Feeling them hot market real estate blues!

Feeling them hot market real estate blues!

Real Estate Agent · Sisters, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

I'm not saying that we are on a bubble that is about to burst.    I am just looking around and not seeing how any of these homes are that great of an investment.  I think that they could be decent investments over the long run but I am beginning to think that by the time you are done looking and analyzing all of the different properties you would be better off just working some overtime or more on your business (non-real estate).  I don't see a big drop coming just a stagnation that brings very little return.  Looking to the near and mid future I see interest rates going up which should have a negative effect on real estate prices, as investors that don't want to be in real estate can invest in something more liquid bonds etc.  At least where I am (and I think this goes for the majority of the coasts), I don't think renters could afford much higher rent.  

Here is a quick "typical" scenario would love to here your critiques.  

Invest 50k in buy 200k you get 4k in appreciation and in my area you will have a hard time cash flowing.   But I am going to assume for the sake of argument you are a super stud and found a deal that cashflows 2k per year, and you have about 2k in debt pay down.  Average stock market gets you 7% which is 3.5k without doing a damn thing.  Houses seem like a lot of trouble and risk for an extra 4k a year. 

I want to believe that I can still find financial freedom with buy and hold real estate in five years or so? But I have trouble believing the numbers support it any longer.

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Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
10y

Turn that frown upside-down. If you don't think that it is a good time to buy, then by definition it would be a good time to sell, no? So, don't buy, sell. You don't have to own it to sell it either ... that's what Real Estate Agents do, they sell properties they don't own.

The counter argument is that if you JUST look at cash flow when calculating your ROI, then pretty much no time in the past 30 years in Southern California (for example) has looked like a good time to buy, and yet somehow lot's of folks still managed to make a lot of money buying and holding real estate here, with much higher returns than they would've had in the stock market, and I'm sure most people were telling them then that prices were too high and there is no way they could go any higher. You still need to pick your entry points (both time and location) carefully in this scenario, and perhaps you are not in the right time and/or place. If you are ONLY getting $4k/yr long term historical average on a $200k house, that is 2%, so definitely not the right time or place to play that game. coastal SoCal historical average (going back 40 years) is around 6% ... with 20% down (5-to-1 leverage) that is a 30% average annual return; that is the example I use because that is the example I know, not sure about Oregon but suspect it may be better than the 2% in your example. Show me a stock that has had an average 30% return over the last 40 years and I would gladly buy it.

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  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    Turn that frown upside-down. If you don't think that it is a good time to buy, then by definition it would be a good time to sell, no? So, don't buy, sell. You don't have to own it to sell it either ... that's what Real Estate Agents do, they sell properties they don't own.

    The counter argument is that if you JUST look at cash flow when calculating your ROI, then pretty much no time in the past 30 years in Southern California (for example) has looked like a good time to buy, and yet somehow lot's of folks still managed to make a lot of money buying and holding real estate here, with much higher returns than they would've had in the stock market, and I'm sure most people were telling them then that prices were too high and there is no way they could go any higher. You still need to pick your entry points (both time and location) carefully in this scenario, and perhaps you are not in the right time and/or place. If you are ONLY getting $4k/yr long term historical average on a $200k house, that is 2%, so definitely not the right time or place to play that game. coastal SoCal historical average (going back 40 years) is around 6% ... with 20% down (5-to-1 leverage) that is a 30% average annual return; that is the example I use because that is the example I know, not sure about Oregon but suspect it may be better than the 2% in your example. Show me a stock that has had an average 30% return over the last 40 years and I would gladly buy it.

  • Real Estate Agent · Sisters, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    I do currently have real estate investments and I do love this stuff.  My problem is I think the market will slow way down and cashflow on leveraged properties is becoming a thing of the past.  More then that I want freedom.  I don't see how appreciation gets you to freedom at least not unless we are looking for the long run like 15-20 years.  It would be a lot more exciting to keep accumulating properties with cashflow from your other properties.  But in the current market would not advise someone that real estate is the most reliable & safest way to wealth.

  • Rock Hill, SC · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 597 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Eric Bilderback:

    I'm not saying that we are on a bubble that is about to burst.    I am just looking around and not seeing how any of these homes are that great of an investment.  I think that they could be decent investments over the long run but I am beginning to think that by the time you are done looking and analyzing all of the different properties you would be better off just working some overtime or more on your business (non-real estate).  I don't see a big drop coming just a stagnation that brings very little return.  Looking to the near and mid future I see interest rates going up which should have a negative effect on real estate prices, as investors that don't want to be in real estate can invest in something more liquid bonds etc.  At least where I am (and I think this goes for the majority of the coasts), I don't think renters could afford much higher rent.  

    Here is a quick "typical" scenario would love to here your critiques.  

    Invest 50k in buy 200k you get 4k in appreciation and in my area you will have a hard time cash flowing.   But I am going to assume for the sake of argument you are a super stud and found a deal that cashflows 2k per year, and you have about 2k in debt pay down.  Average stock market gets you 7% which is 3.5k without doing a damn thing.  Houses seem like a lot of trouble and risk for an extra 4k a year. 

    I want to believe that I can still find financial freedom with buy and hold real estate in five years or so? But I have trouble believing the numbers support it any longer.

    Eric

    No bare with me I am a very simple person and not the sharpest person on BP. I don't listen to doom and gloom. I look at the market and it tells me what to do. If it says buy I  buy. If it says cheaper to build I build. If is say step back I step back. No reason to recreate the wheel. Just listen to what is and what is not working.

    Well got to go, I got a garden out side that needs my attentions. I add that in there just to say some times we over think things. People make money in all markets regardless of the cycle.

    Alex

    Ps serious about my garden just made new organic bug spray LOL simple things in life keep us motivated for the other things in life.

  • Levi T.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Tucson AZ / Nice FR / Washington DC · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    You know what I do when the market gets to hot, go ride my bicycle a bunch, and hopefully win a few championships.. really. Just go do whatever it is you like doing and wait for things to change, or start digging. The market is really hot right now at a national level. I'm still making really good deals here and there, but I'm having a lot more pie in the sky type chats with people, and the deals that I'm getting need some real work to make winners. 

    As the market keeps edging up more and more, I'm going to slow down and go ride my bike a lot more... starting to think about taking the year off and just ride, then check back in the fall when most deals start happening as people normally sell before the tax season, or after the tax season in the spring.

  • Real Estate Agent · Sisters, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    I am not a doom and gloom guy.  All I am pointing out is that the time to create a good amount of wealth simply by using a buy and hold strategy has come and gone in my mind.  So guys like me and you who want to ride there bikes, coach tee ball, and spend more time on the lake can't we have to work (at least I do).  Thats it not saying you can't still have a great life.  I agree there is a lot more to life then creating passive income.  But the conversation I was hoping to have was hearing other investors opinions on specifically creating passive income.  And if they are considering looking into alternatives to real estate as it seems to not be putting out the returns it was only a couple of years ago.  I would love to hear other investors opinion in regards to at what point they would stop looking at real estate so intently and go back to putting money in IRAs or something less time consuming.

  • Real Estate Agent · Sisters, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    But have a great time gardening!

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