Boca Raton, FL · Member since 2015 · 135 posts · 132 votes
I know there are many people who like to get their feet wet with turnkey, but does anyone actually own ALL turnkeys? Does anyone own 30 turnkey properties?
Can anyone actually speak up that owns nothing but turnkey and has had a great experience?
I rarely hear from anyone who owns turnkeys other than the turnkey provider marketers, and of the people that do own them, it seems they only own 1-3. Is there a reason for this?
I want to believe turnkey is a great investment for busy professionals who have no desire to rehab/find deals/landlord/manage properties/deal with contractors etc....but why isn't it more common then?
I do also get concerned when I see proformas by turnkey providers that are only accounting for 5% vacancy (seems optimistic since just one month vacant should be 8.3%), 3-5% maintenance which seems low, absolutely no Capex inclusion etc.....
When you put regular numbers in to account for those things, it seems that many of the turnkeys aren't profitable...Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you make something, but just seems like 6-7% after you PROPERLY account for all possibilities and have a margin of safety.
I also don't buy the answer that people got involved with turnkeys and then realized they can go out on their own and do it....this makes no sense...if they are busy professionals and don't want to deal with the headaches of real estate, why all of a sudden after one turnkey experience they are starting their own empire?
So, again, anyone out there own ONLY turnkeys and have more than 10 of them?
As you expand your search or options of investing in Real Estate you may want to consider some alternatives to turn key SFR's s there is certainly more to the industry than just that model. And like a good stock portfolio you may want to diversify across the industry.
Some examples may include:
1. Investing in Debt IE a GREAT HML in your city that you can sit down an eye ball and or has impeccable rep . these investment can easily bring you 8 to 12% with little hassle factor actually once up and running probably the most passive of the bunch.
2. Crowdfunding portals... That are doing debt deals they have matured.. check out Realty Shares and Realty Mogul I know those folks personally and they are very diligent in what they bring to the investor.. go with the very simple fix and flip loans for safety and least exposure to market up and downs.
3. There are some really good Syndicators in the US>. And the sponsor is critical but once you get with one of them you can establish a very long term relationship.. etc.
4. Look at larger Multi with Professional institutional type management.
5. Class B Mobile Home parks.. don't go lower other wise your buying your own mini Ghetto.. I have owned 3 and I love these.
6. Find a really good local fix and flipper and fund their deals doing a JV this can be very rewarding financially of course just like picking a TK company caution must be taken.
7. If you have not already buy your own medical practice facility and rent it to the Group ! you know you will get rent !
And as you state there are plenty of ways to make money in RE... but you may want to spread your risk to a few different scenarios so you don't have all your eggs in one asset class. just some Saturday morning food for thought !
And even Reading @Jay Hinrichs post, I didn't take it to mean like that either... A little strange, or as you put it disturbing, that you were so offended by something that we were just having a general discussion about
Jay offers nothing but neutral and honest opinion, he did not say anything offensive to you
You make a great point Spencer, but I absolutely love when turnkey companies post numbers like that....they are doing quite a bit of financial sleight-of-hand by not including any vacancies, capital expenses, a tiny bit to maintenance....
It just makes it really easy to find out who are the honest turnkeys and who are the ones that are just insulting your intelligence by thinking you're going to fall for their ridiculous and unrealistic numbers
When I see a company post a pro forma like that I immediately disregard them and take them off my list of turnkeys to invest in because I know they are unrealistic and dishonest from the start
Kyle,
I think you may be missing the point, the turn-key providers that provide pro-forma's are trying to give a baseline of what to expect with the property. Yes. I do agree that many provide the most basic info, put up stellar numbers without regard to the details. I see this happen quite a bit with wholesalers who inflate FMV and under-estimate cost of repairs.
Many investors have their own formula's to work with already so any additional info they can obtain from local market experts will assist in their decision making process.
If you wish to see our turnkey pro forma, send me a private message and would be happy to share.
One last point, the good turnkey providers are NOT in the business of misleading their investors for short term gain. It's a strategic relationship that most want to keep for years.
I'm in a similar position as you -- physician with demanding hours, family, and decent income -- wanting to diversify my portfolio with real estate.
No way is turnkey passive! I've been through several turnkey purchase with some bigger pocket members and have seen the gamut of overly optimistic pro formas, horrendous rehab jobs, etc. Being an out-of-state investor, I felt like I was the lamb for these turnkey wolves. I flew out to see a couple of properties that were close to closing and saw multiple code violations and the poor quality rehabs that made me pull out of a deal. That costs time and money (flight, inspection, etc.).
After purchasing a TK property, you're faced with managing the property managers. Some are good and some are terrible. Right now, for my *two* properties, my PM is completely unresponsive. Unable to get a hold of him and he doesn't return my calls. So that's stressful.
At this point, I'm just keeping my two properties to diversify my portfolio. They are mildly cash flow negative, but they're more for appreciation. I personally can't imagine having a stable of dumpy midwest properties that won't appreciate and will be hard to offload.
** Now the converse is that I do have a couple of physician friends that have 5-10 TK properties and seem to be doing well. I think they are much less OCD than I am and have more trust in the TK companies and PMs.
I'm not sure how I am missing the point it seems pretty cut and dry, I understand that these turnkey companies are providing the most basic information but I am saying that a lot of them are being very manipulative and dishonest in terms of their expectations
In my opinion many turnkey providers are trying to take advantage that many investors interested in them have little experience in real estate and think that they won't properly run the numbers... Again that is not missing the point but it is sleight-of-hand making the investor think they are going to make more then they really will because they purposely do not account for many things....
With your pro forma, can you explain why you don't account at all for capital expenditures ? Are the turnkey providers trying to imply that you will never have to fix the roof or get a new HVAC, etc?
Why so little dedicated to maintenance, in my opinion that is being very optimistic why not leave a little bit more cushion?
What about flood insurance or other liability insurance, what about trash removal?
What about the possibility of turnkey providers overestimating rents in the area? Sure they may be collecting the current rent now but what happens when that tenant leaves in the year maybe they won't get that same rent... No buffer there they're constantly quoting the absolute top rental rates in the area..
A pro forma is supposed to be an estimation, is it not? So why in the world don't the pro forma's account for these costs??
Busy professionals like me understand that real estate is a great investment and you can make more money than the stock market down the road with more consistent returns.... That doesn't mean I am going to start doing all this crap myself even if I can get a few more percentages of return because my skill is better used treating patients and I make a lot more money doing that....so I would rather do my full-time job and invest in turn key real estate with the hopes of making a higher return than the stock market even if I have to give up a few percentages to avoid the hours of hassle and time that I don't have to try to find deals and manage everything myself.
That is why turnkey is so important to so many people, and it is so frustrating when people are not transparent or give honest feedback about them
Stay on it Kyle. You are asking the right questions. Its always great to see someone here with clarity about their time, earning power and investment goals. Turnkey has a place and is important for people like you. Turnkey operators can help you get into a good property in a good area for a good price. It's the decent PM over time that makes the turnkey work or not work. Most people can't say they've seen or had fabulous PM over time. You're not seeing a lot of PMs with 10 years or more of experience posting here. Many people who call me with properties to sell hate their PMs and many are bailing for that reason. I know very few people in my hometown or my investment farms that love their PM. Communication problems, bookkeeping problems, tenant issues and the dreaded repair cost issues and misunderstandings. How is that turnkey? The clients are happy if they think they are not being ripped off and if the PM keeps the unit rented most of the time. The bar is SO low for PM because the customer is desperate and vulnerable. Good PM is out there. But good PM doesn't make up for a crappy tenant pool. Which is something TK operators aren't really going to be transparent about. Buy the best properties in the best areas you can afford and that work for your purposes. The tenant pool matters A LOT when you are not self-managing.
Thank you for sharing Petra, I am so glad you found this thread because this is what I was alluding to from the beginning, The marketers constantly make you think that these are flawless investments and there are not enough people like yourself who actually have experience as an investor in them to give an honest opinion
And just like you and @Jay Hinrichs suggested, investors seem to more often than not end up with a really bad deal and are not happy which brings me back to my original post about why there are very few if any people who just solely invest in turnkeys
This is all I was trying to do from the beginning is get some honest feedback from real turn key investors and your story seems to be consistent with the majority that most are not happy and it is not what it is cracked up to be
And I agree with Jay, that I do believe there are good turnkey companies out there, but 99% of them are not....
And just like Jay does, I want to learn and have others learn that most of these turnkey companies are not being transparent and you have to ask a ton of questions and know what to look for to find these top few companies to work with
Petra can you please elaborate a little more on your experience? What did your current turnkey provider promise you in terms of rates of return , estimated vacancies maintenance , capital expenditures etc.?
Where did they go wrong? In your opinion what could have been done better or what do you wish you knew from the beginning before investing with these turnkey providers?
holy cow ... I did not read Kyles question or take it the way you did.. I think this is an investor who just had questions.
But if you want to talk to a top syndicator who is a regular on BP I can mention him
@brianburke you may want to contact his office ... you do need to be accredited for their deals as Leslie has stated.. same with most crowd funding deals. And Brian did a pod cast I believe and is a respected contributor to BP.
This is hilarious. Leslie accuses Kyle, Kyle doesn't know what Leslie is talking about, Jay wonders why Leslie is taking Kyle's comments so personally.
It was YOU Jay, not Kyle, that made the comment Leslie is objecting to:
"there is nothing harder than being a fledgling syndicator who has no one to talk to LOL.or like @Leslie Pappas Leslie who pops on with a helpful hand so now she has a existing relationship with you if you choose to contact her then she can expound on her deals"
People take it personally when say they are beginners and have no one to talk to. :)
Petra can you please elaborate a little more on your experience? What did your current turnkey provider promise you in terms of rates of return , estimated vacancies maintenance , capital expenditures etc.?
Where did they go wrong? In your opinion what could have been done better or what do you wish you knew from the beginning before investing with these turnkey providers?
I sought out a few TK operators that were active here on the forums. The pro formas gave cap rates of 12% with cash flows of $250. Vacancies and maintenance were 5%. Taxes and insurance were under quoted. No cap ex. Rents overestimated. After running the numbers through my own criteria, which I admit are aggressive (vac 8%, maint/capex 12%, etc.), the numbers were half of what was quoted.
I did decide to go with a few properties to "test the waters". I was assured the properties were in Class B neighborhoods and I did my best with Internet research, etc. I did get some photos of the rehab process and things looked good. Problems came up when my independent Home Inspector took a look and came up with a list of problems such as leaky pipes, bathrooms vented to living space, old hvac, etc. The measure of a good TK company is how they respond to these issues. One company was accommodating and said they fixed things, while another just canceled saying that there were too many issues to address. Always have an inspection contingency in your contract!
For the company that said they fixed things, I made a surprise visit with my home inspector close to closing and found things that they said they fixed, but it wasn't. When I approached the TK operator, he got defensive and then I promptly canceled. At the same time, I went to visit a few property management companies and found out that the properties I had contracts on were actually C class neighborhoods and they wouldn't be willing to manage them. Always ask a couple PM firms whether they'd manage the property you're interested in and how much rent they think is realistic.
In the end, I bought a couple properties off MLS and did some minor rehabs. They were near move-in ready. I know I didn't get the best 'deal' and am paying market, but I'd rather do a deal off MLS and do some minor rehabs myself than pay near market for a TK property with shoddy rehab.
How could TK providers improve? I expect pro formas that are 'close' to realistic. Be good with a rehab. The quality of the rehab dictates the tenant. Follow plumbing and electrical code! But in truth, TK providers are a business and they are trying to maximize profits. My radiologist friend is even having problems with the purported "best" TK operator in the country with a shoddy rehab. Finally, careful with a lot of the smooth talking bird dogs on the site. They get $4-6000 for every TK they close and may falsely represent properties as a result.
Thank you for sharing your experience Petra, it is again very consistent with my thoughts and not what the marketers would have you believe....
I know there are two types of turnkey properties, one where it is actually completely renovated , there is a tenant in place ,a property manager in place etc. The other kind is where you fund the entire rehab...which is not turnkey in my head
It seems like you did the latter, is that correct?
You gave some awesome recommendations though about the inspection contingency and asking other property managers in the area about your property
I was attempting to be helpful but it was not taken that way and I apologized.. !
Great thread though... nice to get real life busy surgeon's to engage and see things from their point of view.
That's the best part of the thread for me. The perspective of high income earners wanting to get into B&H and have it be truly passive. There's a part of me that thinks it really can't be done by TK sellers/rehabbers who also claim to do the PM. There's something not quite right there. Too many mark-ups, too much spin. The TK part of the investment, IMO, is buying a new or fully rehabbed property. You can find boots on the ground in out-of-area markets to find properties that meet your criteria and they can even manage a mini-rehab if needed. Your trusted PM takes over at that point and places tenants per your requirements. It's not that hard to find great agents to find great properties. It's not impossible to find honest, good PMs. I think it is impossible to roll all that into one provider that won't take any short-cuts.
Just because its turn key one should not vary from the procedures a good RE broker would follow to sell you a home.. IE full home inspection... Inspection addendum to be addressed by seller.. along with a re inspection to make sure work was done properly..
this is SOPs for any home buyer buying a home to live in .. Any competent realtor representing you will ask for advice you do these things..
Along with a home that is over 15 years old unless its obvious there is a new sewer line to the street.. One should get a sewer scope.. blocked up sewage is the number one killer to landlords.. Tenants are unhappy your unhappy the fix has to be done as an emergency.. much easier to do this at rehab and about half the cost then a emergency repair.
When we bought our rental pool we prophylactically replaced all sewer lines unless there was clear evidence of a new PVC line.
And the last person you want to count on or who would even have a clue as to the rehab etc is as Petra pointed out a west coast bird dog.. they just introduce its up to you to do proper due diligence and inspections.
Folks in our market get home inspection on the brand new homes I build.. I got a C of O on one on the Oregon coast yesterday buyers home inspector was there he caught about 20 nick nac things we took the day going through the punch list... It is not uncommon to have a punch list. So you don't want to come down hard on the rehabber.. you just want to get your inspection and give them the time to fix then reinspect
Petra can you please elaborate a little more on your experience? What did your current turnkey provider promise you in terms of rates of return , estimated vacancies maintenance , capital expenditures etc.?
Where did they go wrong? In your opinion what could have been done better or what do you wish you knew from the beginning before investing with these turnkey providers?
I sought out a few TK operators that were active here on the forums. The pro formas gave cap rates of 12% with cash flows of $250. Vacancies and maintenance were 5%. Taxes and insurance were under quoted. No cap ex. Rents overestimated. After running the numbers through my own criteria, which I admit are aggressive (vac 8%, maint/capex 12%, etc.), the numbers were half of what was quoted.
I did decide to go with a few properties to "test the waters". I was assured the properties were in Class B neighborhoods and I did my best with Internet research, etc. I did get some photos of the rehab process and things looked good. Problems came up when my independent Home Inspector took a look and came up with a list of problems such as leaky pipes, bathrooms vented to living space, old hvac, etc. The measure of a good TK company is how they respond to these issues. One company was accommodating and said they fixed things, while another just canceled saying that there were too many issues to address. Always have an inspection contingency in your contract!
For the company that said they fixed things, I made a surprise visit with my home inspector close to closing and found things that they said they fixed, but it wasn't. When I approached the TK operator, he got defensive and then I promptly canceled. At the same time, I went to visit a few property management companies and found out that the properties I had contracts on were actually C class neighborhoods and they wouldn't be willing to manage them. Always ask a couple PM firms whether they'd manage the property you're interested in and how much rent they think is realistic.
In the end, I bought a couple properties off MLS and did some minor rehabs. They were near move-in ready. I know I didn't get the best 'deal' and am paying market, but I'd rather do a deal off MLS and do some minor rehabs myself than pay near market for a TK property with shoddy rehab.
How could TK providers improve? I expect pro formas that are 'close' to realistic. Be good with a rehab. The quality of the rehab dictates the tenant. Follow plumbing and electrical code! But in truth, TK providers are a business and they are trying to maximize profits. My radiologist friend is even having problems with the purported "best" TK operator in the country with a shoddy rehab. Finally, careful with a lot of the smooth talking bird dogs on the site. They get $4-6000 for every TK they close and may falsely represent properties as a result.
Good luck!
Just wow and thank you for sharing your B&H experience so far. Also, I'm all for mentions of dealings you have with anyone you meet on this site that are less than honest or suspicious.
Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 73 posts · 49 votes
11y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
This is what I ended up doing in the end. Get a realtor. Find a near move-in home. Get an inspection. Find some contractors and 'rehab'. Get a PM. Definitely not passive, but hopefully more passive after the fact.
This is what I ended up doing in the end. Get a realtor. Find a near move-in home. Get an inspection. Find some contractors and 'rehab'. Get a PM. Definitely not passive, but hopefully more passive after the fact.
Petra,
One counterargument I've heard for why TK is better than this approach is that a TK company would have systems in place and is pushing such a high volume that they can get a below market value property and rehab it at a cost (and effort) which is much lower than what you could do on your own, out of state. Do you think that the price markups the TK provider will make (and the potentially lower quality of rehab and/or PM compared to finding one through a trusted local realtor) offset those supposed benefits?
Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
11y
A couple sources I can recommend for anyone looking out of area is esri tapestry and rentfaxpro. Esri has identified 67 unique segments of consumers/tenants in any given zip. You can compare locally and extrapolate. You will find multiple segments in nearly every zip. Rentfaxpro, gets into street level occupancy and vacancy duration as well as some critical PM averages. Good luck!
Investor · Singapore · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
11y
@Jay Hinrichs is spot on in all his posts. Like @Kyle ScholnickI too am a busy professional. I don't have time to rehab houses and make the extra margin. I look at RE (turnkey or otherwise) as just another part of my investment portfolio. In RE I diversify amongst debt, tax liens, cash flow turnkeys in midwest and appreciation plays in the Bay Area. But I also invest in Stocks, 401K mutual funds etc etc. My turnkeys have returned anywhere from 10% (bad year) to over 25% (good year) on a COC basis. But they do they do take more time and attention than other investments. I have a very good PM so that takes a lot of the load off but even then paperwork, insurance, taxes etc all eats up time. I think its been an interesting journey. I'm currently not buying more rentals but rather finding more passive investments (example is a syndicated apartment complex deal I am buying into) which may give similar returns without the time commitment.
Agreed. A TK provider can buy distressed properties and can rehab for cheaper.
The TK properties I had contracts on appraised for a few thousands over asking. So, not much different than sourcing a deal off MLS. At least I know what kind of rehab I'm getting off MLS.
I know the TK provider is making $30-40k off the flip since you can easily find out what they bought the distressed property for. They could do a better rehab job and take less off the top and I'd be a happy camper.
Real Estate Investor · Redwood City, CA · Member since 2012 · 272 posts · 399 votes
11y
Nice thread! I'll throw my 2 bits in since I have some experience here. I started off as the busy professional who lacked time and knowledge and became a turn key provider myself, albeit in a very modest sense by most standards. My business has all come from acquaintances, repeat buyers and referrals as I really don't market anything. Now I'm focusing mostly on fix and flip and wholesaling in my local market, with some out of state deals ongoing to a lesser extent than in the past.
I bought my first two investments properties in 2011 from a TK provider. This guy was Bay Area based like I am, but was running his TK business in Dallas-Fort Worth where he had built his own sizable portfolio over many years. After a significant amount of DD I decided to buy two properties from him. Decent enough guy/operation and it has worked out fine. But immediately after buying I figured, "I don't need this guy". So I started networking and buying and fixing my own in DFW for buy and hold . I did the same thing in the Atlanta Metro in 2012. I was working a full time job and managing 16 doors locally for in-laws at the same time. So I started out as the busy professional who just wanted to diversify and buy some real estate, but since I hated my day job it was easy to focus on RE.
During this collection period I met the kind of buyer who in my mind is the type that turn-key is perfect for. It was actually a buddy of mine I went to college with. We were sitting on his deck enjoying the distant view of San Francisco and he asked how my "real estate stuff" was going. I went on about my various deals in progress. Then he said, "You know what? I don't know anything about this real estate stuff and I have no time to learn it. And frankly, I'm not interested in it. But I have money and I want to diversify and you seem to know what you're doing. So lets do business somehow." I agreed, and 6 months later when I was laid off from my crappy day job along with 75% of the company, I became a full time real estate investor and sold my first three turn key properties to my buddy. He is a partner in a major law firm and told me he wanted to buy 10 of these from me for starters. Turn key real estate was made for a guy like my buddy.
As far as pro-formas from most TK providers being "dubious", I agree. Though in some cases this may be by design, though not stated as such. I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt. I eventually got to the point in my own turn key business that I stopped including variable expenses (e.g. vacancy, maintenance, CapEx) in the numbers. I often had buyers ask me not to include these numbers since it made it easier for them to compare apples to apples. Then I stopped including variable expenses all together. I'd tell my prospective buyers I was only including fixed costs since people often assign wildly different values to the variable expenses and I can't guess what numbers a person will use. If they want me to plug in numbers I will include theirs or I make what I think are realistic suggestions and give them new pro-formas that account for the changes.
But to me the cash flow discussion on TK or any buy and hold single family home is moot. While the cash flow dominates the conversation it is actually the icing on the cake. In fact, I do not believe you get cash flow from single family homes as buy and hold. Between vacancy, maintenance and CapEx I think you're lucky if you are not feeding money into these properties for the duration you are holding them. I was told this same thing by a very seasoned investor shortly after I began buying my own single family homes for buy and hold. I didn't believe him. I didn't want to believe him. But 4 years and 17 properties later I think this is the truth. The real money from buy and hold SFH comes from equity built up by appreciation and principle pay down. As such, you should not chase cash flow that does not exist. If you are buying SFH for an investment you are buying for the appreciation and equity pay down. It is a get wealthy slow proposition. So buy in the path of progress where land is limited (for whatever reason). In these areas the value of the property is in the land, not the structure. Land is limited. The stuff used to build a house is not. So it is the land that will appreciate and property in land-limited areas/path of progress will do WAY better over time in terms of appreciation than any property in an area where there is nothing but land (but supposedly great cash flow). If you want cash flow, buy multifamily residential.
Another reality about buying turn key...........you will not get amazing returns. Even on paper. Nor should you expect to. If you are doing no work beyond qualifying for a loan and signing some documents don't complain about "only" getting an 8% cash on cash return (fictitious though it may be).
AS a Bay area born and raised investor... we always simply looked at rentals as forced savings and someone else would pay your mortgage... break even little negative no biggee because we knew over time given the factors you talk about land shortage we could see some appreciation in a big way.
Then when market crashed everyone said well that was stupid you should never invest for appreciation its all about cash flow.. then in my mind of one of the worst mantras ever came out ( Appreciation is icing on the cake and its all about cash flow) and you had a heard mentality racing to quote un quote cash flow Markets.. Now the known appreciating markets came back with a roar.. and cash flow is like you state flow and steady eddy.
And cash flow as a definition is return on Cash with the minimum down payment.. who ever said its good to have a minimum down payment.. I under stand the idea of max leverage. but many of the better properties will cash flow with larger downs. And then you have upside potential
This is what I ended up doing in the end. Get a realtor. Find a near move-in home. Get an inspection. Find some contractors and 'rehab'. Get a PM. Definitely not passive, but hopefully more passive after the fact.
Petra,
One counterargument I've heard for why TK is better than this approach is that a TK company would have systems in place and is pushing such a high volume that they can get a below market value property and rehab it at a cost (and effort) which is much lower than what you could do on your own, out of state. Do you think that the price markups the TK provider will make (and the potentially lower quality of rehab and/or PM compared to finding one through a trusted local realtor) offset those supposed benefits?
Mike
Most TKs are just regular old competitors in the buying and selling marketplace. They don't buy and rehab more properties than any other high volume rehabbers. It's true that any high volume rehabber has ways to cut costs on labor and materials. But it's not like they pass that savings along to you. Turn keys sell for what the market will bear. There's no discount to the buyer when the rehabber gets a deal on the purchase or the labor/materials for the rehab.
The big difference between TKs and other high volume rehabbers is their exit. Their exit is to maintain an income stream after the property is sold. Fully cashed on the sale and then contracted for monthly fees and other services thereafter. Unfortunately, we do seem to hear about a lot of shoddy TK rehabs here. Part of it is the class of property. The other issue is the undiscerning first time investor buyer who is looking at the bottom line and doesn't know or understand the value of paid 3rd party inspections.
Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
11y
Agreed Jay! One of the most common bp metrics is not taught in any accredited institution nor found in any RE textbook. Talk to any Ivy league real estate major and mention 2% and see how they respond....they will look at you like you must be from another planet.....not that you did not already know that...obviously you could teach those investment courses as is. Speaking of leverage the Donald claims 9 billion...and 90% is free and clear.
