Keeping the primary residence low LTV w/ a $0 balance HELOC.

Keeping the primary residence low LTV w/ a $0 balance HELOC.

Chris MasonPro Member
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Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes

Something that's kind of been tickling the back of my brain for a while.

Two common themes of BP, and REI in general:

1) "You make money when you BUY real estate, not when you sell. Whatever money you 'earn' when you sell, you actually made that money by buying well." (With caveats about not over-improving, etc)

2) "How do I get another mortgage and/or how do I max out the LTV during a cash out refi?" Folks want to be as leveraged as possible.

I think these things are directly at odds with each other, or at least they are the way we see them implemented. 

The consensus wisdom seems to be that the best buys are often the all cash buys (court house steps, sellers that want to sell ASAP, etc), meaning you need to have a way to get that $250k liquid overnight. And you don't just want to borrow $250k months or years in advance, and pay interest on it that whole time, because there's also the possibility that this killer deal does NOT materialize, and then you've been paying interest on $250k for no reason.

So, a strategy that occurs to me:

- Keep the primary residence mortgage free and/or pay the mortgage down aggressively and/or make appropriate improvements so the LTV is as low as possible, and open a HELOC with a $0 balance but as high of a limit as you can get, secured by that primary residence that is either mortgage free OR has a very low LTV (the lower you can get it, the higher that HELOC limit can be).

- Go find those cash only killer deals. Identify one that works for you.

- Draw upon that HELOC to make that all-cash offer with a super quick close. The speed at which you can come up with this money should sometimes mean your lowball offer gets accepted (or you pass and move onto the next one where it WILL result in a steep discount). In "cash or GTFO" scenarios, it's what lets you play in this arena with properties that are already heavily discounted.

- Once you take possession and make the property financeable (if needed), cash out refinance that property into a 30 year fixed, paying off the HELOC on your primary residence. Or, sell it. Either way, you've paid back that HELOC on your primary and have that capital available to you once again.

- Rinse, repeat. You've got that HELOC back down to $0 balance again (or close to it, depending on how much bang for your buck you got with the improvements on the new acquisition).

OK, but I'm not exactly Albert Einstein here. I know the mortgage part pretty damn well, but a lot of folks here have way more experience as REIs than I do. So...

- What am I missing?

- Why isn't this a commonly discussed strategy?

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Investor · Los Altos, CA · Member since 2014 · 942 posts · 1k+ votes
10y

@Chris Mason the strategy of "substitute collateral" is a great one for hot markets like ours in the SF Bay Area. I just did this with a first position heloc to buy a 6 plex in Fruitevale area of Oakland.  All cash offer, low interest rate, fast close... lots of benefits with this strategy!  But if you use your primary residence, just be careful that you don't loose the roof over your head!

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  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    We've been doing something along those lines - though using a corporate LoC rather than a HELoC on our own residence - for years.   Works beautifully in Canada.

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    Isn't this just a version of BRRR?

  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Max T.:

    Isn't this just a version of BRRR?

    Or, perhaps, BRRR is just a version of this?

  • Investor · Los Altos, CA · Member since 2014 · 942 posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Chris Mason the strategy of "substitute collateral" is a great one for hot markets like ours in the SF Bay Area. I just did this with a first position heloc to buy a 6 plex in Fruitevale area of Oakland.  All cash offer, low interest rate, fast close... lots of benefits with this strategy!  But if you use your primary residence, just be careful that you don't loose the roof over your head!

  • Oakland, CA · Member since 2016 · 51 posts · 26 votes
    10y

    Yes it works as long  as you make the right investments. In 2005 I did just that, maxed the loan on my primary and took out an HELCO to buy a commercial property near Atlanta. Then then the 2008 crash happened ... long story short, we ended up foreclosing the property. The bank made a bundle as our down payments were written off. Another thing about such loans, consult with your CPA but interest on this loan is not tax deductible like your primary mortgage.

  • Developer · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 904 votes
    10y
    Are you saying the interest on the HELOC would not be tax deductible? I am looking to employ a similar strategy using a commercial LOC against other investment properties. You can also invest in the stock market and use a margin loan to purchase as cash.
  • Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Roy N.:

    We've been doing something along those lines - though using a corporate LoC rather than a HELoC on our own residence - for years.   Works beautifully in Canada.

    Took the words out of my mouth.

    Yes, this was common until 2008 or so. Then all those HELOCs were 'turned off'. You can research BP back then and see all BP Nation bitching about how their lines were cut and/or eliminated. The Business LOCs were much more stable and indeed 2008-2011 or so was fabulous for LOC financing and distress acquisitions. To the OP, leveraging a LOC is much more prudent than a HELOC. Collateralized lines tied to a pool (SFR tranche) makes the most sense when acquiring. Not the market to acquire property IMO. So good luck to those who leverage their primary buying at the top of the market...

  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    10y

    Interesting @Chris Martin and @Barry B., thanks for that context. I wasn't in RE pre-recession, so I'm always after "this is how it played out during the recession..." anecdotes for the "worst case" scenarios if someone uses a certain strategy.

  • Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    Wow. Just saw Barry B. post. Similar thoughts. Great minds think alike;)  I'm not sure about the "bank made a bundle" comment, since lien holders generally were lucky to get their principal back. But clearly I don't know his particular case. Banks did 'win' a few times. Statistically, banks/lenders lost a ton in the aftermath of the GR in write-offs. Fannie and Freddie took it on the chin as did what people on BP call the 'portfolio lenders'. These smaller, commercial lenders with a local focus had a rough time compared to the big banks that were better capitalized (e.g. Wells Fargo) or quickly merged (e.g. Wachovia) before failure.

    While I do not see LOCs or HELOCs being 'called' any time in the near future like during the financial crisis, with the low rates I would be trying for longer terms (e.g. refinance to a 5 or 7 year call) IF I were in acquisition mode. I'm not in this market. Quite the contrary.

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