Housing bubble 2.0? What's your strategy?

Housing bubble 2.0? What's your strategy?

Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2015 · 252 posts · 263 votes

Market is strong and continues to improve. Everybody likes speculate on how long the rally will last, how much steam is left in the market, and how bad next crash or correction is going to be. It is entertaining but largely useless, as nobody can time a market, except by accident. Buying is risky.  Are you buying on top of the market? Will you have to sit on the asset for 10 years before you can sell it? Selling is risky. In my heck of the woods - Minnesota, twin cities area, in the last 6 months market went up at least 10%. Sell today, and how much appreciation are you missing on in the next 6, 12, 18 months? That brings up my question. What is an optimal strategy for operating in the rising and uncertain market? I have a few objectives:

1. Prepare for the next crash

2. Minimize my risk

3. Maximize my returns

 Here is what we know: 

  • Market is rising
  • Duration of the rise and the top of the market are not known
  • Every passing day brings us a day closer to the correction / crash

1. Flips seem to be no brainier.  Buy something, push closing as far out as you can and sell it after, or even do a double closing make 5% - 20%. Easy. Risk - what to do with unsold inventory during crash / correction.

2. Buy and hold. Seems to make less and less sense as rent increases are not keeping up with property appreciation. Returns on investment are compressing. Safe play, but in case of crash / correction you may be stuck for years with the same door making a hundred or a few. Doesn't seem sexy.

3. No balls no glory. I mean new construction. Risky. Start in the spring, build a few, sell and run. Next year is far from certain. Complicated. Try to find a framing crew, or a tile setter. Pace is feverish, people are busy, prices are crazy. By the way this endeavor is going, once the cost of anti-anxiety scotch factored in, there will be just a few dollars left for a needed physiological help.  But seriously, this is how people lost their butt in the last crisis.

Here is what I am thinking:

1. Liquidate a portion of my long term holdings. Lock in some gains, shore up my cash position. Sell my worst, hardest to rent, least performing properties.

2. Finish and sell my flips asap

3. Get as much financing as possible, I will need it once wind will start blowing north

4. Keep buying, but buy replacements for properties in my portfolio. Buy a replacement first, say 20% better then what I want to replace. Fix and rent it. Then lipstick remodel and sell existing asset for top dollars. This way, I am paying a long term capital gains, still taking advantage of rising market and minimizing my risk. If i am lucky,  I will be left with a bit of change and a better asset. 

Curious to see what the great minds here think. Thank you.

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Russell BrazilBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
9y

My strategy is to buy in the good times, and buy more in the bad times. Peter Lynch astutely noted that far more money has been lost by people trying to anticipate market corrections than has actually been lost in market corrections.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Flipper/Rehabber · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    I don't have the time for a thorough answer by most of the investments I have and had in the past few years have all been rehabs of some sort.  Some were larger rehabs and the ones I kept I rented for cash flow or because I purchased them when the market was down and I thought the market was going to improve.  Others are cheaper rehabs which have only been renovated to the point of getting rent able.  I may want to swap out kitchens/baths/etc before selling to get a better top dollar but I am not there and they are just my cash cows.

    The nicer, complete houses I have noticed prices pushing to the highest they have been in the last 7-8 years.  These houses were worth $125k-$130k when the market was down and were now worth $175k which was near the previous top.  I sold these houses because prices were high and I had a better use for the money.  For example if I search I can turn $170k in my area into 2 rentals.  Playing monopoly it made sense to double down.  The cheaper rentals I am keeping solely for operating cash flow.

    Interest rates are low now but the fed just ticked rates up.  Although they say it won't impact consumer loans it ultimately does.  I am predicting the interest rates to rise further before they drop which will directly reduce the prices of houses.  I am also making sure I have cash available for when it is needed and have been working on moving to more of a leveraged structure because I am mostly investing equity.  I am looking to work with hard money lenders on projects I have the cash for just to stay flexible.  That should help lead to greater opportunity and sharing of the risk.

  • Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2015 · 252 posts · 263 votes
    9y

    @John Woodrich

    I feel it is time to start turning through bread and butter. I think the best strategy here, is time delayed flip. Buy a replacement, remodel, wait for a bit for market to rise, remodel and sell one of yours for top $$ .... Let's you take advantage of rising market while limits your downside ... Thoughts?

  • Investor · Saint Johns, FL · Member since 2015 · 141 posts · 100 votes
    9y

    Hahaha...the magic question: where is the market going? This whole housing bubble reminds me of the stock market. Professional investors cash out when they feel they locked in a healthy profit, before the market takes a dive. I am hearing that investors who bought many-many properties at the last crash are selling off. What do they know? Looking at historical prices (at least in CA) we're at or very near the top again. Can it go higher? Who knows... I am considering selling off our rentals as prices tripled since we purchased them. And then we'll just wait patiently..;)

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Dan Bryskin the delayed flip is pretty much what I am doing for my cheap rentals.  Couple flips I am working on now we are trying to wrap up to sell at current prices.  I am not a fan of purchasing cash flow, I want a flip potential in all of my properties regardless of how I plan to use it.

  • Investor · Rochester, MN · Member since 2016 · 80 posts · 37 votes
    9y

    Look at what the big guys are doing.  The ones that hand down from generation to generation their wealth.  Do some research.  The best way to learn is to learn from others.  History does repeat itself. You have to do the research though.  That is the only way you are going to believe in something 100%.  That is what I have done for myself.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Jessica Grewe the "big guys" are not interested in my single family renovations.  They are on to bigger and better things with more upside than what I make on single family houses.

    If you are following the "big guys" strategy, care to share the basics?  

  • Real Estate Investor · chicago, IL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 231 votes
    9y

    in our area, our market has gone up 2-3%; not exactly a bubble but all real estate is local.

  • Rental Property Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 17 votes
    9y

    It is not really my intent to change the direction of this thread, but I probably will by asking the following simply because, though I have followed the market loosely for several years, I am not especially active or an expert: what makes you so sure that this is a bubble?

    Let's not get too bogged down by the term 'bubble' - I understand that markets inevitably rise and fall, and the not-too-recent-past represented a very definite bubble, but the market fundamentals were also much different/much weaker (IE: lending to anything with a pulse). I'm just challenging the assumption that there is an impending significant decline in the short to medium term (my inferences from this thread so far). 

    So, for those who have been doing this much longer than myself: why should I discount the fact that populations are rising and a new generation of buyers is hitting the market? Doesn't this follow the basic laws of supply and demand?

    To be clear - I can see a lot of instability in our country right now, and a lot of things do not seem to add up, but what is to say that we are not in for another 90's-like economic boom? If this lasts for another decade we would probably all be much better of with a few buy-and-holds than waiting to swoop in after an impending (but unrealized) crash (that said - flipping/upgrading certainly isn't just waiting passively).

    Thank you for your responses to my naive devils advocate question :O)

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Until it "pops" we wont know when we are in the bubble. Right now houses are near the previous market highs and interest rates are trending up (which drops house pricing).  Those don't bode well for projected house prices.  There is still a lot of demand in the market however in certain areas I decided it was best to cash in.  My was partially based on house prices and having followed that market for 10-12 years.  The other half of my decision was to further my investment goals and turn one property into 2.

  • Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2015 · 252 posts · 263 votes
    9y

    @Nick Brogren 

    I am not saying we are in the bubble yet, nor am I saying we will be. I do believe in time we will have a correction or crash. So my question is about the optimal strategy in rising / uncertain market. My line of thinking is: with the correct strategy for the given phase one should not have to worry about peaks, crashes & timing markets. Now if I am to speculate on market fundamentals, as @John Woodrich has pointed out, rising interest rates will in time soften demand. And cyclical nature of the economy leads me to believe market will have a correction at some point. 

  • Investor · Rochester, MN · Member since 2016 · 80 posts · 37 votes
    9y

    John Woodrich, the big guys are selling and waiting for the pop is what I have learned.  This can be applied to your single family home or the "big guys" giant multifamily properties.  

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    9y

    My strategy is to buy in the good times, and buy more in the bad times. Peter Lynch astutely noted that far more money has been lost by people trying to anticipate market corrections than has actually been lost in market corrections.

  • Rental Property Investor · Hummelstown, PA · Member since 2015 · 638 posts · 653 votes
    9y
    Agree totally with Russell Brazil I'm definitely still buying but sticking to fundamentals and my criteria. Must have solid cash flow and decent equity position. I am also trying to get into A or B class since C class tenants I feel would be hardest hit in a downturn. Bottom line stay cash flow positive at all times, and stress test the portfolio with "what if" scenarios to make sure I can withstand unexpected vacancies and/or repairs. Also, lots of cash reserves as well!
  • Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2015 · 252 posts · 263 votes
    9y

    @Kyle M.

    I would disagree with you. Here is how i think about it. Come crash. People who can't afford a house, will rent. People who can't afford rent will move to the lower tier. Safest place to be is along lowest tiers. Because there is always a demand. In 2010 10-20k  a month mansions were sitting empty. But section 8 people could not find housing. Section 8 max up to section 8 max + 10-30% was doing a brisk business. Personally I feel better with 5 100k rentals then with one for 500k. Had a chance to get one today, but if did not feel right.

  • Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2015 · 252 posts · 263 votes
    9y

    @Russell Brazil

    I also heard a cool quote attributed to someone famous. "The only mistake I ever made with real estate was selling it" With unlimited funds - buy, buy buy. Over time you will come ahead. In my situation - I got a number of people I am paying salaries too. I'd like to keep them employed. Funds are limited, and I want to avoid a situation people ended up in 2006-10. I have 2 advantages: 

    1. I am a good buyer. 

    2. We run a competent construction / remodeling operation.

    My challenge is to find a way to do business, leveraging our advantages and minimizing our risks. So, while we are buying, we are also selling, doing flips and dabbling in new construction. In 2009-2014, strategy was simple. Buy as many cheap homes as possible. Then go out and buy some more. Today, I believe there is still a possibility of arbitrage, but the story is very different, hence I am interested in everybody's thoughts on the strategy.  

  • Investor · Bay City, MI · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 9 votes
    9y

    "Polititions, like generals have a tendency to fight the last war." I would expand that to include investors strategizing to beat the last bubble. We experienced a once in a lifetime event in 2008 and 2009. I don't believe we'll ever see a national residential property bubble burst again. I've been waiting since 2010 for the commercial bubble to pop but it's turning out to be just a slow deflate instead. I digress. My advice here, for what it's worth, is to stategize over the coming inflation. Pour all your money and all you can borrow into hard assets whose cash flow will keep pace with inflation. I'm a buy and hold residential real estate investor so I may be biased. Back to the mantra though, buy low sell high. If you can get top or above market price for a property, by all means take some profit. Just be sure to invest that profit versus sitting on it or blowing it on something that won't help you in an inflationary environment. Just my two cents and the strategy I pursue currently.

  • Investor · Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2016 · 970 posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    I don't think sexy matters too much when there is a market crash and your values drop to where you can't sell. I definitely don't think you should stop flipping completely but maybe a project or two at a time and not a whole bunch of ones at once.

    Personally I like the unsexy but still cashflowing buy and holds. Even if rents don't match up with appreciation, I'm only running against the numbers I had when I first purchased the property, simply because Its all long term static debt. Now people who refinance every few years to pull capital or because of crushing ballooning rates might be in more of a pickle, but in general, rents should always be pretty inelastic. As long as you can take a 25-30% hit to your rental rates and have some money in the bank, I think rentals are the best way to stay healthy in a down economy.

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    9y

    Looking back, I wish I had diversified my niches more.  If I had flipping and new construction development experience and systems in place, I may be able to do something with my local market besides sell my least favorite rental homes fast for full retail.  Could be worse.  I see so many new investors even in my small area and am glad I have been buying for a long time, not just beginning.

    There are definitely still some positive market dynamics today as @Nick Brogren mentions.  Net population growth (for now lol - Trump), low interest rates, large numbers of millennials forming families, low inventory of RE for sale, etc.  

    For my buy and hold niche, I just can't get anything to pencil.  My marketing budget and time I spend on it would need to be triple what it was a few years ago- for way skinnier returns.  Thankfully, it doesn't matter much to me anymore and I'd rather take a nap. I'm down to a couple 'event' postcards a week and that's fine.

    Over the next 18 months I plan to exchange the bulk or all of my portfolio to a better rent/price ratio market.  Lower break-even points and more cash-flow cushion just in case.  I still believe rentals are very recession proof like @David Zheng mentions.  They got me through the GRC just fine, but I do wish I'd branched out into flips and development for diversity.  Can build for $110/sqft, sell for $170+.  That would be nice right about now!

  • Investor/Agent/Entrepreneur · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 464 posts · 564 votes
    9y

    @Dan Bryskin I have a lot of those same thoughts as well, especially seeing how tight the market is now. I am still looking for long term holds, in small apartment buildings, but I am looking in C areas. I think there is still growth potential and solid cash flow to be gained by doing this in those areas. 

    As for some of my other businesses, I am selling and looking to liquidate most of my equity in them to cash out at this time. I'll be saving up to be ready whenever the time comes to buy low in X years, but I honestly think there can be a deal made in any market. 

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2015 · 204 posts · 89 votes
    9y

    From very first of this year housing bubbles are showing signs of bursting. Recently, Two big banks are waving red flags about Toronto housing prices. Reality in Toronto-

    Maximum Monthly Affordability -$5,080

    Maximum Mortgage -$887,289

    MHC Loan Insurance- $21, 291

    Maximum Affordable Home- $987,289

    Average Detached Home Price in the GTA $1.2Million.

  • Investor · Crystal, MN · Member since 2013 · 486 posts · 277 votes
    9y

    @Dan Bryskin

    Great topic.  It is important to note the similarities, and dissimilarities with the bubble.  First, back in 2005-2008, there were no doc loans, option pay adjustables, and plenty of just ridiculous products.  Now we all grapple with Dodd Frank, and while that law will soon be gutted, there are more levers in place now to consider.  One factor is the baby boomers are retiring.  That means more homes on the market, with fewer buyers at some point.  Is it in 10 years, or longer?  No way of knowing.  The key is to know your own market.  But in the Twin Cities, I think the bull has some distance to run yet.  

    Selling isn't necessarily smart. If your holdings have equity, you can secure HELOC's against existing equity, to acquire fix and flips. My style lends itself to research and using existing equity to seek out new deal possibilities in an area I have identified as 'my backyard', and we are moving towards fix and flips. But I am not going to be gung ho. Gung ho can require huge workweeks, and tying up work crews, and great risk. Slow and steady wins the race, IMO.

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    9y

    @Dan Bryskin although nobody can predict the future, there are phases that every cycle goes through. Decreasing inventories cause higher prices which fuel an increase in new construction. As prices keep rising you will see people buying on speculation and doing cash out refinancing. People will buy and sell a year later making 10-20% which just attracts more people to real estate, further increasing demand. New construction continues and more speculators enter, creating even more new construction. At some point the supply outpaces demand. Surplus eventually causes prices to start falling. Speculators and flippers are the first to get caught. Assuming the economy and jobs are strong, it may just stabilize prices. If there is some type of economic catalyst where people lose jobs, then it fuels the down spiral. 

    We had a down-turn in 1992 and 2000 and 2008. We are technically 9 years into an 8 year cycle. However, the last down turn didn't really bottom out until 2012, so that could put the cycle in a different position and we may see things last through 2020. Give or take a year, that is my current prediction.

    I am locked into long term low rate loans as a hedge against inflation. I am saving cash but also watching for deals. I don't flip or buy on speculation. I am value investor focused on buy and hold single family homes.

  • Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2015 · 252 posts · 263 votes
    9y

    @Joe Splitrock, @David Moore and others :)

    Nothing wrong with rentals. Buy them right, make sure they will be profitable in the downturn and enjoy. Interesting question is how to lock some gains in the market. Here is what I came up with. Say I have a property #1. 2 Bdr in the one of the dicier neighborhoods. Bought years ago and on the books for free. Say it is rented for $900, a bit under market because once I find tenants I like, I don't bother with increases. Say I can get a property #2, 3 Bdr in a hair better neighborhood for $110k. Say it needs 20k in rehab. Say I can have property #2 online for $130k. I can get $1400 in rents from 3bdr.  Now I take property #1, spend 15k on paint and flooring and may be I can get $130k for it, as time has passed and market went up.  Here is what I did. I have sold existing asset for top $$, replaced $900 of rental income with $1400 and went from 0 upside in asset #1 to 15%-30% upside in asset number two. Now if I am lucky I will also end up with some lunch money, but even if transaction ends up cash negative say 5-15k, it is still a good deal. Welcome to the concept of time delayed flip :) Anybody has better ideas?  

  • Chandler, AZ · Member since 2016 · 109 posts · 56 votes
    9y

    Wow. I love all the ideas you've been throwing out @Dan Bryskin I'm in the process of analyzing my area to jump on my first investment as an owner occupied deal or house hack. As I move forward building a portfolio I am wary about becoming over leveraged in the event that there is a correction in the near future. I love the different strategies for keeping a strong portfolio.. I am taking notes. 

    One question: I see that in your example prop #2 is ~1% deal. I'm getting hung up here in my own analysis..It looks like in my area, the days of the 2% deal are over. 

    At the same time, in the book on rental properties by Mr. Brandon Turner himself he mentions he will almost never cash flow form a 1% deal. 

    So is it that  the 1% or 2% rule of thumb is very area dependent? 

    Thanks!

  • Anthony GaydenPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Omaha, NE · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    I am a buy and hold investor so my strategy might not surprise you. 

    I plan on holding.

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