The $30,000 Nightmare

The $30,000 Nightmare

Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 57 posts · 31 votes

I work with a lot of out of state investors purchasing property in the Columbus, OH area. Many investors that I talk to have the notion they can purchase a 30-40k homes in a rougher area; put a little money in it and rent it out assuming they've made a great deal. As a property manager I wanted to share a few points that make deals such as these, less lucrative than initially thought. (Sorry to burst your bubble)

1.) Initial start up costs- a 30k property is generally going to need a large sum of money up front to make the home market ready (turn key). The areas that offer these properties have been neglected by previous owners, tenants etc. Simple things such as not changing a furnace filter regularly can ultimately cost the new owner $1,000's in replacement parts. From what I have seen, kitchen and bathrooms need updated, new flooring, painting, windows, roofs, etc. This will quickly turn your 30k investment into something much, much more. One should consider value after all the repairs have been completed.

2.) Rental turn over- Generally the 30k rental property is going to carry a much, much higher turn over rate. I've seen residents turning over in less than 120 days. Causing the owner to put forth more money to fix what has already been damaged, re-paint, clean a unit they just turned a short time ago. Even with a strict set of rental requirements, the area the property is located will not draw in the type of client you will ultimately desire. Again, costing you money.

3.) The blame game - Once your stress levels have reached a boiling point with questions such as 'why is my property always vacant?' Or, 'Why am I not receiving a dispersement check again this month?' You begin to push blame to your property manager, the tenant etc. Of course, this creates many problems especially if your an out of state owner. 

I feel it is very important to really take into consideration the area, and potential rental clientele your target properties will likely take on. Bumping your price even a marginal amount can relocate your prospects and give you more confidence in your investment with quality residents and a property that likely needs less maintenance/turn over, over time. At the end of the day if the margins work for you, the sale price shouldn't matter, especially if it will put you in a more desirable area.  

8Reply
97 views

Most Popular Reply

Real Estate Broker · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2009 · 575 posts · 496 votes
10y

I think what @Brent Coombs is saying about local knowledge is the most crucial aspect of this thread. 

My wife and I have several 30k properties that have performed like clock work for many years.  And, yes...  we have sold turnkey in that price range that perform too...   but on the other hand we have seen hundreds of 30k properties sold to out of towners that go bad right from the get go.  

The difference is knowing the areas.  AND...  good management. 

In Indy at least there are working class 30k areas and GHETTO 30k areas.  And looks can be deceiving.   Thats why so many out of state folks get stuck with ghetto crap.  It looks like a nice 3 bedroom ranch built in the 50's or 60's...   which is true.  But only ghetto tenants will live there!  

The 30k properties that we hold have no problem getting good tenants. some even with 700 credit scores.  They need to be within close proximity to highly desirable areas.  A lot of the times they need something a bit extra...  like a privacy fence, a garage or central air.  Making them stand out from the rest.  

One thing that I will say that not many people say on BP.   Sometimes its not the tenant or the property managers fault.  Sometimes its the investors fault!  Yes...  sometimes out of state, rookie investors that want to "drive the bus" end up making mistakes (Imagine that right..).  Some of the most common ones are trying to push rent to high and trying to cut costs on repairs.  A lot of times that is the reason why the property manager will end up feeling like they need to roll the dice on a not so great applicant.  and we all know how the story ends.  

I think overall in the whole "out of state investing" industry the major problem is the mindset.  Its the mindset that cash flow is everything.  Cash flow is not everything.  Equity is the single most important aspect of investing period.  IMO of course.   The reason why the Cali investor comes to the midwest is...   Cash flow.  And when I hear people saying that all thats important to them is cash flow I cringe.  Just because you came to the midwest for the cashflow doesn't mean that you should ignore all other aspects of investing.  You wouldnt buy a house in the ghetto in Cali, why would you go all the way to the midwest to invest in the hood?  Cause its cheaper and in way less demand?  Nonsense.  

The difference in buying in a select area of working class rentals in close proximity to something more desirable AND the ghetto is everything.  A lot of TK providers will simply go to auction and pick  up whatever is super cheap, rehab it and kick it out the door with whatever rental rate makes it look like a good deal...   

At the end of the day its on the investor to understand all of this and navigate "out of state" investing.   I don't think PM's are out the get the investors it just gets lined up that way because of all the market forces at work...   Its way harder to manage ghetto over priced over rented properties than ones that perform.  Im sure most PMs would rather manage the later.  

Just my 2 cents.   Good thread.  

See this reply in the discussion

23 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Rental Property Investor · North Conway, NH · Member since 2016 · 69 posts · 16 votes
    10y
    Good post but if you buy a $30,000 building and put $40,000 into it wouldn't it then be a $70,000 +\- building? Or would that still result in lower quality tenants?
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    nice post and very true... low value assets in most metro areas are the toughest to manage.

    look good on paper and never perform.

    And I like your statement the blame game.

    you see that a lot on BP  IE my manager sucks  etc etc.. most of the time its not the manager its the tenant ..

    Many managers these days simply won't manage low end rentals its a loss for them and who wants to deal with the lowest common denominator in the US rental market..

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    Good post but if you buy a $30,000 building and put $40,000 into it wouldn't it then be a $70,000 +\- building?...

    Nope. I believe one of the points being made is that there will be little difference to the intrinsic value of a property in a "poor" neighborhood even after a $40k rehab! (Because, within a few years, ANOTHER $40k might be required. All its positive cash flow - up in smoke).

    I'm not saying: don't consider these. But, LOCAL knowledge is key! I reckon there ARE some great $30k bargains out there. But there are many that aren't! 

    The trick is to know: which is which!? Cheers...

  • Investor · Hyattsville, MD · Member since 2012 · 822 posts · 441 votes
    10y

    A 30k building with 40k in rehab makes it a 70k investment, not necessarily a 70k market valuation. Just because you pay someone to perform 40k in rehab projects doesnt mean the market will buy it for 70k when completed or that a tenant won't ruin most of the 40k in repairs in 120 days, then move out without paying the rent and stripping the place of copper on their way out. You need to know what the market will bear for that neighborhood ARV and what the tenant pool will be to understand if your tenants will be stable and reliable.

  • Property Manager · Columbus, OH · Member since 2012 · 309 posts · 275 votes
    10y

    Excellent post Justin. Well said.

  • Specialist · Lakewood, CO · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    you see that a lot on BP  IE my manager sucks  etc etc.. most of the time its not the manager its the tenant .

    I'm not sure that fits. The manager screens and puts the tenant in there, which means that they set you up for failure. There may be other factors like low tenant availability depending on the location, but I think the primary problem is that managers are incentivized to do garbage work. They don't pay the repairs, you do. They don't pay turnover, you do (oh wait, they lost $85 that month). They care about turnover in the exact opposite way as you: that's their big paycheck. The more they can bring in quick garbage, the more money they make.

    There is a major flaw in the alignment of interests of property managers and owners, and I think that is the source of the problem. The tenant is the fault of the property manager, and the property manager is the fault of the owner. Unfortunately, the entire industry of management is backwards so owners are left searching for that 4-leaf clover. They're out there, but they are very difficult to find.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Bryan O.  I fully understand your point and its valid .. unfortunately for me I had to deal with 100 plus of these type homes personally.. the tenants are un manageable in most instances.  ERGO most turn key companies don't fool with them any more and why ANY PM would fool with them is a mystery to me.

    Its just the bottom rung of the tenant pool.. they are unstable ,, one flat tire from not paying rent.

    you cannot screen them like you would a normal higher end rental other wise you would have NO tenants at all.. 

    Its a tough one for sure. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 57 posts · 31 votes
    10y

    Bryan,

    I agree that many management companies out in this world today are wanting that turn over as that is where they make the most $. With that being said, you'll also find companies (such as the one I work for) that are honest people, we turn down many applicants that pose a potential threat based on the rental history. Our main focus (and should be everyones) is tenant retention. The broker is an investor himself so it helps to have the same experience as the client you are working with. Of course, you can screen a tenant thoroughly and still end up with problems such as eviction, collection, damage etc. 

    I would suggest anyone looking for a property manager, to do a lot of research on the company before signing a contract. I could post a whole new thread about the horrors of a bad property management company, as I have had the unfortunate opportunity to work for a few in the past.

    Ultimately, a large deciding factor is the area of the property for which you manage. It isn't to say that a bad neighborhood will ALWAYS bring a BAD tenant; but rather the process could take longer to find the most qualified tenant for that area, which again could cost you money by having your property sit vacant longer. Not to mention the lack of care I've seen people put into renting a property in a less desirable area.

    I am just seeing the investment isn't always as great as it seems in the long run.

  • Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 57 posts · 31 votes
    10y

    Not to mention, retaining a tenant will make the investor happier, and ultimately that investor will want to invest more in that property management company. Or recommend another person invest in that company. In the end that is what will make the property manager more profitable and reputable. 

  • Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2016 · 38 posts · 6 votes
    10y
    Justin Lemaster if you say that it's not worth buying a 30k house in that neighborhood then is it really just a 10k house being sold as a lemon for 30k? What is the price that it's worth buying at.
  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    10y

    Quote: I feel it is very important to really take into consideration the area, and potential rental clientele your target properties will likely take on.

    This is the real key. Real estate is always a local game, and though there are some national factors that influence prices, tenancies, profitability, and the like, there are far more geo-specific factors that can make a property a great rental or a nightmare. The other part of that is that a lot of people who are making these investments can't afford to lose any money. Investing in real estate is relatively safe and stable IF you know your market and buy right. When you are investing in out-of-town, unknown markets, you are gambling on both of those factors. 

    Personally, I would never invest in out-of-town properties that require active management; I'd rather invest in a property fund or some other vehicle that demonstrated reasonable returns and competent oversight, and let them deal with those headaches and concerns. 

    Skyline Properties
    View Page
  • Real Estate Broker · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2009 · 575 posts · 496 votes
    10y

    I think what @Brent Coombs is saying about local knowledge is the most crucial aspect of this thread. 

    My wife and I have several 30k properties that have performed like clock work for many years.  And, yes...  we have sold turnkey in that price range that perform too...   but on the other hand we have seen hundreds of 30k properties sold to out of towners that go bad right from the get go.  

    The difference is knowing the areas.  AND...  good management. 

    In Indy at least there are working class 30k areas and GHETTO 30k areas.  And looks can be deceiving.   Thats why so many out of state folks get stuck with ghetto crap.  It looks like a nice 3 bedroom ranch built in the 50's or 60's...   which is true.  But only ghetto tenants will live there!  

    The 30k properties that we hold have no problem getting good tenants. some even with 700 credit scores.  They need to be within close proximity to highly desirable areas.  A lot of the times they need something a bit extra...  like a privacy fence, a garage or central air.  Making them stand out from the rest.  

    One thing that I will say that not many people say on BP.   Sometimes its not the tenant or the property managers fault.  Sometimes its the investors fault!  Yes...  sometimes out of state, rookie investors that want to "drive the bus" end up making mistakes (Imagine that right..).  Some of the most common ones are trying to push rent to high and trying to cut costs on repairs.  A lot of times that is the reason why the property manager will end up feeling like they need to roll the dice on a not so great applicant.  and we all know how the story ends.  

    I think overall in the whole "out of state investing" industry the major problem is the mindset.  Its the mindset that cash flow is everything.  Cash flow is not everything.  Equity is the single most important aspect of investing period.  IMO of course.   The reason why the Cali investor comes to the midwest is...   Cash flow.  And when I hear people saying that all thats important to them is cash flow I cringe.  Just because you came to the midwest for the cashflow doesn't mean that you should ignore all other aspects of investing.  You wouldnt buy a house in the ghetto in Cali, why would you go all the way to the midwest to invest in the hood?  Cause its cheaper and in way less demand?  Nonsense.  

    The difference in buying in a select area of working class rentals in close proximity to something more desirable AND the ghetto is everything.  A lot of TK providers will simply go to auction and pick  up whatever is super cheap, rehab it and kick it out the door with whatever rental rate makes it look like a good deal...   

    At the end of the day its on the investor to understand all of this and navigate "out of state" investing.   I don't think PM's are out the get the investors it just gets lined up that way because of all the market forces at work...   Its way harder to manage ghetto over priced over rented properties than ones that perform.  Im sure most PMs would rather manage the later.  

    Just my 2 cents.   Good thread.  

  • Chris WoodPro Member
    Contractor · Greenwood, IN · Member since 2014 · 200 posts · 33 votes
    10y

    I think that local knowledge is key, which brings me to the point that if you going to expect a manager to do his job right bring him in prior to buying a property. That way giving everyone the better possibility of success.  I think good management can't always be successful when being thrown under the bus from the get go. Just my 2 cents. Have people you can trust and a plan out realistic expectations. I agree a lot with @Ryan Mullin.

  • Financial Advisor · Glendora, CA · Member since 2015 · 209 posts · 94 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Ryan Mullin:

    I think what @Brent Coombs is saying about local knowledge is the most crucial aspect of this thread. 

    My wife and I have several 30k properties that have performed like clock work for many years.  And, yes...  we have sold turnkey in that price range that perform too...   but on the other hand we have seen hundreds of 30k properties sold to out of towners that go bad right from the get go.  

    The difference is knowing the areas.  AND...  good management. 

    In Indy at least there are working class 30k areas and GHETTO 30k areas.  And looks can be deceiving.   Thats why so many out of state folks get stuck with ghetto crap.  It looks like a nice 3 bedroom ranch built in the 50's or 60's...   which is true.  But only ghetto tenants will live there!  

    The 30k properties that we hold have no problem getting good tenants. some even with 700 credit scores.  They need to be within close proximity to highly desirable areas.  A lot of the times they need something a bit extra...  like a privacy fence, a garage or central air.  Making them stand out from the rest.  

    One thing that I will say that not many people say on BP.   Sometimes its not the tenant or the property managers fault.  Sometimes its the investors fault!  Yes...  sometimes out of state, rookie investors that want to "drive the bus" end up making mistakes (Imagine that right..).  Some of the most common ones are trying to push rent to high and trying to cut costs on repairs.  A lot of times that is the reason why the property manager will end up feeling like they need to roll the dice on a not so great applicant.  and we all know how the story ends.  

    I think overall in the whole "out of state investing" industry the major problem is the mindset.  Its the mindset that cash flow is everything.  Cash flow is not everything.  Equity is the single most important aspect of investing period.  IMO of course.   The reason why the Cali investor comes to the midwest is...   Cash flow.  And when I hear people saying that all thats important to them is cash flow I cringe.  Just because you came to the midwest for the cashflow doesn't mean that you should ignore all other aspects of investing.  You wouldnt buy a house in the ghetto in Cali, why would you go all the way to the midwest to invest in the hood?  Cause its cheaper and in way less demand?  Nonsense.  

    The difference in buying in a select area of working class rentals in close proximity to something more desirable AND the ghetto is everything.  A lot of TK providers will simply go to auction and pick  up whatever is super cheap, rehab it and kick it out the door with whatever rental rate makes it look like a good deal...   

    At the end of the day its on the investor to understand all of this and navigate "out of state" investing.   I don't think PM's are out the get the investors it just gets lined up that way because of all the market forces at work...   Its way harder to manage ghetto over priced over rented properties than ones that perform.  Im sure most PMs would rather manage the later.  

    Just my 2 cents.   Good thread.  

     Ryan,

    Absolutely agree with you.  I live in CA and i'm investing out of state in A neighborhoods with new construction in 10,10,10 school districts.  Yes, I can buy a $30k home in compton, but why would I?  That would be insane.  For me to buy in A neighborhood 10,10,10 school districts in So Cal that would mean buying in Arcadia, South Pasadena, Diamond Bar, San Marino, etc.  Try getting a home for $30k in that neighborhood.  Man $30k won't even buy you a driveway.  

    Yooch

  • Specialist · Northern CA · Member since 2014 · 154 posts · 57 votes
    10y

    Great post @Justin Lemaster and even better follow up post @Ryan Mullin

    Out of state investing is very risky to investors that just look at the numbers and only want the highest cashflow they can find. Some are simply ignorant about the actuall rents that they can receive. They believe they can get high market rates (as quoted by TK investors) in lower income/"ghetto areas" which in reality there constantly fighting with there PM why it can't get rented or stay rented. Why they continue to fork out dollar after dollar just to maintain the 40k investment it cost to rehab due to the tenants destroying it after just a few months of living there.

    Equity is your safe haven and golden egg in case cashflow isn't there due to major capex problems, vacancy, forced evictions, etc, etc. I personally count on equity with smart investments and a blend of positive cashflow. A blend of both is always best.

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Justin Lemaster Good post and needed dose of reality.

    @Yoochul C. I get your point. IDK jack about Compton so I just looked it up. Median ($310k) is up 100k last 60 months, sqft up to $271 up from $249 last year., up 10% median overall yoy, 2 bedrooms rents $1600 to $1800. How does this compare to the out of state 10,10,10s.?

  • Mike D'ArrigoPro Member
    Turn key provider · San Jose, CA · Member since 2010 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Bryan O.:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    you see that a lot on BP  IE my manager sucks  etc etc.. most of the time its not the manager its the tenant .

    I'm not sure that fits. The manager screens and puts the tenant in there, which means that they set you up for failure. There may be other factors like low tenant availability depending on the location, but I think the primary problem is that managers are incentivized to do garbage work. They don't pay the repairs, you do. They don't pay turnover, you do (oh wait, they lost $85 that month). They care about turnover in the exact opposite way as you: that's their big paycheck. The more they can bring in quick garbage, the more money they make.

    There is a major flaw in the alignment of interests of property managers and owners, and I think that is the source of the problem. The tenant is the fault of the property manager, and the property manager is the fault of the owner. Unfortunately, the entire industry of management is backwards so owners are left searching for that 4-leaf clover. They're out there, but they are very difficult to find.

     No matter how good a property manager is, they can't get good tenants to live in bad neighborhoods. People often get lured in to these cheap properties thinking that a good PM can make them work and then don't understand why they have high vacancy and expensive turn overs.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Ryan Mullin  very good point... Not all investors are suited to being landlords. 

    And the idea that you can just hand your property over to ANY PM and not have to interact is just a fantasy.

    I have seen first hand Investor totally screw themselves as being an investor landlord by doing exactly what you were saying.

    It also was very bad pre 08 when lending was so loose that people could buy these things and have no real cash reserves.. stuff happens many times just your cash flow is not enough to keep the property going and you need to dip into reserves. what I found when I ended up with hundreds of these homes is the owners had ran out of money and the PM's could not manage a home when they had no funding from the owner.

    I recall one personally... my borrower was behind.. so I drove over to  check on my collateral.  find a tree leaning over the house about ready to crash through it.

    Tenant freaking out... good tenant from what I can see.. I personally called tree service  800 bucks... borrower would not pay it... Tenant moved that day.

    now you have a vacancy I ended up owning the house since now its vacant and the borrower could not pay and would not handle the tree issue.

    Or in your line of work.. tenant breaks something.. owner thinks tenant should pay we know tenants never pay for stuff.. stale mate... PM is not going to pay for it .. thats how a PM goes out of business... tenant leaves now you have a vacancy.

    So yes I do believe in many instances its the OWNERS fault.. they only have themselves to blame.. as they have totally un realistic expectations of what owning a rental property is all about.

  • Financial Advisor · Glendora, CA · Member since 2015 · 209 posts · 94 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Matt R.:

    @Justin Lemaster Good post and needed dose of reality.

    @Yoochul C. I get your point. IDK jack about Compton so I just looked it up. Median ($310k) is up 100k last 60 months, sqft up to $271 up from $249 last year., up 10% median overall yoy, 2 bedrooms rents $1600 to $1800. How does this compare to the out of state 10,10,10s.?

     You're in sherman oaks,  you should drive into Compton or South Central.  Bring a gun.  Cash flow sucks there.  

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Yoochul C. I have been driving past and thru quite a few times and no gun needed. I don't think Compton has rent control either. I was actually curious for the comparison reality to the 101010 but it is all good. I think it is more of a flip market there and  I think there are brand new duplexes that flow if one is interested in South LA. Check oceandevelopment dot com. It might be the one place left you can get initial cash flow on new LA construction. I am not sure which out of state city you are invested in but sometimes those older cities ghettos are a whole another level of bad. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Justin Lemaster  are you related to Johnny Lemaster the short stop for the SF Giants ?

  • Real Estate Investor · Desoto, TX · Member since 2013 · 560 posts · 528 votes
    10y

    I don't get the whole "you just need a good property manager" to make money off of $30K houses. Hell, you need a good property management to make money off of $100K houses. It is not the house necessarily, it is the people that rent the houses and the location. Generally speaking, most people renting $30K homes for $600-$700 a month are not upper middle or high income earners. For the most part (from my perspective at least) it is their income and the choices/actions that keep their income low that puts the landlord at risk. Unless the property manager is going to grow the tenants income or convince upper middle and high income earners the $30K neighborhood is the spot to be, I don't see how they are going to be a savior. They can't control either of these two facets. 

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Daren H. there are good low income tenants, and there are bad low income tenants.

    In the case of low value properties, selecting the right/wrong tenant can arguably be the single factor that decides whether it remains profitable or not. (Whereas with higher value properties, selecting a good tenant isn't perhaps so hard).

    So, a good property manager doesn't "grow" good tenants, but they can PICK the good ones!

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.