Buy and Hold, Does It Really Make Sense?

Buy and Hold, Does It Really Make Sense?

Residential Real Estate Broker · Riverside, CA · Member since 2014 · 82 posts · 121 votes

I was once a buy and hold investor. Then one day, my light was turned off by the power company, in the house I lived in.

How could that happen? I had 40 houses, but I was always robbing Peter to pay Paul. Edison, the power company was Peter, so once they caught up with my tricks, my light was shut off.
I was frustrated and very broke. Then one day I attended Ron Legrand's seminar and he spoke about quick flips.
His presentation was so good, I paid to follow him to Las Vegas to hear more.

Since then, I have quick flipped over 400 houses.

So each time I hear new investors talking about buy and hold, I feel real bad. Today I ask myself, why would anyone buy and hold?

I once hired an assitant who is a real estate agent. During the interview, she told me she was an investor. Then I asked her, how many properties she had. She stated that she had three properties, one of them she had owned for over 12 years.

Then I asked her. "How much money are you making? She said Nothing, the rentals were barely breaking even and one was vacant.
Then I asked, "how much have you made in 12 years? Nothing she stated.

So the question is, does buy and hold strategy work for new or veteran investors?

This is a debate that everyone should contribute to?

Should you buy and hold? What if you are cash flowing a few hundred dollars a month?

Let's do the math. I buy a property with no money down. I flipped it in 90 days and made $40,000
You are a buy and hold investor, you buy a property, rent it out and you have a cash flow of $150 per month after paying your mortgage.

How long will it take you to accumulate $40,000? The correct answer is 266 months or 22 years.
So do you want to wait 22 years to make $40, 000?  or do you want to make the money now so you can accumulate enough $40,000 to actually pay cash for a few deals in a few years and then think about buying and holding? 

Which leads me to the one reason why buy and hold can make some sense.

If you are retired, you don't want to earn the peanuts interest paid by banks. It may make sense to buy a property cash, rent it out and get above average return on your money.

Another way it makes sense is if you are buying units and can buy enough and get to a cash flow that can replace your current income.

So let's hear from newbies and veterans, does it really make sense to buy and hold?

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Real Estate Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2014 · 229 posts · 171 votes
11y

This seems more like a subtle advertisement than an actual analysis of buy and hold.   

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Chad Clanton

      being right there in san antone I would suspect your familiar with the company

  • Contractor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2013 · 647 posts · 205 votes
    11y

    @Jay Hinrichs   Lol only with what I've found since the whole debacle began, but that was more than enough for me. I mostly leave it be anymore, unless I just trip across it like now.

  • Beachwood, OH · Member since 2015 · 22 posts · 17 votes
    11y

    Instead of"Buy and hold or flip" why not "Buy and hold and flip."

    I agree with the comments that flipping is a way to earn income and holding is a way to earn wealth.  The problem for holders is that the wealth creation curve of their buy and hold properties is not linear.    For example:  A new roof on a home has a life span of 30 years in most areas.  However the depreciation of that roof is not actually a straight line.  A home needs a roof and a home with a good looking roof that is five years old is not worth any less than a home with a brand new roof.   After 20 years, you really start to see some aging to the roof and buyers begin to calculate the cost of replacing the roof.  Thus, the actual depreciation of the roof is relatively flat for the first 20 years and then gets really gets steep after 20 years.   If you buy and hold that property long enough to pay off your 30 year mortgage you will put a roof on it and that cost will eat up a big part of the equity you gain as your tenants pay off the mortgage.  Multiply that by paint, garage, driveway furnaces etc and your actual depreciation and maintenance in a property held for a long time is very high. Without significant price appreciation it is very hard to make money over time in this scenario.

    My solution:

    1. If you are local and have the interest and capacity:

    Buy properties that need total rehab to get the best prices. Fully renovate to create maintenance free rental properties. Rent them out to the best tenants for the best rents for 3-5 years, then sell to other investors looking for turnkey properties. Do all this using a 1031 exchange or operate in a self funded IRA to avoid taxes.

    2.  If you are out of state or international:

    Buy the above property either newly rehabbed or after 5 years with a great tenant in place. Enjoy the cash flow for another 5 years then sell using a 1031 or hold the property in an IRA to avoid taxes.

    I believe in buy and hold.  I also know that very few investors factor in the cost of the actual depreciation of their properties and this leads to some nasty surprises down the road.  I believe my approach solves that problem for buy and hold investors.

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y

    @Laird WynnAnd/or, you can "rinse and repeat" rehabbing those same properties that you already own! Cheers...

  • Bedford, NH · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    I was able to financially retire on buy and holds, so I do think buys and holds are worth it:)

     Incredible.  Joe Pickett rejoins the thread with his fourth account.

  • Bedford, NH · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Richard C.:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    I was able to financially retire on buy and holds, so I do think buys and holds are worth it:)

     Incredible.  Joe Pickett rejoins the thread with his fourth account.

     That Richard K is a handsome fellow.  Almost as handsome as Richard C.  So handsome, in fact, that a San Francisco photographer has used him as a model for a stock image (entitled, "Professional Portrait of Business Person.")  

    Did you pay Eric C. Gould for this image, Joe?

  • Real Estate Broker · North Richland Hills, TX · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 607 votes
    11y

    I'm more focused on flips right now to replace my former job's income, but make no mistake, it just replaces one job w/ another job.   As soon as I can afford to do so, I'd like to put a tenant in place and hold the flips for at least a year so I can get cap gains tax treatment.

    Currently all of my RE funds are passively invested in apartments.    Once I get about $1M invested here, I can just live off the distributions, which will continue to rise over time as the properties gain value.   I'd probably still invest actively, but at a slower pace, only to the extent that I can keep it fun and low stress.

  • Investor · Mission, TX · Member since 2014 · 117 posts · 40 votes
    11y

    I am completely appalled by the prospect of purchasing a run down fixer upper, fixing it up and then selling it. But that is the beauty of REI, different strokes for different folks. I am a buy and hold type of guy. Give me cash flow that incrementally increases each year and appreciation. For me it is about net worth. An extra 40K is cumbersome, and not pertinent to my long term goals. Great post.

  • Investor · Bellingham, WA · Member since 2010 · 308 posts · 230 votes
    11y

    Was just laughing with a client this week about how every long term successful real estate investor we know would have Never Sell! engraved on their tombstone as we traded stories about our respective mentors.

    I never liked the term flipper because it was a derogatory label popularized by the media to stir up controversy. I prefer to call it what it is (and what the company I founded and sold did) which is spec remodeling. Just like a spec builder who buys a lot, builds a home then tries to sell it for more than it cost, a spec remodeler does the same thing with an existing house. The principle is the same; create value that hopefully someone will pay for at the end.

    That said spec remodeling is a job unless you're in the business of owning a construction company. A business as defined by Michael E. Gerber in The E-Myth Revisited: Why Most Small Businesses Don't Work and What to Do About It  (on Amazon http://amzn.to/1Bs4HEh) is one where you as the owner doesn't work in the business but on the business and they can't take extend periods away from the business and they nor the business not suffer financially. A job on the other hand can be high paying but if you don't show up for work there's no income; think of doctors and lawyers and contractors/spec remodelers who are swinging hammers and running projects day-to-day.

    But either as a business or as a job spec remodeling is not an investment. An investment implies that you're putting up money in hopes of a return instead of your labor. Granted there are very few pure plays either way; investments with no work or jobs with no investment but by primarily putting your money instead of yourself up for work you free your time up for other things. One thing could be doing more investment deals. Another thing could be doing spec remodels to build up capital as many have posted about.

    In the end though the goal is to accumulate enough wealth to create financial and time freedom. That means building a portfolio of assets that work on their own without you having to run abound spinning plates and keeping the balls in the air everyday. Many people have found that income producing properties professionally managed fit that bill quite nicely.

    And it's not just me, Trammell Crow said (and if you don't know he was...)

    You can get rich selling [or flipping] real estate, but you can only get wealthy by owning it. 

    Good hunting-

  • Investor · Albany, GA · Member since 2014 · 70 posts · 8 votes
    11y

    This thread has given me a lot to think about. Thanks to everyone who has posted.

  • Largo, FL · Member since 2016 · 94 posts · 20 votes
    10y

    I will use the buy and hold strategy to then refinance or sell after five years; the strategy is effective with individuals that have a free and clear title. 

    The concept work exceptionally well with seller financing. I suggest that you search the blog or podcast that Brandon Turner discusses on the advantages of seller financing. 

    I plan to do this through Strongbrook -- a vetted company with a built-in team of real estate investors and that you can purchase their properties using time and money leveraging strategies for growth equity or cash flow which is then duplicated during cycles in real estate that reflect the activity.

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2010 · 739 posts · 372 votes
    10y

    ^ strong bump my friend.  Thread is a year old

    I'd rather have $40k/mo passively steady then $40k on a flip here and there

  • Oklahoma City, OK · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    I hope it is not too late to join this. I did the maths, and I wanna agree with the original poster. I think buy and hold works well for PASSIVE investors.  Also if you have a 30 year mortgage, how long are you gonna live to start to enjoy your passive income assuming the rent pays off the mortgage. Afterall that is the biggest advantage of buy and hold, the ability to leverage.

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