Why Building/Developing is Better Than Flipping These Days

Why Building/Developing is Better Than Flipping These Days

Flipper/Rehabber · Emeryville, CA · Member since 2015 · 158 posts · 124 votes

Just thought I’d share some of my experiences with you all in the San Francisco market. The big, HUGE take-away that I’m getting from my experience over the last year and a half is that there is absolutely no money in flipping around here. Zip, zero, zilch. The market is so competitive that practically all the inventory is going at prices where we’d likely lose money. Now, before you say to yourself: “This doesn’t matter to me, I don’t operate near San Francisco!”, I have strong reasons to think that if you’re ever facing a similar market, that it will be very, very useful.

This was not something that I discovered solely because I was doing a deep dig on market inefficiencies, it’s something that happened because of the crazy situation we’re in here in the Bay Area. I’ve been a full-time flipper since about 2009-2010, so I missed the bubble when it happened. That meant that when the prices were rising like crazy in west Oakland, I was doing everything that I could to try and find ways to make money.

I was looking at tiny houses in west Oakland on a decent-sized lot, and wondering if there was room to expand. I crunched the numbers, and at the time 350-360 per square foot was about the top of the market. I did some quick math for new construction, and realized that I could build a brand new addition for about $200/square foot. Boom! Easy money.

Since that revelation what I’ve done is looked for small houses, on lots with room to build. If I can add on at $200/square foot in areas where the price per square foot is much more than that, it’s money in the bank. This has been incredibly helpful in helping me buy properties—the numbers don’t pencil for anyone else, but they do for me because I’m adding on.

With this success adding on, I’ve started developing, and have had some pretty fantastic results. The cost per square foot is a bit higher now with brand new development, usually around $250/square foot, but if you’re building 2000 square feet from scratch at a sale price of $400,000, you’ve got a potentially great deal.

The other part of this equation that I’ve left out so far is this: land prices haven’t caught up with the crazy housing prices. Commercial lots, yes. Large lots for housing developments, yes. But these smaller lots that can only host one to four houses/townhouses/units are much less in demand. I bought a lot in North Oakland for under $150K, and I’ll sell for $900K, with rehab costs of around $350K. That’s an insane return! It’ll take six or seven months, sure, but that’s a pretty great investment. It’s pretty crazy to me that these lot prices haven’t caught up with everything else yet.

I know that there are some downsides to the approach, including the time it takes to develop and the steep learning curve for those who don’t have a lot of experience with construction. But if you’ve got the gumption to take it, it’s a great opportunity in a super-hot market.

7Reply
129 views

Most Popular Reply

Investor · Saint Johns, FL · Member since 2015 · 141 posts · 100 votes
11y

@Juan Diaz, great insight, thank you for your ideas.

One thing is not clear though: You are saying that  if you're building 2000 sqf at $250/sqf, you have a great deal at the sale price of $400k? Would it not cost $500k just to build it? Am I missing something?

Question for you developers: does the $250/sqf figure include all plans, permitting, infrastructure-related cost (water, sewer, utilities etc.), building? Or is this figure just a construction cost?

I know a few smaller developers who buy old homes on the peninsula, demo them and build a new custom home. They make a killing on them, but could never figure out how to raise $1.5M-$2M to play in that game. Emphasis on 'couldn't ' as now I am figuring it out...;)

See this reply in the discussion

46 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Flipper/Rehabber · Emeryville, CA · Member since 2015 · 158 posts · 124 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Mandy Jay:

    @Juan Diaz: Have you thought of this ramp-up process: Buy a larger land (e.g., an acre). Get the plans for the maximum number of units approved (e.g., 20 units). Build and sell the units in smaller batches, e.g., 2 units, then 4 units, then 6, then 8. I assume the profit margin for a larger development is higher when the project is eventually completed.

     You still run into the problem of developing lots of units...securing piecemeal financing might reduce the financial load a little bit, but it might be offset by the synergy you could get from building everything at the same time. Would not want to tackle larger projects like this until we had the experience with the smaller ones, and then you might as well develop everything at the same time

  • Waterville, ME · Member since 2015 · 269 posts · 53 votes
    10y

    i am new here and just found this post. I am very interested in developing a piece of land I own. I own 5 ac. outright with a rough value of $42,000. It is located in a great town that new construction goes like hotcakes.  I believe last i knew, that there was little zoning, and that one can split up their land every so many years; so i could have two lots; or more if I hold and sell a pc every year that i can.  I am working on as to what might be my best avenue: build and hold four units for income; or split a piece of land, develop it and then sell it for a great Roi. I guess I am wondering what might be easier getting financing for? with no money down.

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 786 posts · 717 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Juan Diaz:

    Just thought I’d share some of my experiences with you all in the San Francisco market. The big, HUGE take-away that I’m getting from my experience over the last year and a half is that there is absolutely no money in flipping around here. Zip, zero, zilch. The market is so competitive that practically all the inventory is going at prices where we’d likely lose money. Now, before you say to yourself: “This doesn’t matter to me, I don’t operate near San Francisco!”, I have strong reasons to think that if you’re ever facing a similar market, that it will be very, very useful.

    This was not something that I discovered solely because I was doing a deep dig on market inefficiencies, it’s something that happened because of the crazy situation we’re in here in the Bay Area. I’ve been a full-time flipper since about 2009-2010, so I missed the bubble when it happened. That meant that when the prices were rising like crazy in west Oakland, I was doing everything that I could to try and find ways to make money.

    I was looking at tiny houses in west Oakland on a decent-sized lot, and wondering if there was room to expand. I crunched the numbers, and at the time 350-360 per square foot was about the top of the market. I did some quick math for new construction, and realized that I could build a brand new addition for about $200/square foot. Boom! Easy money.

    Since that revelation what I’ve done is looked for small houses, on lots with room to build. If I can add on at $200/square foot in areas where the price per square foot is much more than that, it’s money in the bank. This has been incredibly helpful in helping me buy properties—the numbers don’t pencil for anyone else, but they do for me because I’m adding on.

    With this success adding on, I’ve started developing, and have had some pretty fantastic results. The cost per square foot is a bit higher now with brand new development, usually around $250/square foot, but if you’re building 2000 square feet from scratch at a sale price of $400,000, you’ve got a potentially great deal.

    The other part of this equation that I’ve left out so far is this: land prices haven’t caught up with the crazy housing prices. Commercial lots, yes. Large lots for housing developments, yes. But these smaller lots that can only host one to four houses/townhouses/units are much less in demand. I bought a lot in North Oakland for under $150K, and I’ll sell for $900K, with rehab costs of around $350K. That’s an insane return! It’ll take six or seven months, sure, but that’s a pretty great investment. It’s pretty crazy to me that these lot prices haven’t caught up with everything else yet.

    I know that there are some downsides to the approach, including the time it takes to develop and the steep learning curve for those who don’t have a lot of experience with construction. But if you’ve got the gumption to take it, it’s a great opportunity in a super-hot market.

    Probably not as bad as california, but in Seattle I hear the same thing that flipping doesn't exist. Some very experienced investors told me that flipping in Seattle was like a unicorn.

    The general consensus is that you can not find the 70% of ARV minus construction costs.

    I have a very different perspective on flipping. In Seattle, we are finding deals that are so incredibly good that are lawyers are making us go back and give all the money back to the sellers.

    For example, in Seattle where flipping is a "unicorn" that does not exist, I picked up a deal that was at 12% of ARV. Everyone here says that doesn't exist but we found a couple home runs like that this year. But here is the crazy thing. In Seattle, they don't believe in capitalism and if you get "too good of a deal" it's called equity skimming. So our lawyers recommended we give the seller an additional $100,000 so we would be closer to 50% of ARV.

    How is this America? The banks pick up deals at 12% of ARV all the time but make it quasi-illegal for investors to do. But I hire great attorneys to advise us on things like this. And you think sellers are ecstatic when we come back and say "Hey let's give you another $100,000."

    So before thinking that flips don't exist, try a different mindset. How about doing 10x more action than every other investor out there?

    If other investors make 4 Offers on the MLS a week, then make 40 a week. If other investors send out a 1000 mailers a month, then send out 10,000 mailers. If other investors door-knock here and there, organize a door knocking army that canvases the neighborhood. If other investors network with a couple of wholesalers a week, call 20 wholesalers every day.

    It is really not that flips don't exist. It's more that you are not doing 10x what other people do.

    There is no easy way to do this business. I have been driving for dollars six hours a week for 10 years now. I have every ugly house on entire maps of streets for multiple neighborhoods. Do more. You can't go just buy list source or property radar. You got to go drive every block systematically.

  • Jo-Ann LapinPro Member
    Loan Officer · Tustin, CA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 713 votes
    10y

    Thanks for the share this is all good.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Emeryville, CA · Member since 2015 · 158 posts · 124 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Ryland Taniguchi:
    Originally posted by @Juan Diaz:
    Probably not as bad as california, but in Seattle I hear the same thing that flipping doesn't exist. Some very experienced investors told me that flipping in Seattle was like a unicorn.

    The general consensus is that you can not find the 70% of ARV minus construction costs.

    I have a very different perspective on flipping. In Seattle, we are finding deals that are so incredibly good that are lawyers are making us go back and give all the money back to the sellers.

    For example, in Seattle where flipping is a "unicorn" that does not exist, I picked up a deal that was at 12% of ARV. Everyone here says that doesn't exist but we found a couple home runs like that this year. But here is the crazy thing. In Seattle, they don't believe in capitalism and if you get "too good of a deal" it's called equity skimming. So our lawyers recommended we give the seller an additional $100,000 so we would be closer to 50% of ARV.

    How is this America? The banks pick up deals at 12% of ARV all the time but make it quasi-illegal for investors to do. But I hire great attorneys to advise us on things like this. And you think sellers are ecstatic when we come back and say "Hey let's give you another $100,000."

    So before thinking that flips don't exist, try a different mindset. How about doing 10x more action than every other investor out there?

    If other investors make 4 Offers on the MLS a week, then make 40 a week. If other investors send out a 1000 mailers a month, then send out 10,000 mailers. If other investors door-knock here and there, organize a door knocking army that canvases the neighborhood. If other investors network with a couple of wholesalers a week, call 20 wholesalers every day.

    It is really not that flips don't exist. It's more that you are not doing 10x what other people do.

    There is no easy way to do this business. I have been driving for dollars six hours a week for 10 years now. I have every ugly house on entire maps of streets for multiple neighborhoods. Do more. You can't go just buy list source or property radar. You got to go drive every block systematically.

     By no means do I want to imply that I'm not flipping while I'm developing. Quite the opposite actually. You can still find deals in the market, but it's easier (and more lucrative) to find deals ATM that are building from scratch. And of course, I'm doing your usual driving everywhere, handwriting letters, sending postcards etc. 

    I bought a house 20 days ago for $124K, and I'm pending today at $275K after doing nothing at all. It was great, and a nice find, but if I'm looking for something that gives me consistent results, in this market, it's far and away new construction.

  • Realtor · Fresno, CA · Member since 2013 · 471 posts · 225 votes
    10y

    I was just down at the city planing department discussing plans to subdivide and what type of density is allowed for the zone - then little by little the onion peels came unraveling as the city began to go over all of the different department i would need to check with - all the different fees involved at the various levels   of construction - and none of it was a guarantee that it would be approved without having to dump thousands of more dollars into the project. I knew going in that there would be several obstacles - but didn't realize the scope of them - I found it to be very educational and am still working on said project to try to see what the costs are actually going to be and if it is still worth it - it is a developer / contractor who is looking into it and I am helping him locate suitable properties and learning about the challenges of developing at the same time. 

  • REI · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2015 · 8 posts · 0 votes
    10y

    @ Jay Orlauski, "subdivide" is a very good exit strategy. If the lot is big enough, and the city zoning is ok with it. Even you do not develop by yourself, just sell the lands. It is still very deal. 

  • REI · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2015 · 8 posts · 0 votes
    10y

    @Juan Diaz, I enjoy your post. Good thoughts. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Ryland Taniguchi  I bet you bought those deals pre foreclosure and your caught up in the equity skimming laws that were put in about 5 to 6 years ago.. I stopped doing pre foreclosure deals in WA for this very reason.. you get turned into the AG your toast

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 786 posts · 717 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Ryland Taniguchi  I bet you bought those deals pre foreclosure and your caught up in the equity skimming laws that were put in about 5 to 6 years ago.. I stopped doing pre foreclosure deals in WA for this very reason.. you get turned into the AG your toast

     This was actually not a pre-foreclosure. We stay away from pre-foreclosures with a 10 foot pole unless it was listed by another agent on the mls.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Ryland Taniguchi then why anti skimming law.. unless your a RE broker and its deemed an unconscionable profit.. so another agent has it listed you buy it on MLS and your attorney is worried about profit.. something does not add up there.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Ryland Taniguchi I can't tell you how many properteies I have bought off of MLS that had huge margins in them... especially In the Timber land I buy...

    listed by local realtor for 80k as a building lot and I take 300k in timber off of it then turn around and sell it for 100k because I put a road pad and got it perked..

    all in 90 days.... Timber in the northwest can be uber profitable if you know what your doing.

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 786 posts · 717 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Ryland Taniguchi then why anti skimming law.. unless your a RE broker and its deemed an unconscionable profit.. so another agent has it listed you buy it on MLS and your attorney is worried about profit.. something does not add up there.

     Someone behind on their taxes but not in pre-foreclosure.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Ryland Taniguchi that probably gets lumped into the distressed assets rules..

    your familiar no doubt with Joe Kaiser and the battle he had with WA AG.

    little different scenario... but still if your buying a property were the seller is desperate because they are going to lose it at tax sale and you snag it for pennies on the dollar of course you run the risk of someone coming back on you.

    but I still think if you bought it off of MLS and did not rep the seller ... I would stand pretty tall that your OK.. the listing agent now they may be at fault...

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 786 posts · 717 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Ryland Taniguchi that probably gets lumped into the distressed assets rules..

    your familiar no doubt with Joe Kaiser and the battle he had with WA AG.

    little different scenario... but still if your buying a property were the seller is desperate because they are going to lose it at tax sale and you snag it for pennies on the dollar of course you run the risk of someone coming back on you.

    but I still think if you bought it off of MLS and did not rep the seller ... I would stand pretty tall that your OK.. the listing agent now they may be at fault...

     Yes, the Washington Supreme Court recently ruled that they will interpret the "distress home consultant" definition LIBERALLY... 

    Could apply to anything pretty much.

    This turned into a cool deal because the seller is hitting a "home run" by doing a Joint Venture with us to keep the commercial building intact while getting it Rehabber with our cash AND build a 12-unit apartment next to it. The seller is going to make a killing on this deal.

    Which goes to show that if you always do the right thing in the best interests of the seller, you will never be in trouble with even LIBERAL laws... It's all about collaborating to find win-win in every negotiation.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Ryland Taniguchi little different story than your first post.. you made it sound like you were forced to do a JV other wise get nailed for unconceivable profit or equity skimming.

    Either way sounds like a big project hope it all works out

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 786 posts · 717 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Ryland Taniguchi little different story than your first post.. you made it sound like you were forced to do a JV other wise get nailed for unconceivable profit or equity skimming.

    Either way sounds like a big project hope it all works out

    When I first posted, I didn't even know this was zoned for mixed-use that would allows us to add a 12-unit apartment. I just found about it yesterday and so that made this deal A LOT better. We have our project manager and architect coordinating on it today.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Ryland Taniguchi  lemons into lemonade

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    I have not personally done any development, but it is something I would like to get into if/when I can figure out how to do it without losing my behind. My perspective from the outside looking in is that virtually ever developer I've ever known, and I've known several, tend to go bankrupt and/or dead broke every 8-10 years, every time the market turns down. True that they absolutely kill it for a few years before that happens, but that doesn't matter as it always seems to end in tears. 

    In fact, I've seen this second hand so much that I'm starting to think that seeing developers killing it is a sign that we are in the late part of the up cycle ... flippers kill it in the early phase, developers kill it in the later phase, then they get killed when the market turns down and the buy-n-hold guys like me pick up the pieces for pennies on the dollar. This to me seems to be the "RE circle of life" :-).

    I'd love to learn to do this with less risk (I suspect the answer is deep pockets and excellent timing) so that I can operate throughout the cycle, but I'm not quite there yet. I'd love to hear the take on how to do this from somebody who has survived several cycles doing it ... @Jay Hinrichs?

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @David Faulkner  first off I only borrow from my banker who I have been doing this for 22 years.. and if we get stuck with inventory like what happened in 08 I was able to term out the hangover inventory when the other developers who shopped for cheapest money but with big banks that just cut their throat ended up toast like you said.

    Plus its not all I do... is only about 20% of what I do... Now for me I tried the buy and hold I had 350 sfr's but I HATE those personally way to much work for me.. my next move into buy and hold will only be NNN or large multi with TRUE professional management.

    also I never get too far over my ski tips.. I am in 4 markets with no more than 8 to 10 going at anyone time.. .not like others that took as many loans as they can get.

    I just had a meeting with a guy yesterday one of the bigger flippers here in PDX is in major trouble.. guess what all his loans are HML at 12 to 18% one lender he owes 108k a month in payments.. that's just one.. so any hiccup and he is toast as you say.. and of course I am maneuvering to pick up a few crumbs and maybe finish some of these off.

    so diversify... and only borrow from someone who loves you !! that's my motto.

  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Ryland Taniguchi:

    Which goes to show that if you always do the right thing in the best interests of the seller, you will never be in trouble with even LIBERAL laws... It's all about collaborating to find win-win in every negotiation.

     That is not necessarily true in the most liberal states. My attorney likes to say no good deed goes unpunished. You would not believe some of the outrageous court rulings here in MD. 

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.