Crazy deals in Dallas and why the traditional formulas don't work

Crazy deals in Dallas and why the traditional formulas don't work

Specialist · Austin, TX · Member since 2014 · 109 posts · 95 votes

I know people often post deals they have closed or are currently reviewing. I thought I’d post a deal I didn’t get just to show how competitive the market is here in Dallas. Those in the Dallas / Fort Worth area and other hot markets will probably have witnessed this many times. For those of you having trouble finding deals, this is why!

This lead came through a probate mailing. The executor told me over the phone she had already received a cash offer of $200,000 for the house, which had an ARV of $230,000. I told her she should run with that as there was no way I could go higher, even though I hadn't seen it yet.

I did, however, mail her a follow up letter thanking her for her time and asking her to contact me if anything changed. That letter was returned as I accidentally sent it to the wrong address. But, I sent it again to the correct address, and a few weeks later she called me.

She said the other offer fell through at closing. Apparently the investor-buyer went on his honeymoon, stayed too long, and then came back and his “funding had fallen through.” Sounds like there’s an interesting story there.

I looked at the property with her Friday morning. There was another investor coming to look that afternoon. The house was a typical 3/2/2 with only one owner ever, located in the Brookhaven Country Club subdivision in North Dallas, which is popular.

Here’s why the “traditional” formulas most investors have learned don’t work in a hot market, especially in a place like Dallas. I know this will be familiar to many, but I thought I’d share for those who are wondering what the heck is going on.

This is a flip property, not a rental. Rent rates are around $1600-$1700 per month for the area depending on the house and square footage. Even if you paid all cash, with closing costs and rehab, that’s only maybe a 4% annual return, so I would classify it as a pure flip. No way it would cash flow if you had to use financing.

Here are the numbers according to the traditional formulas for flippers and wholesalers:

ARV: $230,000
70% of ARV: $161,000
Minus renovations: $30,000 ($25-$35K depending on the flipper)
Minus desired wholesale fee: $5,000
Maximum I should offer on this property according to the regular formula: $126,000

I offered $170,000, and I was actually pretty confident I could wholesale it for around $174,000. I was outbid by the other investor offering $180,000. He actually made that offer sight unseen, and confirmed it when he toured the house Friday. I can only assume he planned to wholesale it or flip it himself.

At $180,000, that means this house was purchased for about 91%ARV minus repairs (not including closing costs), well above the formulaic 70%ARV minus repairs. I could never make this work for me, but obviously others can. And of course the first guy whose contract fell through offered 100%ARV minus repairs.

I don't know if there's really a moral to the story. I just thought it illustrated our current environment in Dallas pretty well. I've had similar situations in other deals I've lost, but this one just seemed like the perfect example. I'd be interested in hearing others' experiences with ARV numbers. I know buy-and-hold investors are paying that much, but it seems crazy for a flip.

Best of luck to everyone trying to find deals!

Chad

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Investor · Corpus Christi, TX · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
11y

My attorney taught me something very early on....no deal is always better than a bad deal.  Bad deals tend to cost heavily on one's time, money and emotions.

And I'd rather spend a week at the beach and not make money than 2 months dealing with rehab and not make money. 

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Flipper/Rehabber · Bakersfield, CA · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    Chad

    The error in your thinking is determining arv over as is and also marketing is king.  

    The more you market the less issues you have.  

    Austin, Houston and Dallas are hot and everyone should be hitting it hard.  

    I think there's about 250,000 prospects.  

  • Investor · Boyd, TX · Member since 2014 · 688 posts · 467 votes
    11y

    If this is happening very often, then I would begin to expect we are approaching another bubble popping point.  So far there are still some fair buy and hold prospects in my area, but the deals are long gone.  I might have missed out on one but I should know in a couple days if the current contract falls through.  If I do get it I will have a nice summer full gut rehab then rent project.

  • Investor · Canton, GA · Member since 2014 · 728 posts · 500 votes
    11y
    Paul Ewing I would agree with you except the issue here is lack of inventory, but plenty of people still trying to move here. I am about to put my residence in the market in Denton and have seen the comps selling fast and at high prices. We are in the middle of painting and scraping the popcorn at our house now. Funny how my personal homes look the best as we are selling them. Se la vie.
  • Investor · Corpus Christi, TX · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Chad Benedict

    Welcome to Texas and a frenzied real estate market. Don't worry too much...as soon as the next correction occurs, those who purchased based on very thin margins, or worse yet, appreciation, will be gone in a flash. Saw it happen before and it'll surely happen again. Stick to tried and true formulas and strategies and allow the speculators to weed themselves out through attrition.  

  • Specialist · Austin, TX · Member since 2014 · 109 posts · 95 votes
    11y

    @Michael Quarles I agree here in Dallas it's still just a matter of low inventory rather than a bubble -- so far. I think the institutional investors (hedge funds) are having an outsized effect on the market, and that's a bubble of some sort that will stop eventually.

  • Investor · Boyd, TX · Member since 2014 · 688 posts · 467 votes
    11y

    That is one reason I am going slow and only buying things that I can hold long term at a nice cash flow.  I have seen some interesting things that may work as flips if I wanted a job doing remodels but I am not so interested in getting into too many of them while I have a full time job.  So they would need to be extra good deals to allow me to pay someone else to do the rehab.

  • Herndon, VA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 324 votes
    11y

    I think what happens in a hot market is the investor often gets bailed out by rapid appreciation.  While they may purchase around 90% of renovated value - they could well be under 85% with increased property value after a 5 to 6 month flip.  

    I don't think the model is sustainable, but it could explain how flippers could be making money on deals where the numbers are very tight.

  • Specialist · Austin, TX · Member since 2014 · 109 posts · 95 votes
    11y

    I think some of them are just trying to keep their crews busy, too, while inventory is so low. Better a really tight flip than no flip.

  • Investor · DFW, TX · Member since 2013 · 319 posts · 101 votes
    11y

    You are assuming the other investor is making money on the transaction. They may very well think they are, but could easily be ignoring holding costs, etc.

    In a frothy market, it's important to educate sellers to screen their buyers. Just because you can get a contract at a certain number does not mean that deal will close - as seen in your example with the "cash" offer that fell through due to financing (say what?)

    The foam on top may look appealing, but the substance is maybe hidden a bit lower in the glass ;)

  • Investor · Corpus Christi, TX · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    My attorney taught me something very early on....no deal is always better than a bad deal.  Bad deals tend to cost heavily on one's time, money and emotions.

    And I'd rather spend a week at the beach and not make money than 2 months dealing with rehab and not make money. 

  • Investor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2012 · 289 posts · 74 votes
    11y

    Guy, I feel your concern. I had a house last month on Alpha built in 1956, 2300 sf, 4/2. The Arv was $370,000 and hadn't been touched since it was built. It needed an extensive rehab. I offered her $90,000 less than my competition and believe me I was being generous. I told her to take the money that was offered. There's no way I was going to set my end buyer up for a losing proposition.  I've been on the other end while rehabbing and run short on funds, it isn't fun.  I like your line, "No deal is always better than a bad deal."

  • Investor · Saint Johns, FL · Member since 2015 · 141 posts · 100 votes
    11y

    Great thread. People/investors get emotional about deals and we all know what happens then. No bueno. 

    You want to get your buyers or renters emotional about your property, not other way around. Sometimes it's the best to walk away and go to the beach as Guy stated.

    I heard in my area that flippers make $5-10k on a $150k flip. In my mind that is way risky, anything goes wrong, you're screwed. Been there, done that...thanks but no thanks!

  • Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    11y

    170K for a 4K profit? Nuts! Investors are far better off doing nothing than speculating. If you can't make a good profit buying the property then walk away. Deals are few and far between and that is why you must stay patient. My personal opinion is: if I can get one or two great deals a year that is far better than four or five questionable deals. Great deals make money. Marginal deals can cost you a lot. Ignore bad investors or speculators and stick to making smart moves. In the end, you will survive and others will be long gone.

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 105 posts · 23 votes
    11y

    This market is too efficient for flipping or wholesaling from what I see. There are other avenues though. In Austin, new construction infill can still make great margins.  

  • Investor · Corpus Christi, TX · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Anthony Aguillard

    @Jan H.

    Emotional investors always lose. Early on in my investing career I made two emotion based real estate decisions and I lost a lot of money on both.  Numbers don't lie unless you fudge them.  Stick with the numbers and the deal will take care of itself.  Inject emotion and the the check writing never seems to end.

  • Rental Property Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2012 · 502 posts · 263 votes
    11y

    I am still finding some 70% deals through direct marketing in Dallas, but they are few and far between.

    I do agree with @Michael Quarles that marketing is king. The more you market the more good deals you will find. Sure in this market you will have extreme competition on a lot of them, but you will also find some where there is true motivation and no competition.

    I am looking forward to the next market correction to weed out some of the competition, but I am also enjoying wholesaling at high margins in the current feeding frenzy.

  • Investor · Roswell, GA · Member since 2008 · 231 posts · 104 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Chad Benedict:

    I think some of them are just trying to keep their crews busy, too, while inventory is so low. Better a really tight flip than no flip.

     I dont agree with this philosophy.  Real Estate is not a liquid asset, so having tight margins and depending on appreciation while being leveraged is a recipe for disaster.  I will just wait and try to buy it at the courthouse after they lose it.

    I would rather keep the money on the sidelines and be patient.  Its better to have no deal than a bad deal.  I stick to my guidelines on every deal evaluation and I probably turn down 90% of the ones that get presented to me.  So maybe I dont do as many flips as the next guy, but I can always dump a property if necessary without losing my shirt.  I look at things in terms of the "rainy day" scenario....

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    The interesting part of the DFW area is that many areas of high desirability are already correcting, but many investors aren't recognizing the signs. Last summer, in the uber hot areas of Richardson, you were looking at appreciation near 30%. Well, if you do the math, that was really a correction from the stagnation that occurred from 2008 - 2012. The recovery began in 2013, but it really hit its stride in Q2 2014. Those areas of Richardson typically run 6% annual appreciation. 6 x 5 years = 30%. Last summer properties were selling 10 - 15% above ARV. They are still going just as fast in those areas - well less than 30-days from list to contract, but they are no longer going above asking. In fact, if you are paying attention to which properties are investor purchased flips, you see a lot of price reductions. Since I know a lot of those investors purchased above safe price, I suspect a lot of people are seeing very slim margins and/or having to hold properties much longer than they had planned.

    I don't expect to see our inventory issues fixed any time soon, but prices are definitely correcting.

  • Lender · Greater LA/Orange County area, CA · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    There may be panic sellers but I caution all to never become a "panic buyer". 

    If you focus on learning how to market and sell, it's possible to get great deals in all market environments.

    Learn how to attract sellers who you can communicate with directly. 

    Once speaking directly and not through a proxy (or heaven forbid, some 'form driven' agent) I suggest focusing on the distribution of benefits, risks and the timing of these two beyond the sale. 

    Sitting out a market spike is also an acceptable choice. However, you'll never learn about dealmaking without talking to lots of principals. I started full time investing during the top of a wild market that rapidly tanked, going from one extreme to the other. Not sure that a hot market is such a bad thing.

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