Blockchain real estate brainstorm
Most Popular Reply
Levi T.Pro Member
Rental Property Investor · Tucson AZ / Nice FR / Washington DC · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votesWe are seeing a lot of hype around using blockchain on stuff that does not need it, but if those startups want to be hot and sexy, you need blockchain in the game to turn heads. ICOs are the new IPOs for all startups. There is a reckoning coming for all those altcoins that are launching with zero value as a business that backing it.
As for what blockchain will do for real estate, counties that adopt it can stop dealing with clouded titles as blockchain will let us insure the owner on record is the owner, once a property is recorded to the blockchain. It wont be hard for them to adopt, it's basically a centralized BC ran by the county. It will also mean faster transfer and recoding.
I only see 2 futures for crypto:
As Currency: It lets people move money freely, cheaper, and it also provides them an exit out of their countries currency without a stock broker. When it comes to the currency side of things, the rest of the world will come first before America as my country is not like Grease or Zimbabwe in that respect yet. This market won’t have a lot of players, we don’t need 1,000 crypto currencies, only 2-3 really. I think our currency players are already defined in this respect, they just need time to stabilize more.
As Technology: On the other side of things, people are issuing coins for startup capital, if they are successful then your coin is worth more, this is what’s driving the value of these coins., from there you can buy or sell it on a open exchange, or maybe you can trade it in for stock at some point if they make the leap to a publicly traded company (I'm speculating on that last bit). It allows everyday people to get in on public offering without having to be a millionaire, it also allows companies to stay private and avoid all the regulation and red tape. Hopefully the SEC does not stomp on that and cut us out of the ICO market. Lots of regulation is headed our way in 2018 for America.
Right now we are is massive speculation mode, people are tossing whatever they can get to stick to the ICO market. There will come a shakedown at some point, that’s when we will see which tech companies emerge as the next Amazon or Facebooks of the world.
My top picks are BTC and ETH for currency. ICO alts are XRP, POWR, TRX, and RED (Launching in a few days). I'll be HODLing those till the end of time. I'm hoping BTC gets segwit2x implemented. It cost to much now of days to transfer, and it's slow as mud. If BTC fails to fix that issue, it's done for as a currency coin.
177 Replies
- 8yIan IppolitoBusiness MemberInvestor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
@Charles Worth,
On Yemen, Rawanda etc.: yes, I agree there is a complete lack of personal freedom. The goal of libertarianism is personal freedom, but in my opinion the problem is that it's means of supposedly accomplishing this is by abolishing all centralized control and regulation. In my opinion, the natural result of doing this isn't the complete personal-freedom paradise, that many believe would naturally emerge. Instead you get warlords in control of cities, pirates taking over shipping lanes, and complete chaos in the the general population. To me it's obvious that there needs to be a balance between control/regulation and letting people do whatever they want.Yes, I agree that bitcoin and crypto are not interchangeable (just like Firestone tires and rubber tires are not interchangeable). The original poster was talking about using bitcoin on real estate transactions etc., borrowing money with it, tenants paying with it, etc. so that's where I was going with that.
If you want to talk about non-bitcoin cryptocurrencies: I also agree that security will probably never be solved. Just yesterday $400 million was stolen from another exchange, and these are the people who are supposedly the experts at it. There is no way that the average Joe is going to be able to secure cyber currency well enough to use it as money.
And despite everyone and their brother creating a new cryptocurrency, there still isn't one that's been created that isn't victimized by volatility issues (please correct me if I'm wrong).
The problem with the decentralization, is not the developers working on the tokens. The problem is that there's no centralized control to stop the volatility (the equivalent of a central bank in a non-virtual currency) to stabilize the price. If we didn't have central banks creating foreign reserves, etc. many real world currencies in Asia and elsewhere would be looking more like bitcoin or Venezuela volatility wise.
And blockchain can and already does definitely exist without cryptocurrency. Maybe it's not interesting to you because you can't speculate on it, but businesses like IBM, etc. are very interested in it for creating new products that have nothing to do with crypto. Check out this IBM blog on "blockchain for business:"
https://www.ibm.com/blogs/blockchain/2017/05/the-difference-between-bitcoin-and-blockchain-for-business/
"blockchain can be used for a much broader range of assets than just cryptocurrency. Tangible assets such as cars, real estate and food products, as well as intangible assets such as bonds, private equity and securities are all fair game. In one business use case, Everledger is using blockchain to track the provenance of luxury goods to minimize fraud, document tampering and double financing. Now, over one million diamonds are secured on blockchain."
None of these things have anything to do with cryptocurrency. In my opinion, these are the things that are going to provide real value and survive (and are the real uses that are equivalent to Amazon.com and Google in the.com boom). I believe the ICOs will end up like Pets.com: an idea that everyone thought was fantastic at that time, and bid up to ridiculous levels of "value" before it came crashing down.
But, in the end I could be wrong. It's just the two of us arguing back and forth and we really don't know. We're going to have to wait and see what happens.
The Real Estate Crowdfunding Review - Denver, CO · Member since 2016 · 114 posts · 99 votes8y
Originally posted by @Jon Q.:
Originally posted by @Jerry Shen:
Originally posted by @Jon Q.:
Originally posted by @James Green:
@Jon Q. how do you jump the shark by thinking that this model Bob's Repair will be accepted within real estate? Bob has knowingly accepted the volatility of the ETH currency. Then they have placed a value on their own Crypto-currency, based off of the ETH currency. What will happen if I buy 1 ETH that equals 6000 BOB, and ETH tanks. Sure the value of a dollar varies from country to country, but we are not in danger of it disappearing when another bright idea comes along for a US median of exchange.
Also, let's not confuse the proven LEGITIMATE technology of the block chain with the various speculative "internet monies". This reminds me of Pets.com. back during the dot.com bust. Just because you put a business on the Internet (proven technology), doesn't mean it will work. The business idea still needs to have an underlying valid business. These Ponzi currencies, still don't have an underlying asset other than hype & forced hope.
Sure people are making money on them now, but IMHO, there will be a lot of everyday investors getting killed in it. Either through a massive drop in value, lack of broad currency support (
http://bitcoinist.com/cryptocurrency-failures-all-time/), or through cybercrime.
As I continue to see, people are losing their life savings over these crypto-currencies because they believe that they are safe & secure. All it takes is one internet transaction to become a victim. Once that happens the next time you want to use your currency you may find your wallet empty, regardless of whether its software or hardware based.
Hey, I'm not an investor, nor do I know if Bobs Repair will succeed, but they have raised a lot of money. Frankly, I personally see lots of risks with their model, but they have experienced some success and raised quite a bit of cash from investors.
It's just one example of what is occurring. I can name 50-100 others that have raised $10-20 million.
I don't think capital raise is a good metric to use. The ICO boom is very similar to the dot-com boom in the late 90s. I don't see a lot of value in most of these companies. It won't end well.
I'm bullish on bitcoin but I'm bearish on 99% of other blockchain based projects.
Crypto currency and ICOs have totally disrupted fundraising as we know it. If you doubt that, wait 12-24 months. Raising capital in cryto isn't a bubble.
You can only use ICOs to raise money for blockchain based utility tokens, that's a pretty limited subset of capital requirements. What has happened, is that this has created incentives for ANY company to simply add "blockchain" to the end of their company and raise an ICO even if the use case is a ludicrous example of using the blockchain.
That's why I think it's a bubble, and eerily similar to dot-com where 99% of dot-coms were wiped out because anyone could just add "dot com" to their name and instantly receive funding.
- 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Swarm Fund, which offers a blockchain for private equity, today the first funds to launch on its platform. One fund is a distressed real estate fund, the second is a pre-IPO secondary fund.
http://realtybiznews.com/swarm-fund-launches-blockchain-based-real-estate-investment-fund/98746591/
- Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Jon Q.:
If you’re interested in investing in bitcoin, Etherium, litecoin or other crypto currencies and haven’t been able to register with Coinbase or Binance before they closed new user registration, due to 250,000 new users per minute, there’s a new crypto exchange launching shortly...
UPcoin is a NEW fast, safe and convenient crypto exchange, supporting both cryptos and buying with fiat currencies. Register now to ensure you’re able to get in. Trading starts in March 2018. If you register with this link, you’ll get $500 in trading fees covered:
..."before they closed new user registration"??? What's up with that? [eg. I'm registered, but have not been able to add CC details! Message came back: "We were unable to verify your Card". I tried another CC with a different Bank. Message came back: "The Card Issuer returned an Error". ie. Different reasons for non-verification]. Anyone else having trouble with Coinbase?...
- 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Originally posted by @Brent Coombs:
Originally posted by @Jon Q.:
If you’re interested in investing in bitcoin, Etherium, litecoin or other crypto currencies and haven’t been able to register with Coinbase or Binance before they closed new user registration, due to 250,000 new users per minute, there’s a new crypto exchange launching shortly...
UPcoin is a NEW fast, safe and convenient crypto exchange, supporting both cryptos and buying with fiat currencies. Register now to ensure you’re able to get in. Trading starts in March 2018. If you register with this link, you’ll get $500 in trading fees covered:
..."before they closed new user registration"??? What's up with that? [eg. I'm registered, but have not been able to add CC details! Message came back: "We were unable to verify your Card". I tried another CC with a different Bank. Message came back: "The Card Issuer returned an Error". ie. Different reasons for non-verification]. Anyone else having trouble with Coinbase?...
EVERYONE is having "issues" with Coinbase. FYI: They have over 250,000 new registrants a day. Website errors, insufficient staff... etc.
Don't give up and you'll eventually get it. As I suggested above, you should consider UpCoin. You should be able to register easily prior to the launch.
- 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
I'm having trouble registering... hopefully I can get in before I completely miss out on the chance to lose my life savings on Bitcoin.
Funny! Or by the time your entire business is disrupted by a blockchain startup 😂
- Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2016 · 35 posts · 17 votes8y
Very excited about how blockchain will change real estate. Imagine actually being able to pay contractors if and only if they fulfill what they agreed upon in the smart contract or having all of our legal documentation as pertaining to the contract written into the ledger. It's going to be absolutely amazing.
As individuals have pointed out here, yes it's confusing. Perhaps a bit too nerdy or finance-bro-y. It's something new and lots of people have already made a ton of money on it. It will definitely get much easier soon. I firmly believe that you still haven't missed the boat though if you're a buy and hold type of person. Your biggest enemy in this situation will be yourself if you love to check on how your investments are doing because this market never ends. It's 24/7. Like the stock market on some coke.
Certainly there are many buzzwords that all coins will use such as "decentralized" and it's mainly because of the crash that happened back in 2008 with finance banks getting massive bailouts, stock and house prices falling. In a way, it's a bit harder to trust that our govt has our back. Yes we value the U.S. dollar being worth, in fact, $1. Inflation can say otherwise. The attractive thing about cryptocurrency is that it's like magical internet gold because we know how many of these coins are circulating and how many will be produced by a given certain year thus being able to know what the market cap of certain coins are.
Either way, as @Jon Q. mentions, this will be here to stay as currency, commodity, and utility. Give it some time to mature and in a few years this will be a large part of our lives as prices stabilize. Barrier to entry is pretty low if you buy on coinbase (or Robinhood soon).
For me, personally, this has been one of the best investments I have ever made and I'm excited to be a part of it. I'm happy to discuss further if you're curious via PM or on this discussion.
- Monticello, IN · Member since 2015 · 44 posts · 9 votes8y
@Jon Q. I was actually brainstorming blockchain and the investment real estate sales flow with my team earlier in the month. We were throwing around ideas concerning when documents are filled and by the correct person. In high stakes deals it would be beneficial to track that deadlines are met, docs are esigned, and forms are filled without the ability to back track. Help keep the whole team honest.
- Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
This reminds me of a joke I heard the other day.
"How many qubits does it take to break a block chain system? Nobody can ever know because the binary hackers always break them so fast."
Sorry... I was at a hacker/cyber security forum.
How many billions of dollars in Crypto currency has been stolen in the last 10 years? How much money has been stolen from bank?
Block chain is only good to prevent spoofing. There are lots of security issues.
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Jon Q.:
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
I'm having trouble registering... hopefully I can get in before I completely miss out on the chance to lose my life savings on Bitcoin.
Funny! Or by the time your entire business is disrupted by a blockchain startup 😂
If you believe attorneys or established insurance players are going to roll over rather than adapt, go ahead and bet on it.
Maybe the startups can finance their attack on title/insurance/attorneys by selling imaginary assets to morons.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Jon Q.:
Originally posted by @Brent Coombs:
Originally posted by @Jon Q.:
If you’re interested in investing in bitcoin, Etherium, litecoin or other crypto currencies and haven’t been able to register with Coinbase or Binance before they closed new user registration, due to 250,000 new users per minute, there’s a new crypto exchange launching shortly...
UPcoin is a NEW fast, safe and convenient crypto exchange, supporting both cryptos and buying with fiat currencies. Register now to ensure you’re able to get in. Trading starts in March 2018. If you register with this link, you’ll get $500 in trading fees covered:
..."before they closed new user registration"??? What's up with that? [eg. I'm registered, but have not been able to add CC details! Message came back: "We were unable to verify your Card". I tried another CC with a different Bank. Message came back: "The Card Issuer returned an Error". ie. Different reasons for non-verification]. Anyone else having trouble with Coinbase?...
EVERYONE is having "issues" with Coinbase. FYI: They have over 250,000 new registrants a day. Website errors, insufficient staff... etc.
Don't give up and you'll eventually get it. As I suggested above, you should consider UpCoin. You should be able to register easily prior to the launch.
Turns out that the second bank quoted me (over the phone) different cent amounts had been withdrawn by Coinbase (to verify the CC), than the account actually had recorded when I was able to check, after signing up for internet banking with them the following day. [What was up with that?]
The upshot is: that second CC is now verified, and (unlike @Tom Gimer) I now have the chance to start losing my life savings through Coinbase (even though the default setting suggests that I can currently only do it at a rate of $300 per week)!
Jon, I will look into UpCoin (and other alternatives), thanks.
Wondering: how long is the current bloodbath going to last? eg. Bitcoin: As at 2/2/18, currently down 46% since this time last month, and many other coins showing similar dives...
- 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Originally posted by @Jon Q.:
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
I'm having trouble registering... hopefully I can get in before I completely miss out on the chance to lose my life savings on Bitcoin.
Funny! Or by the time your entire business is disrupted by a blockchain startup 😂
If you believe attorneys or established insurance players are going to roll over rather than adapt, go ahead and bet on it.
Maybe the startups can finance their attack on title/insurance/attorneys by selling imaginary assets to morons.
There’s nothing imaginary about properties being bought with crypto through blockchain. Unless you’d like to risk become obsolete, I suggest that you start adapting.
- Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Does anyone remember the last time $450,000,000 was stolen from a bank or title company by hackers?
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Jon Q.:
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Originally posted by @Jon Q.:
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
I'm having trouble registering... hopefully I can get in before I completely miss out on the chance to lose my life savings on Bitcoin.
Funny! Or by the time your entire business is disrupted by a blockchain startup 😂
If you believe attorneys or established insurance players are going to roll over rather than adapt, go ahead and bet on it.
Maybe the startups can finance their attack on title/insurance/attorneys by selling imaginary assets to morons.
There’s nothing imaginary about properties being bought with crypto through blockchain. Unless you’d like to risk become obsolete, I suggest that you start adapting.
They might want to update the last paragraph of that article.
There is nothing to adapt to in the jurisdictions we cover, yet. I'm not ignoring this -- it's interesting for sure -- but I'm also not caught up in the hype. Until there is a new standard adopted, we have to continue using paper, examining title, conducting settlements, and so on. Plus there will always be buying and selling, defaults and disputes.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Denver, CO · Member since 2017 · 7 posts · 27 votes8y
Veeeery late to the party on this one but I do have some thoughts about blockchain for real estate. For background, I've started and run several internet companies, starting with my first one back in 1995. I've raised VC, sold companies, and written hundreds of thousands of lines of code, so I understand both the technology and the business models.
First of all, I've looked at pretty much every real estate blockchain company with any name recognition and think they will all need to pivot or die. They're a) not solving real problems or b) trying to boil the ocean by bringing everything on chain.
Second, they tend to overly focused on buying property with Bitcoin or what-have-you. That's cool, but it's not useful. Yes, you can transfer $1 billion dollars around the world in 10 minutes, but you can't do all the due diligence, sign all the documents, get insurance any faster than before.
So the process is really no better than wire transfer except that you may save $15-25 in fees, which is not that big a deal in a six figure purchase.
Fourth, the volatility of crypto assets makes them unsuitable for these kinds of transactions. There needs to be a widely accepted stablecoin before crypto can be used for mainstream transactions. I think Basecoin and Maker Dai are good candidates for that, but they are still half-baked at best.
Finally, the user experience for cryptocurrencies is abysmal. The UIs are confusing and require far too much knowledge from the user (e.g. gas fees for Ethereum). It's also possible to send money to the wrong address, or no address whatsoever, and there's nothing you can do to recover it!
Consensys and the Ethereum Foundation are working on many of these issues, and I'm optimistic they will make progress, but right now blockchain tech is where the Internet was in 1994 (I know because that's when I started thinking of starting a company). We're still waiting for crypto's version of Netscape to come along and make it accessible to an order of magnitude more people.
So I don't think the technology is ready for much at the application layer. Right now the focus should be on things like ease of use, price stability and network usability tools like Ethereum Name Service (a DNS for wallets).
All that said, the world moves faster now, so it's worth thinking about what applications to build once the infrastructure is built out. I'm working on a project now, but won't tackle it in earnest until the end of this year. You can find it at BlueSpruce.network
- Denver, CO · Member since 2017 · 7 posts · 27 votes8y
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Just got word that certain national title underwriters are prohibiting the issuance of closing protection letters, title insurance policies, etc. unless the transaction is conducted in US Dollars.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2014 · 232 posts · 165 votes8y
@Reece Fox what are your frequent uses?
- Seattle, WA · Member since 2018 · 2 posts · 0 votes8y
Originally posted by @James E.:
@Reece Fox what are your frequent uses?
Hey there James,
I've been a crypto currency investor since 2014, and since then, I have been utilizing the blockchain technologies to send payments, receive payments, and much more. - Dayton, OH · Member since 2018 · 21 posts · 6 votes8y
Have blockchain replace wire transfers. Make it more secure, and a currency that only is used in B2B transactions, i.e. you have to have access to the MLS in order to get your wallet, or a lawyer or a title company. Regulate who can have the wallet, make sure the transactions are traceable, and make them lightning fast and secure. The average user wont need to worry about it, and you can offer a secure transfer for a fee using crypto.
I would think a lot of tech could claim they could do this, but I think this tech would need to be specifically designed to integrate into how real estate deals currently work to be effective.
Cheers!
- London · Member since 2019 · 722 posts · 386 votes7y
Replace wire transfers? S.W.I.F.T. handes the big wire transfers around the world. Why would I care what technology they use?
Similar to the phone system. When I started working in Silicon Valley, IP was not used much. Then TCP with IP took off. The phone companies replace the technical infrastructure they operate with hardware that could shift conversations using 'voice over IP'. For most phone users, they never noticed.
- Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes7y
My comments overall, not all real estate specific:
- Blockchain potential is far reaching
- Blockchain and cryptocurrency are two different things and many posters have a hard time segregating the two.
- The current public record system (e.g. this NC county), with electronic recording of digital records with support for paper documents that will be a requirement for ever, is necessary and sufficient.
- Deeds and chain of title is just one part of public recording, and blockchain for other vital records doesn't fit well. Example: The subdivision plats, etc.,... those files still needs a repository.
- There are much better blockchain 'killer apps', like Ag traceability, that will have bigger impact than rewriting state statutes and "improving" a small piece of public recording
- Smart Contracts, just like 'real' contracts, are only as good as the author/programmer
- Ethereum has my vote (that's where I've placed my development capital) as the intermediate term platform of choice
- Ethereum transaction costs are too high today for many large event per smart contract applications (IoT specifically)
- IMO, the IETF should distill Ethereum into a set of RFCs (like old IOTP but blockchain centric) and decouple ether (and third party developers) from the protocols
- I'm not convinced Ethereum can scale globally (hence why the IETF should step in?) to billions of daily transactions. Why does my full node need to know all blockchain in India? Seems like emulating protocols like BGP and OSPF would help... but this is beyond my technical competence.
I can see supply chain disruption as the most obvious real estate application. Other areas are easy to comtemplate. Smart contracts for new construction subcontractors... mam, when the computer program is making the payment... or not if the sub is late... you will see projects completed on time!
Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.