a client of mine whose friend was dying of cancer and wanted out of the triplex so once he died, his wife didn’t have to manage the property. I offered him seller financing so his wife could have guaranteed income without the hassle of dealing with tenants. He loved the idea and was open to working with me on payment as I gave him the purchase price he was looking for, so I was able to structure it with cash flow from day one, at the time rents were 40% below market value. Within 2 years, I have raised rents to just under market and placed all utilities into tenants' names (the previous owner was paying utilities), and this property is now a cash king. It was a win-win for both parties. Again, it’s not always about what you know, but who you know. Make it a point to put yourself out there and let everybody you know, know that you invest in real estate. If you do just that one thing, which is absolutely free, you will 100% have a deal come across your desk.

  • Long Island, NY · Member since 2019 · 29 posts · 21 votes
    2y

    @Casey Coffey The house your friend told you was being fixed up, what was your intent when you talked to the owner? What did you say to him/her? I live in NY, looking to get started here and I see properties being fixed up all the time. Thanks

  • Casey CoffeyBusiness Member
    Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2021 · 15 posts · 20 votes
    2y

    @Donnie Tucker I knew the property was a rental because my buddy was friends with the old tenants. He had seen, maybe met the owner before, so he knew it was him doing the work on the property himself. My intent in going over to the property was to see if he was interested in selling it. To my surprise, he was, and even better, he wanted to do a 1031 exchange for a duplex in North Carolina, so I knew he needed help with his timeline in finding a home.

    On the title, the property was listed as a 2-bedroom, but at some point, the owner had put up one wall and a closet to create a 3rd bedroom. I made him an offer based on the title showing the property as a 2-bedroom home. Originally, I offered him $300k. He didn’t say much in response to my offer other than he would let me know. A couple of weeks went by, and I followed up with him, leaving him a voicemail. A couple of days after that, he called me and said he was ready to sell but countered me at $310,000. He was also valuing the property based on 2 bedrooms but was "giving a discount" for not using an agent. I agreed without batting an eye. Looking back I probably could said no, 300k final offer and he woulda took it, but losing this deal over 10k would have been stupid. We didn't have a contract; we just both opened escrow.

    The only thing it needed was floors, as he had torn all the floors out. He let me put floors in during escrow so I could get the property appraised (this was risky without a contract), but he seemed like an honest guy. I put the floors in, got the appraisal, and they appraised it based on 3 bedrooms, and the value came in at $380k (I did not share this with him). This is how I was able to secure a 10% loan for my additional down payment. Which at the time I didn’t know was possible but I asked my lender and they said it could be done. Additionally, before closing I painted the kitchen cabinets and began marketing the property for rent; Again this was risky, and I was a bit nervous he would back out after I putting time and money into the property without owning it, but I knew he wanted to sell all his California properties so I did it anyways. By the time I closed, I had tenants moving in that same week at positive cash flow. I did not have a mortgage payment for the first 30 days so I got $2400 back in my pocket to use as reserves for this property. This property has (knock on wood) very little maintenance, I have the original tenants still living there and they just asked to renew for another year, so property as been occupied since I purchased it and will be at least for another 14 months.

    Also, just for everyone to know, this is in Los Angeles County, along with all the properties I currently own.

  • Michael SmytheBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Metro Detroit · Member since 2023 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y

    First, instead of fighting over deals like there's a limited supply, why don't we all create our own "abundance mentalities" - because no one on this thread has the infrastructure to handle EVERY possible deal:)

    Secondly, I find it odd that agents are fighting against "off market" sales, but could care less that at least two-thirds of rental transactions are technically "off market" or "off-MLS" (no agents involved).

    Yet, every agent licensing course covers the handling of rental leases.

    Guessing that agents only get wound about this topic if a certain number of zero's are involved?

    Logical Property Management4.9464 Reviews
  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @James Hamling:
    Quote from @Account Closed:

    Here is a big pro tip:

    Stop buying on the MLS. It’s too expensive! There is a process called "Buying Off Market". Where do you think all of those properties on the MLS come from? They were "off market" until they were "discovered by an agent" and put on the MLS. Think of it this way, someone decides to sell their property, so they call a realtor who takes 6% (so they can get paid) and lists it on the MLS. When you find the property before it goes on the MLS, you can buy for 6% less. On a $400,000 house that's about a $24,000 savings. I do this all of the time.

    Then I use “Subject To”, which runs $15,000 to $20,000 to buy a property instead of putting 20% down ($80,000 on a $400,000 property), and a similar process called “Seller Financing” that gives way more than 1% monthly income.

    There are other ways called “SEO” and “Pay Per Click” and “Yard Signs” and so on to find properties.


    Ok, everyone ready for the REALITY-CHECK by an ACTUAL real-life Pro????

    Ken start's by hitting the nail-on-the-head, before running off into fantasy land.... 

    YES, the unspoken TRUTH of it all is that a MLS listing STARTED life as an OFF-MARKET deal that a REALTOR dug-up, discovered, ran down the rabbit hole of analysis, confirmation, negotiation, and MADE an ON-MARKET purchase opportunity.

    So kiddo's, let's stop there and put our thinking cap's on for a moment:
    If we want to MOST READILY/EASILY/CHEAPLY find OFF-MARKET purchase opportunities, which do we think that would be???? 

    (A) creating a complete system from 0, to source these potentials, build the websites, pay the PPC fee's, maybe some billboards, maybe some radio and tv spots, maybe pay a marketing team, then a coach to figure out how to do all the things, or burn $$$$ for a few years to sort it all out.
    ---- OR ----

    (B) Network with the REALTORS who already have done ALL that in (A), and have gotten dang-good at it, so good that they are weekly/daily sourcing potentials. And connect as a go-to buyer to "get-in-early" as a ready "pocket-buyer" they can simple serve these to on a silver platter.... NO expense, coach, ad expense or what-not required. 

    Hhhmmmmmmm....... I wonder which is most efficient/cheapest/quickest.... (it's called snark)

    Ok, now onto Ken's ridiculousness of fantasy land. 
    Just because it's off-market does NOT make the transaction FREE!
    Come on, COMMON SENSE. Closing cost's $, and a seller with half a wit is going to want some kind of representation to know this ya-ho saying there "A CA$H BUYER" isn't working to rip em off. That's REALITY. So maybe they use an agent, if there SMART they use an agent so not only do they get that protection in transaction process BUT also find out what other sale $ potential they have in market. But at minimum they are using a R.E. Attorney, unless there a complete idiot void of any common sense OR friends/family with common sense.     Those professionals cost-$. 

    Next, yes terms sales exist. I do terms sales literally EVERY month, I'd have to dig to find how many months in last 4/5 years I didn't have/do a terms sale. And that also shows how NOT special a terms sale is, they have been COMMON since the early 80's, so common that most Realtor/MLS associations have some standard templated approved contracts for these. No "Guru" needed.

    BUT.... Oh all the but's. As a REAL-LIFE Pro who does term sales all the flippin time AND sources off-market deals constantly, HERE IS THE REALITY OF THEM;    There is significant learning curve in discussing this with virtually any/all sellers. I have had literally 1 in recent years who readily knew what it was. Most are all but clueless what it is, and with that, very wisely, standoffish and scared of such an unknown that relates to hundreds of thousands of dollars.     So one must have the LEGITIMACY that invites/empowers it being a conversation vs a "NO, not interested". Than, it's a detailed conversation, often several, to help EDUCATE the seller of all the details to it, the "what-if's" and so on.     

    And after all that, it ONLY best applies to certain situations. If seller can readily get $400k at market, owes $125k, why would they do a terms sale? Why lock up the equity? Some will, but many won't, because for many, no, it doesn't make sense, many ARE better served getting ALL that equity in capital NOW to do the things they need/want/plan to do with it now. 

    And Sub-To is simply the single DUMBEST most DANGEROUS way to transact property BAR-NONE!

    And from there it's just Ken trying to sell his "Guru" program which still makes me chuckle that someone who so barely has a clue what he's doing himself is billing himself as the "Guru" so-yeah, lol. 
    Ken's not totally clueless, but he's FAR from the "Guru" status he portrays and that's the whole rub to it; the guy with a tonic to ease an upset stomach saying it will cure ANY/ALL ailments, regrow limb's, lol. Yeah....

    As for buying via "wholesaler" of any form or fashion, come-on-now.... 
    So would you rather buy a property with TOTAL CLARITY of the #'s, who's getting paid what, when, how, why....
    ---- OR ----
    Buy a property via some yahoo that just says "it's a great deal" and gives LIMITED vision of the #'s, deal, who get's what, etc etc... 

    A LICENSED Realtor/Broker IS a LICENSED Real Estate Wholesaler!
    Think on that for a moment because it's the most accurate truth of it. 
    Do you think it's best to buy with a licensed, or UNlicensed person? Which has highest % to have lies, cheating, BS, scam etc in it????

    Fact is, a persons time/money is BEST served by finding that right fit Realtor/broker UNTIL you yourself become the professional, and are ready to spend all the $$$$ and time in building your real estate "machine" just like that licensed professional. 

    @James Hamling: Save the "guru" stuff for someone else. As I've told you before, I have never referred to myself as a "guru" or anything of the nature, but I suppose since you write (unreadably) more than you read, I understand your confusion.

    By the way, what is it about a "nobody" like me that threatens you so much? 
     You've put forth an awful lot of effort trying to discredit me (unsuccessfully) and we've never even met. Life must be soooo hard for you.

    I'm sending you a copy of "How To Win Friends and Influence People." Read that then we can be friends. Right?

    I don't have to say anything more. Your writing, if someone can get through it, speaks loudly enough for your (lack of) character to show.

    You couldn't read what I wrote, that's your response, a grade-school level insult similar to "well your a poopy poop-pants".... lol, ok.... Is there a language you prefer vs English? I can do French, German, Spanish or Afrikaans; let me know if have a preference to resolve "unreadably". 

    As for my character, well that's a simple one: I'm an Iron-Fist in a Velvet Glove. Rather happily so I might add.

    While you may not use the specific sentence "I am a Guru" Ken, you speak to and rather clearly work to convey that messaging to persons while at the same time CLEARLY have exceptionally low comprehension of a great majority of fundamentals and factors of real estate investment. Hence the earned disdain from myself. 

    Is disdain too "unreadably"? How about vexing? 

  • Real Estate Consultant · Cleveland · Member since 2020 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y

    In 10 years or so (doing 100s and 100s and 100s of deals) I have never purchased (maybe 3- 5) listed props, ALL off market. I also never used a realtor, (maybe 3- 5 times) . For the most part I the great deals are OFF market. Just go to the local RE meets or forums in the city you want to buy, deals everywhere. I get 5 a week at least sent to me. your Networth is your network. 

    All the best to everyone 

  • Melanie P.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Member since 2023 · 1k+ posts · 922 votes
    2y

    For once everyone in one of these threads is correct. There are deals on the MLS. Which is why you should be receiving an email every time there's a new listing or a change in price for each market you buy in. This also serves to keep you on top of market trends. There are also "off market" deals - both those you create yourself through lead generation and from wholesalers. Finding a seller willing to close Subject To is pretty rare in my experience. But it's just like the other two lead sources in that if you keep after them you'll eventually find one.

    I once experienced both in one stop. I'd gone to see a townhouse in a development I'd never walked. It was on the MLS, a hoarder house where the guy would get up at night and piss on the floor of his bedroom. He'd done it for so long that he'd stained the living room ceiling yellow... from the top down! The old man who owned it was a veteran and very EMBARRASED, as I get back downstairs I hear "sorry I didn't have time to straighten up." I walked over and shook his hand and said "sir, you have a BEAUTIFUL home here. I can see you're a collector and have accumulated some things over the years. I want you to know I really want this house and it would be an honor for me to restore it to its former glory." 4 bedroom 2.5 bath townhome 95k on MLS after $20k repairs worth $250k. He did get a couple above ask offers but took ours which was straight ask.

    Our very preppy personable broker couldn't get out of there fast enough. He likes to chit chat with neighbors while touring. Asks about the neighborhood, very good at getting people talking. He met a lady who was looking to sell in a few months. She let me come inside and see her unit. It's in excellent shape. I think we did flooring but it could have made it through one tenant. She asks nervously, "what do you think you could do for this I'll only know 10 days ahead of when I need to move?" I replied, "I just bought the one caddy corner to you for $95k, it is a four bedroom, yours has three what is fair to you knowing you won't have to pay any Realtor fees, clean anything, fix anything?" She goes into the living room with her husband, comes back and looks genuinely afraid to ask "is there any way you could do $90,000?" "Absolutely!!!" Wrote $90,000 when you are ready on the back of my card and put it on her fridge. She called about six weeks later and the deal was done.

    Real estate is fun. One stop, two deals = quarter million dollar profit in under an hour.

  • Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y
    "Save the "guru" stuff for someone else. As I've told you before, I have  never referred to myself as a "guru" or anything of the nature, . . . ."
    ===========================================================

    Meh, just how is advertising that you teach creative financing one-on-one (see your web site name) NOT in the "nature" of styling yourself as a "guru"?
  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @James Hamling:
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @James Hamling:
    Quote from @Account Closed:

    Here is a big pro tip:

    Stop buying on the MLS. It’s too expensive! There is a process called "Buying Off Market". Where do you think all of those properties on the MLS come from? They were "off market" until they were "discovered by an agent" and put on the MLS. Think of it this way, someone decides to sell their property, so they call a realtor who takes 6% (so they can get paid) and lists it on the MLS. When you find the property before it goes on the MLS, you can buy for 6% less. On a $400,000 house that's about a $24,000 savings. I do this all of the time.

    Then I use “Subject To”, which runs $15,000 to $20,000 to buy a property instead of putting 20% down ($80,000 on a $400,000 property), and a similar process called “Seller Financing” that gives way more than 1% monthly income.

    There are other ways called “SEO” and “Pay Per Click” and “Yard Signs” and so on to find properties.


    Ok, everyone ready for the REALITY-CHECK by an ACTUAL real-life Pro????

    Ken start's by hitting the nail-on-the-head, before running off into fantasy land.... 

    YES, the unspoken TRUTH of it all is that a MLS listing STARTED life as an OFF-MARKET deal that a REALTOR dug-up, discovered, ran down the rabbit hole of analysis, confirmation, negotiation, and MADE an ON-MARKET purchase opportunity.

    So kiddo's, let's stop there and put our thinking cap's on for a moment:
    If we want to MOST READILY/EASILY/CHEAPLY find OFF-MARKET purchase opportunities, which do we think that would be???? 

    (A) creating a complete system from 0, to source these potentials, build the websites, pay the PPC fee's, maybe some billboards, maybe some radio and tv spots, maybe pay a marketing team, then a coach to figure out how to do all the things, or burn $$$$ for a few years to sort it all out.
    ---- OR ----

    (B) Network with the REALTORS who already have done ALL that in (A), and have gotten dang-good at it, so good that they are weekly/daily sourcing potentials. And connect as a go-to buyer to "get-in-early" as a ready "pocket-buyer" they can simple serve these to on a silver platter.... NO expense, coach, ad expense or what-not required. 

    Hhhmmmmmmm....... I wonder which is most efficient/cheapest/quickest.... (it's called snark)

    Ok, now onto Ken's ridiculousness of fantasy land. 
    Just because it's off-market does NOT make the transaction FREE!
    Come on, COMMON SENSE. Closing cost's $, and a seller with half a wit is going to want some kind of representation to know this ya-ho saying there "A CA$H BUYER" isn't working to rip em off. That's REALITY. So maybe they use an agent, if there SMART they use an agent so not only do they get that protection in transaction process BUT also find out what other sale $ potential they have in market. But at minimum they are using a R.E. Attorney, unless there a complete idiot void of any common sense OR friends/family with common sense.     Those professionals cost-$. 

    Next, yes terms sales exist. I do terms sales literally EVERY month, I'd have to dig to find how many months in last 4/5 years I didn't have/do a terms sale. And that also shows how NOT special a terms sale is, they have been COMMON since the early 80's, so common that most Realtor/MLS associations have some standard templated approved contracts for these. No "Guru" needed.

    BUT.... Oh all the but's. As a REAL-LIFE Pro who does term sales all the flippin time AND sources off-market deals constantly, HERE IS THE REALITY OF THEM;    There is significant learning curve in discussing this with virtually any/all sellers. I have had literally 1 in recent years who readily knew what it was. Most are all but clueless what it is, and with that, very wisely, standoffish and scared of such an unknown that relates to hundreds of thousands of dollars.     So one must have the LEGITIMACY that invites/empowers it being a conversation vs a "NO, not interested". Than, it's a detailed conversation, often several, to help EDUCATE the seller of all the details to it, the "what-if's" and so on.     

    And after all that, it ONLY best applies to certain situations. If seller can readily get $400k at market, owes $125k, why would they do a terms sale? Why lock up the equity? Some will, but many won't, because for many, no, it doesn't make sense, many ARE better served getting ALL that equity in capital NOW to do the things they need/want/plan to do with it now. 

    And Sub-To is simply the single DUMBEST most DANGEROUS way to transact property BAR-NONE!

    And from there it's just Ken trying to sell his "Guru" program which still makes me chuckle that someone who so barely has a clue what he's doing himself is billing himself as the "Guru" so-yeah, lol. 
    Ken's not totally clueless, but he's FAR from the "Guru" status he portrays and that's the whole rub to it; the guy with a tonic to ease an upset stomach saying it will cure ANY/ALL ailments, regrow limb's, lol. Yeah....

    As for buying via "wholesaler" of any form or fashion, come-on-now.... 
    So would you rather buy a property with TOTAL CLARITY of the #'s, who's getting paid what, when, how, why....
    ---- OR ----
    Buy a property via some yahoo that just says "it's a great deal" and gives LIMITED vision of the #'s, deal, who get's what, etc etc... 

    A LICENSED Realtor/Broker IS a LICENSED Real Estate Wholesaler!
    Think on that for a moment because it's the most accurate truth of it. 
    Do you think it's best to buy with a licensed, or UNlicensed person? Which has highest % to have lies, cheating, BS, scam etc in it????

    Fact is, a persons time/money is BEST served by finding that right fit Realtor/broker UNTIL you yourself become the professional, and are ready to spend all the $$$$ and time in building your real estate "machine" just like that licensed professional. 

    @James Hamling: Save the "guru" stuff for someone else. As I've told you before, I have never referred to myself as a "guru" or anything of the nature, but I suppose since you write (unreadably) more than you read, I understand your confusion.

    By the way, what is it about a "nobody" like me that threatens you so much? 
     You've put forth an awful lot of effort trying to discredit me (unsuccessfully) and we've never even met. Life must be soooo hard for you.

    I'm sending you a copy of "How To Win Friends and Influence People." Read that then we can be friends. Right?

    I don't have to say anything more. Your writing, if someone can get through it, speaks loudly enough for your (lack of) character to show.

    You couldn't read what I wrote, that's your response, a grade-school level insult similar to "well your a poopy poop-pants".... lol, ok.... Is there a language you prefer vs English? I can do French, German, Spanish or Afrikaans; let me know if have a preference to resolve "unreadably". 

    As for my character, well that's a simple one: I'm an Iron-Fist in a Velvet Glove. Rather happily so I might add.

    While you may not use the specific sentence "I am a Guru" Ken, you speak to and rather clearly work to convey that messaging to persons while at the same time CLEARLY have exceptionally low comprehension of a great majority of fundamentals and factors of real estate investment. Hence the earned disdain from myself. 

    Is disdain too "unreadably"? How about vexing? 

    @James Hamling: Your comment: "If seller can readily get $400k at market, owes $125k, why would they do a terms sale?" They wouldn't. That's an absolutely absurd statement and actually an idiotic attempt at a straw man argument. It's clear you haven't taken the intellectually honest approach to the issue and asked what actually occurs.

    Fine, so you speak from ignorance (which means uneducated, unaware, or uninformed) for those of you lurkers out there who are confused on definitions. 

    Apparently the accredited investors we work with seem to be pretty happy with the "off market" results they get. We're proud of what they do.

    Tell me this though

    1. A widow who lives in a predominantly FHA neighborhood contacts you to list. Upon inspection you easily see it won't pass FHA requirements (do you even know what that means?) Do you list the property? Do you discount the listing price? Do you wave the real estate agent fees?

    2. Guy lost his job and has a foreclosure sale date in 30 days. You just found out about it because he called and he wants to list on the MLS. Do you list his property?

    3. Vacant property was turned into a crack house and it is a probate. Do you list the property?

    Do you list these or do you call an investor who is prepared to put in the effort to straighten things out?

    If you are a professional, it's hard to know if you are one at this point, but let's say if you are a professional, you turn down every one of those listings rather than tie them up for 6 months, because they just are not sellable on the MLS.

    Those sellers want to be on the MLS but their situations aren't what the MLS is designed for. And tying them up in a 6 month contract is criminal in those scenarios. IMHO. They can list it on the MLS for a $249 fee. You have added nothing to improve their situation. Investors can add value by solving their problem, quickly. I know it galls real estate agents, but the facts are, the market has changed. There is still room for agents and most people should use agents, but to say everyone has to use an agent is rather bizarre.

    The question originally asked implies, that the only difference between a good investor finding a property to buy and a good agent getting a listing is in who is knowledgeable and who will put in the work.

    NAR says there are about 1,580,000 members in 2022 (latest I could find)

    80% of those do little to no transactions - that's a huge failure rate-

    about 1,264,000 agents suck at their job.

    There is no other occupation that tolerates that high of a level of failure.

    You have to be crazy to have a real estate agent list your house.

    I can’t even get agents to return phone calls. What’s with that?

    Number of National Association of Realtors members in the United States from 2009 to 2022


     You are so clueless Ken it's nauseating! 

    I seriously don't know what your high on as you concoct the moronic replies you make, I don't. 

    Your examples of the "what if" potential listings show how inept and void of any real experience you are. 

    If someone calls me and is even just days away from foreclosure sherrif sale YES I am 100% ready and able to help them. Because I, a real estate Broker, can call that bank, say were in listing contract, put this on hold for ____ days and I will have it live on MLS and get it sold and gone to cover things, and guess what the bank does, they work with me because I am legit and with a rock-star track record of getting s#it done.

    And that's a COMMON thing, I'm not some rare anomaly on that. So if you actually had half the experience or knowledge you PRETEND to have, you'd know that banks OFTEN work with real estate professionals in this way. 

    The next, your moronic statement of a FHA "neighborhood" and if a property can't pass FHA inspection.... What if the flock are you talking about? Seriously, what are you on kid? So your telling me in your mind certain neighborhoods must do a specific financing or it's just what, trash? Do you comprehend the kind of prejudice in housing your inferring here? There is federal regulation against it buddy.

    Now, since I actually AM a Pro, I am aware of the FHA programs for homes that need repairs. Yes, an FHA buyer can get purchase AND reno to make it pass FHA all in 1 same financing. And I know the mortgage brokers, so yes I could readily help them on listing too and it would not be an issue at all.

    All these excuses you invent where it "must go to an investor" is just out-right BS and ignorant as all heck. I have 2nd yr agents who know this stuff your oblivious on. 

    Just kick-rocks kid, it's just too much with your arrogant ignorance.... 

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @John Clark:
    "Save the "guru" stuff for someone else. As I've told you before, I have  never referred to myself as a "guru" or anything of the nature, . . . ."
    ===========================================================

    Meh, just how is advertising that you teach creative financing one-on-one (see your web site name) NOT in the "nature" of styling yourself as a "guru"?
  • Rental Property Investor · Bow, NH · Member since 2016 · 216 posts · 185 votes
    2y

    @Ken M.

    I disagree with your statement about over paying for deals on the MLS. Full disclosure I have no dog in the fight of realtor/ whole saler /etc. I'll buy from anyone if the deal is right.

    I have had success buying distressed properties on the mls that scare off other buyers. For example I bought a duplex earlier this year that had a tenant who hadn't paid rent in a year, wouldn't allow access to her apt for showings and all utilities were in the basement accessed by her apt.

    I got this place for pennies on the dollar. Had her out in 13 days with cash for keys and completely gutted it to the studs placed quality tenants and pulled my entire investment out in 8 months. It now cashflows $800 a mo and I have no money left in the deal. I am working to close a similar deal sourced by the mls as I type this.

    Deals do exist , quite abundantly for those willing to work. I would agree "turn key" deals on the mls are few and far between.

    Sorry for any spelling and / or grammatical errors in advance!

  • Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    2y

    I got a great deal off of the MLS recently. Originally listed for $3M and we ended up getting it for $1.1M. You don't have to pay list price you know, you can negotiate and create a great deal even if list price isn't a great deal.

  • Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    2y

    We're seeing a big shift on MLS-listed properties now compared to the peak a few years ago: much higher DOM for certain properties, much higher inventory in certain market segments, more price adjustments etc. lot of deals on the MLS these days because buyers aren't active at all, while some sellers still think it's 2022, they're getting greedy and listing way too high then don't adjust quickly enough when they have zero showings or offers, and let the listing get stale, then eventually cave when all they've got in hand is a blood-sucking offer from someone like us ;). I've seen people make some terrible off market deals recently also that they thought were good deals just because they were off market and they didn't really know how to run comps or anything else they should know. One couple I know thought they were smart not using agents to save $60k but overpaid by $500k, true story. Bottom line is knowing the market that you're working in and knowing how to negotiate is more important than whether a property is on or off the MLS. Good deals can be made anywhere and they're usually made, not found.

  • Real Estate Broker · Kansas City Metro · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    You can also get a referral to a real estate agent/broker that truly specializes in off market deals. The only way for you to know if they truly specialize in off market is to have them provide you a list of last 5 off market transactions and the transaction date. It is a fair question that any agent should not be afraid to answer. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @James Hamling:
    Quote from @John Clark:
    "Save the "guru" stuff for someone else. As I've told you before, I have  never referred to myself as a "guru" or anything of the nature, . . . ."
    ===========================================================

    Meh, just how is advertising that you teach creative financing one-on-one (see your web site name) NOT in the "nature" of styling yourself as a "guru"?

    Off the top of my head, places to find leads, other than the MLS include

    1. Expireds
    2. Vacants
    3. Affinity groups
    4. Probates
    5. Bandit Signs
    6. Friends & associates
    7. Wholesalers
    8. Foreclosures
    9. Tax liens
    10. Transitioning neighborhoods
    11. Turnkeys
    12. Door knocking
    13. Direct Mail
    14. Out of State Absentees
    15. Facebook
    16. IG
    17. Teaming up with another investor

    These are not on the MLS.

    Since most people are willing to pay full price for a property, the list is endless. They just aren't working at it.

    They need help.

    We provide that help.

    This reads like a list from 2010.... Bandit signs, lol, come on really.... 

    Hey @Jerryll Noorden whada'ya think, Bandit signs, lmao.... 

    Look, technically speaking Ken isn't wrong, one "can", in theory, use FUNERALS as a source for off-market deals, right. "Hey, anyone know if the deceased had a home?".... 

    Or, there is just walking down a random street with a bullhorn shouting "I buy homes, I BUY HOMES, anyone ready to sell" and if ya do it enough, say 43,729 hours, ya might find a "deal". 

    But what Ken COMPLETELY misses is the reality and fact of EFFICENCY, what actions/output EFFECTIVELY and EFFICENTLY will lead to off-market-deals....... 

    This should be a simple SIMPLE "Duh" moment for most if not all, because it's all about web OR connecting with the person who is doing the things that get's these to give to you. It's just that simple. Everyone does everything WITH the internet and search now.     

    People don't wait to see some random sign on side of road and go "Oh, hey, well look at that, they buy homes, well s#it, I guess we gotta sell the farm honey, call em up!" nope, doesn't happen. 

    What DOES happen is people have whatever situation, think about maybe selling for whatever reason, and they go to the source of answers, the internet, conveniently in EVERYONES hand today, they google it. And, who/what ever first looks most legitimate to helping answer there woe, they click.    If that site is done right, they click again, maybe input info, maybe call, and a lead is born.... 

    Foreclosures are NOT "off-market" anymore because there's only about a bazillion, INCLUDING BP, who list these "opportunities". Same with tax liens. 

    Hell Ken, why didn't you just say the white pages, it would be just as efficient as most of what you listed, just call EVERYONE right. 

    Not to mention, you listed a MLS listing "expired" as a good source of off-market, lol.

    Seriously man, come on now, trying to flipping brand yourself a "Guru" asking people to pay $ for this kind of "tips" and "coaching".... 

    And I'll lastly say Wholesalers is NOT off-market, it's "OTHER" market. There pumping to get maximum $ pitting buyers against buyers but with LESS clarity than MLS.

    Why don't ya just tell people to do zeppelin marketing while at it, maybe air-drop leaflet's.... 

  • Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

     You do realize that you just suggested another “tip” for Ken to sell, right?

  • Real Estate Broker · Coppell, TX · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Alex Olson:

    You can also get a referral to a real estate agent/broker that truly specializes in off market 

    That's exactly what I ask all the guru investors that call me.  Give me the last 3 addresses of homes you closed on....the response from 99%.....silence.  They're never going to do a deal.
  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Bruce Lynn:
    Quote from @Alex Olson:

    You can also get a referral to a real estate agent/broker that truly specializes in off market 

    That's exactly what I ask all the guru investors that call me.  Give me the last 3 addresses of homes you closed on....the response from 99%.....silence.  They're never going to do a deal.

    Your comment: "They're never going to do a deal." That is a correct statement. most never do. They join a popular "guru's" "community" that frankly teaches some very dangerous concepts, so let's be thankful they are mostly unsuccessful. 

    It would hurt a lot of sellers, if the "wannabe investors" followed the "no money down" deception that's taught. But, it makes the "guru" rich telling people it's simple and cheap. It attracts a lot (4,000 at last count) of students. They can not pay off the note in the event of a DOS and most can't even afford the monthly payment of the loan they are supposed to take over. Once they have a vacancy or capital repair, they are toast. The deal fails and serious events start.

    It is neither simple nor cheap. And it only fits very specific opportunities. Sitting too long on the MLS is not one of those specific events.

    By stark contrast, My accredited investors doing Subject To are mature, responsible investors with sufficient capital. They are personally trained, "one on one" not groupthink. And they follow the rules, use escrow and record the Warranty Deed. They can pay off the note in the event of a DOS. That's part of our entry requirement.

    You can click on my website link below and see a whole slew of Subject Tos we've done.
    I'd be happy to answer any questions


    For Pete's sake Ken STOP TWISTING THINGS.... 

    Bruce said: 
    "That's exactly what I ask all the guru investors that call me. Give me the last 3 addresses of homes you closed on....the response from 99%.....silence. They're never going to do a deal."

    Bruce was referencing the GURU's not the wanna-b's buying the Guru-BS. 

    I am beginning to wonder if Ken's day job is maybe something of news director at CNN.... 

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