Controlling Your Appraisals

Controlling Your Appraisals

J ScottPro Member
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Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes

Vikram and others brought up an interesting topic in another thread, and because it was buried pretty deep in there, I wanted to break it out into a new thread. The discussion was about how you go about getting your rehabbed properties to appraise once you get them under .

Obviously, you'd like your property's value to stand on its own without any help from you, but in this market, anything extra you can do to ensure your property hits its target appraisal price is important.

I'm going to present some of my ideas (they've worked for me and others I know) and then open up this thread to others who have had success in getting their properties to appraise in this market...which can often be very difficult...

I've found that by:

- Providing Information
- Building Rapport
- Building Trust

You can go a long way towards getting appraisers to err on the side of trying to help your appraisals come in at your target price.

From a Providing Information standpoint, remember that appraisers have a tough job these days. They need to make a lot of people (on different sides of the table) happy. Helping them do their job effectively and efficiently will make their lives easier (especially when the underwriter comes back and asks for more details to substantiate the number), and in return, make your life easier. And given new HVCC rules, you may be more familiar with comps in a given area then they are, so you may actually have better comps than the appraiser!

From a Building Rapport standpoint, if someone knows you and likes you, they are going to want to help you. Ask the appraiser about his family, ask about his business, ask
him questions that allow him to feel like you appreciate his "help", and (if it's true) insinuate that you may want to use his services in the future. We don't like to let our friends down, so the goal is to get the appraiser to feel as if you're a friend in the short time you're together

From a Building Trust standpoint, many appraisers (and others) are leery of rehabbers these days because a few of them give the rest of us a bad name (shoddy work, lie
about repairs, etc). Oftentimes, when appraisers walk into a rehabbed property, they assume that the value is LOWER than an equivalent house that isn't being flipped. By proving to the appraiser that you're in the group of rehabbers who take pride in their work and do things the right way, you'll get the him to appreciate your work and efforts and to trust that your house is probably MORE valuable than an equivalent house that isn't being flipped.

With that background, here are my concrete suggestions on how to work with appraisers:

1. Always ensure that you know when the appraiser is coming to your property. We make sure that our properties are on an agent lockbox and are alarmed. We then tell the lender/broker that the appraiser needs to call us to get access to the property. Nine out of 10 times we'll get a call the day before the appraisal, but occasionally the appraiser will call while standing outside the house when he sees the "Alarm" sign on the door; when that happens, we tell him how to disable the alarm, but now that we know he's at the property, we can rush right over or send our project manager over to meet him.

2. Always make sure you are present when the appraiser is doing his walk-through. This is your opportunity to build rapport, provide information about what work you did, brag about the fact that you pulled all required permits and only used licensed contractors, and to generally take credit for the great rehab your team has done.

3. At the end of the walk-through, you have an opportunity to provide information to the appraiser that he can take back to the office and review. This is the information that will help him do his appraisal and help him justify the number he comes up with in case anyone asks. Here are the things I provide (nicely organized in a folder):

- Renovation Overview (see example attachment to this post)

- Rehab Cost Breakdown (see example attachment to this post)

- Before/After Pictures (see example attachment to this post)

- Comps (I print out comps from the MLS that support my sale price and add them to the folder)

Of course, while most appraisers are happy to have you around during the inspection and happy to take the information you have, don't just assume this. I will always ask upfront, "Do you mind if I stick around during your walk-through" and then before I hand them the folder, I will always say, "I certainly don't want to do your job for you, but I have some documents here that will give you more information about the rehab I did, the money I spent, and some of the comps I know about in the neighborhood...would you like them?"

I've never had an appraiser who seemed bothered by the fact that stuck around during the walk-through (most of them are talkers and like the company) and never had an appraiser who didn't want my extra information (again, most of them were very appreciative of anything I had).

So, what are some of your tricks for working with appraisers and appraisals?

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Real Estate Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
15y

Age and wisdom are two separate things. There are many old people who are not very successful, and many of them have a high regard for themselves because they think their age makes them more experienced / wise. That is why it is harder to convince an old person to change his ways than a younger person, regardless of how much he needs the convincing.

With respect to appraisals, anybody who thinks that data is data and there's not much one can do with it knows neither appraisals not statistics. It is fairly common for appraisals of the same property to come in at very different numbers from different appraisers.

In any event, I do not wish to engage in an endless debate with people who have more time on their hands than I. Readers are free to decide which way they wish to do things based on the different opinions on this thread and the quality of the source.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Tara G.:
    I have to agree with Real Estate that if the data doesn't support it, there is nothing an appraiser can do about the value.

    This is key. I would never suggest that a seller could (or should try to) get an appraiser to value a property above what the data suggests. Generally, the data suggests a range, and my sole goal is to get a value at the high end of that range.

    In this way, the appraiser is not doing anything unethical, nobody stands to get in any trouble, and everyone (including the lender) should be happy.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by J Scott:
    Originally posted by Financexaminer:

    I doubt anyone else in this thread has ever signed off on an appraisal as the appraiser or the review appraiser. So this is all really obsurd to argue over your opinion Mr. Real Estate.

    How about if we leave it at this:

    For those of you whose goal is to preserve the integrity of the appraisal process, do what Bill and Real Estate suggest.

    For those of you whose goal is to get your appraisals to come in higher, follow my advice in the original post above.

    No, that's putting my comments in the wrong category, my comments are not about the integrity of the appraisal at all.

    My suggestion really is not that opposed to what you feel is an important approach at all. I'm saying it depends on the appraiser and getting another appraiser could mean that your advice could well backfire on you. I'm not saying you are giving poor advice, I'm saying it may not always work in the investor's favor.

    Jason, you are in Atlanta, pretty big area, I would assume you will get appraisers you have never met. Obviously you have an approach that has worked for you, so far, but not everyone has your skills in approaching an appraiser.

    I have never met an appraiser who showed up at a property who was simply rude or threw additional comps on the ground in front of me. When I did an appraisal only a few sellers tried to be involved, but agents were a real pain most of the time. You just have to smile, say thank you very much and go on. No appraiser wants an investor or Realtor calling the lender and raising kane about how rude the appraiser was and sayingthey never want them on their property again, and yes, some do that. At least now, assignments are to be random so there is less control from that aspect.

    So, unless your comp shows up in the appraisal, you really don't know (you can't prove) that it was even considered. Your packet could have gone to file 13 as soon as the appraiser got back to his office, you don't really know. I have seen it done!

    Jason, you have access to the MLS. Many investors do not have access, so that's a problem for them to come upwith good comps.

    The appraiser has the same access to the MLS. The only comps that an investor may have knowledge of that the appraiser does not will be private sales, FSBOs that are not in the MLS. If you can provide evidence or means to confirm these sales, that would be helpful, otherwise there is no information that you have that the appraiser does not.

    The appraiser generally begins work at the office, not in the field. If you are in the neighborhood and you know that you have an assignment of 2346 S. Kings Ave, you might kill two birds with one stone and stop by before work begins, but usually, much of the work is accomplished before inspection.

    Where you are will also have alot to do with the approach used with your appraiser. The experience of the apr is also a factor. In a large city, the apr. may not have been in that neighborhood in two years. In smaller areas, and depending on the market, the apr. may have been in the subject neighborhood two weeks ago.

    If you have reviewed many appraisals you will notice that much of the information contained in it is simply boiler palte with the subject property inserted. The comps are presented and the adjustment matrix is there on a residential appraisal.

    Someone made a comment as to the appraiser not knowing the sale price. That is the second question asked of the client.What is the address, what is the contract price! It is required to accept an assignment. If the appraiser lets on as if they don't know, they may just be checking you out!

    There is no real statistical analysis made with comps. The adjustments made are based on Marshall Swift cost guidelines for the geographic area, a fireplace might be stated as $5,000, but the style, design, quality of materials, workmanship and even size (like a 6' open stone fireplace with 200 pound stones) is a matter of opinion. But there are also adjustment limitations for any single adjustment and maximum adjustments in realtion to the final estimated value. You're not going to get a 20K add for that stone fireplace in a 100K house!

    Attempting to go there with an appraiser will not impress them. So, reading some suggestions on the internet and acting on them could well leave the newbie investor with pie on his face! If you are not qualified to base your opinions within the appraisal guidelines, I strongly suggest you don't go there at all.

    So as I said, if you can get to know appraiser on a professional level, not sucking up, but approach them professionally (asking questions, having them do some work for you, etc.) you'll be further ahead and know how to appoach them. If you are in a large city, this may not be practicle at all. In my area, there are about 20 appraisers and about 8 do the lion's share of work, so this is not a problem here.

    Taking the attitude that you as a seller are going to control an appraiser or the comps is simply the wrong assumption. You need to accept the fact that as an investor, you will not be exposed to all areas of real estate and gain extensive experience in a few years, unless you actually take the professional courses and obtain actual field experience in various areas.

    One last comment, experience is knowledge gained by doing, not reading. There is no substitute for experience. Old or young doesn't matter, but it's rather hard to have extensive experience and be young. If you don't have an ego and are not somewhat extraverted, you probably should not be in real estate, just be aware of the difference.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Financexaminer:
    Originally posted by Vikram C.:
    Age and wisdom are two separate things. There are many old people who are not very successful, and many of them have a high regard for themselves because they think their age makes them more experienced / wise. That is why it is harder to convince an old person to change his ways than a younger person, regardless of how much he needs the convincing."

    Bill:

    Yes, I know that well, as my father is in his 80s and still "active" in real estate.

    When I was about your age and I was pretty confident that I knew everyting too. As you get older, you'll realize how much you didn't know. :roll:

    My lady friend has two teenagers that I often have to "interact" with, believe me, they know everyting!" Bill]

    Sorry about that I messed upthe quotes.

    V:
    With respect to appraisals, anybody who thinks that data is data and there's not much one can do with it knows neither appraisals not statistics. It is fairly common for appraisals of the same property to come in at very different numbers from different appraisers.

    In any event, I do not wish to engage in an endless debate with people who have more time on their hands than I. Readers are free to decide which way they wish to do things based on the different opinions on this thread and the quality of the source.

    V. An appraisal is not a statistical analysis, it is an analysis with parameters set by guidelines, there is no "testing"required at the individual appraisal level. You can get varied opinions, but they should not be extreme.
    You can study the subject and think you understand it from an analytical point of view, but you won't be able to factor in opinions based on experience, such as neighborhood evaluation and market influences that form the opinion.

    Sorry I messed up the quotes, I thought I was at the bottom of what you had said.

  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    15y

    Great back and forth here less the typical arrogance from the typical posters...I am sure most readers are learning a lot.

    Originally posted by Aaron McGinnis:
    Typically the lender is on my side in the matter, so that helps.

    I think this point is a really good one. Many (most?) lenders really want to do the loan and likely view the appraisal as more of a nuisance than anything else. The whole "comp" process is inherently opinion-based and subject to variance. Small variances in opinions of value can make a big difference in holding times for investors and/or the final profit numbers for a project.

    I see both sides of the debate, but I certainly don't think there is anything wrong with an investor trying to get maximal value from an appraisal. Hundreds of appraisals run a certain way by a certain appraiser is no more indicative of the way things are typically done than tens of appraisals from an assortment of appraisers in my opinion. Given that there are opinions involved and there is likely a large variance in work ethic among appraisers it seems rather close-minded to assume that your way of doing an appraisal will be the same way the next guy does it.

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    15y

    Bill -

    It sounds like we (at least mostly) agree...

    I'm not saying that my approach will work every time, but it's certainly worked near every time for me. Of course, it could be that every one of my properties is priced below market (I don't believe this to be the case) or I'm just so charming and charismatic that appraisers can't bear to let me down (I know for certain that this isn't the case :D).

    It's also possible that my market is different than other markets or that appraisers in my market are different than other appraisers. Though I'm guessing neither of those are true to a large extent.

    There are not a lot of things in this world that I would claim to be great at, but negotiation, persuasion and human psychology would certainly fit into that category.

    EVERY interaction you have with another human being is a negotiation (whether you realize it or not); oftentimes you're negotiating perception, but in many cases you are negotiating something much more tangible. In this case, every interaction with an appraiser is a negotiation of the (perceived or real) value of your property and the perceived integrity of you and your business as an investor.

    While many people aren't good negotiators and while many people could easily piss off an appraiser by using the approach above, most of the things I suggest are relatively benign and can't get people into too much trouble.

    If I were talking to a group of people who were experts on negotiation and persuasion, I could turn the initial post in this thread into a book. I could make some tremendously more specific and important recommendations on how to help your appraisals (I do a lot more than I mention above, and most of it has to do with personal interaction, not just handing over a packet).

    But, these aren't things that most people care to do or would be good at, and could certainly rub an appraiser the wrong way if not handled delicately and deliberately. Which is why I pretty much stick to the basics above.

    I guess the quick summary is that none of what I wrote above is rocket science. Appraisers may not like it when I come out and say what I'm doing in this fashion (or using the word "controlling"), but empirically, it works.

    And, I'll stress again, my intent is not to have anyone do anything unethical or to try to get an appraiser to do anything unethical; my intent is to persuade an appraiser that out of a stack of relevant data, the data that best supports my interests is the right data to use.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    15y

    Jason, Exactly! You and I are on the same page I believe. There are many factors involved.
    I think you have pointed out some good ideas and noted that they work for you, perhaps other can pick up on some of your ideas and implement them and be successful on a personal basis with those appraisers that are recpetive. It is very much a social aspect within the industry and we all have to work together at some point. Good job!

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    15y

    To anyone else....LOL

    I have never met an appraiser who walked out the door and said "OK, this is Friday, I'm going to go kill some deal"!

    Everyone wants the deal to go through! If the price is obviously reasonable and it appears that it can be justified in the market, most appraisers will do their best to make it happen!

    They know the importance of the deal, how it effects real people and that their client (the lender) wants to make money!

    This reminds me of one appraiser who came in to my office almost in tears. She was a little late on getting the appraisal to me on a really good loan for a doctor. I don't recall the amount, but she was really upset and she was telling me how hard she tried to bring in the value required, but just couldn't do it because of comps. My business was a large chunk of her bread and butter and she was worried!

    We got on the MLS and she showed me what she had to work with and I had to agree. It was a large home.

    I assured her I appreciated her efforts and asked her if we could call the buyer and simply explain it to him. She agreed. We did so. No problem! He had the funds to make up about 20K.

    Appraisers are not your enemy.

    And, what I have found is that if you look at properties that come in really below the contract price they will usually be sales of either a FSBO or investors! They are often over priced to begin with. So if you have a problem with appraisals coming in significantly lower than your contracted price, you might examine how you price your properties, it might be that you are not really pricing to the market but rather on your desired outcome. You don't always get what you want or what you can get someone agree to.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Financexaminer:
    Mr. Real Estate, you are absolutely, without any doubt whatsoever, correct in your opinion and I know where you are coming from. That is your opinion and it's obviously the way you have run your appraisal company...
    This topic is not about who is correct and who is wrong about their opinion. Secondly, Mr. Real Estate came across as less opinionated and more as matter of fact. For instance, his statement to Jason of "Incorrect". Jason has pointed out an overview of how an investor can help his/her cause by gettig their appraisals to come in at or above value. They may be opinions, but at least they come fro expereince and my opinions and experience, clear across the country from Jason, are exactly the same. This is not rocket science or a chemistry project where the values must be precise.

    There has also been a ton of back and forth of strong opinions here, one of which that comes to mind is the conversation/argument that other investors may not have the same skill sets to talk with the appraisers. To this I say, "what the hell is your point?" That argument statement could be said after every single post about someone's experience or opinion of something. EXAMPLE: "I make great profits on my rehabs because I have a good team". - Your same line of not everyone has my skill sets comes in here too. But it is pointless to say in my opinion. If someone does not have a skill set NEEDED to succeed in this business, they had better find it, find a pertner with it, or get out of the business, it is that simple. This thread was not inteded for those who do not have or are not capable of getting the skill sets to do what is suggested.

    Placing all the back and forth aside, here is how this thread should lay out for members who are lookinig to improve their flip business (or get started in the right direction): If you flip, do the suggestions Jason laid out for you. This is in no way, unethical, illegal, or immorral. It is good business practice by the investor and 99% of the time, the appraiser will be appreciative of your efforts in providing needed information to them. I do it almost exactly as jason does and have been very successful at it.
    Also, there is no right or wrong, there is only what has worked and what has not. For Jason, for Vikram, for me, and for many others, this approach has proven, through expereince, to work more times than not and as such, use it or don't use the advice at your own peril.

  • katy, TX · Member since 2011 · 12 posts · 7 votes
    15y

    Consider the following scenario:

    You purchase a property with the intent to repair and resell.
    You call the local inspector and inquire about the repairs.
    The inspector says he will meet you at the house when you are done.
    After completing the repairs, the inspector meets you at the house.
    During the inspection, the inspector inquires about your family, your spouse, your kids, your dog and your friends. The inspector also tells you what a fine job the local inspector does and and how qualified he is. It's clear that the inspector and you have established a very good rapport.

    The inspector then tells you that you did not comply with the local repair rules and you need to redo all the repairs.
    When you ask why he didn't disclose the local repair rules earlier when you first spoke with him, he again brings up how good your family, spouse, kids, dog and friends are.

    You are required to redo all the repairs and associated expenses because the inspector did not disclose these issues up front. But the inspector is your buddy, so it's ok if you have to redo the repairs?

    The same situation exists for the appraisal.

    THE SELLER MUST DISCLOSE ANY ISSUES OR PROVIDE ANY INFORMATION UPFRONT. THIS INFORMATION IS NEEDED BEFORE THE APPRAISER BEGINS HIS RESEARCH.

    IF YOU WAIT TIL THE INSPECTION TO PROVIDE THE INFORMATION, THEN THE RESEARCH HAS ALREADY BEEN PERFORMED AND THE APPRAISAL MAY NEED TO BE REDONE IF THE INFORMATION YOU WITHHELD IS RELEVANT.

    Professional and competent behavior is required to run a business.

    "suck up" behavior is primarily used when professional and competent behavior is lacking and one party tries to cover this up.

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    15y

    Wow, Real Estate...that was likely one of the worst analogies I've ever read...

    The roles, motivations and goals of each of the two participants in the original scenario (appraisals) are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than the roles, motivations and goals of the two participants in your analogy (and certainly aren't analogous); as such, your analogy is pretty meaningless.

    A better analogy would be me talking to the inspector and giving him documentation of my integrity and skill in order for him to be more forthcoming with the requirements necessary for me to pass inspections. And yes, I do this as well...and also quite successfully.

    Regardless, yours is one appraiser's opinion. Among the seasoned investors who have replied to this thread who have used the methods I describe, we have dealt with literally hundreds of appraisers between us.

    You say one thing and the hundreds of appraisers who we've collectively dealt with have indicated another.

    So, I leave it as an exercise to the reader to determine if they want to listen to you (a single appraiser) or if they want to listen to the collective experience of the investors here who have worked with hundreds of appraisers.

    I'm not saying there aren't others like you out there, but in the experience of the investors here who have -- again -- dealt with hundreds of appraisers, you're clearly in the minority.

    And btw, "sucking up" has very little to do with any of this...it's about providing data, instilling confidence, demonstrating integrity and good business practices and building rapport. If you don't know the difference between "sucking up" and those things, perhaps that's where you deviate from the rest of the appraisers we work with and why you can't seem to grasp why these practices tend to work.

  • katy, TX · Member since 2011 · 12 posts · 7 votes
    15y

    I find it interesting that when the roles are reversed and the Seller is the one who is required to redo work and expenses, then your approach doesn't apply. You require the Inspector's info up front rather than after you perform the repairs. I've been requesting the same thing with the appraisal info but you do not want to provide it upfront. Appears your rules change depending on which side of the fence you are on.

    I also find it interesting that you use your "integrity and skill in order for him (inspector) to be more forthcoming". This is exactly what I've been suggesting, is common sense, doesn't require any special skills and you do not want to do. THE SELLER MUST PROVIDE WHATEVER INFO THEY HAVE UPFRONT SO IT MAY BE CONSIDERED BEFORE THE APPRAISAL RESEARCH IS PERFORMED. THIS AVOIDS HAVING TO REDO THE RESEARCH AND RELATED WORK.

    Definition of "suck up" from the original post:

    "From a Building Rapport standpoint, if someone knows you and likes you, they are going to want to help you. Ask the appraiser about his family, ask about his business, ask him questions that allow him to feel like you appreciate his "help", and (if it's true) insinuate that you may want to use his services in the future. We don't like to let our friends down, so the goal is to get the appraiser to feel as if you're a friend in the short time you're together"

    As identified in my original post, my responses were a public service to clear up some of the misinformation included in this thread. In summary:

    - Be professional, competent, prepared and responsive.

    - Provide any info you have upfront so the Appraiser can consider this while performing the research and preparing for the inspection.

    - There should not be any surprises for a typical home appraisal. As a property becomes more unique, there may be more variations in an opinion of value.

    - The Appraiser's Client is whomever hired him. The Appraiser's responsibilities are with their Client.

    I've fulfilled my public service duty and will end with this post. It's up to the reader how they run their business.

    cheers.

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Real Estate:
    You require the Inspector's info up front rather than after you perform the repairs.

    I expect the inspector to give me information when I ask for it, not a moment sooner. In general, that's the first time I meet the inspector at the property (I won't ask for information before he sees the house...that would be ridiculous).

    I think it's safe to say that the same approach with an appraiser holds as well. If the appraiser asks me for information during first contact (for example, on the phone), I will certainly give him everything he asks for. If he doesn't ask for information at first contact, I'll give it to him when we first meet face-to-face.

    EXACTLY the same as I would expect from an inspector. So, if your analogy holds true, then I believe I'm doing everything correctly.


    I've been requesting the same thing with the appraisal info but you do not want to provide it upfront. Appears your rules change depending on which side of the fence you are on.

    WHAT?!?!?

    I never said that I wouldn't provide information upfront. I just said that I don't volunteer information until we're face-to-face. If asked for information, I'll provide it whenever and wherever it's asked for.

    If an appraiser calls me on the phone and I'm in the car, I'll rush home to get him the information as quickly as I possible can. Like I've said on many occasions in this thread, my job is to be as accommodating to the appraiser as is practical.

    Can you point out ANYWHERE in this thread where I said I would refuse to give information upfront if requested? Or are you just making that up?


    Definition of "suck up" from the original post:

    "From a Building Rapport standpoint, if someone knows you and likes you, they are going to want to help you. Ask the appraiser about his family, ask about his business, ask him questions that allow him to feel like you appreciate his "help", and (if it's true) insinuate that you may want to use his services in the future. We don't like to let our friends down, so the goal is to get the appraiser to feel as if you're a friend in the short time you're together"

    Pick up a book on negotiation sometime...you might learn something...

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    15y

    I have had several suggestions to change the title of a few of my posts so that it more accurately reflects the topic. Along those lines, perhaps you should consider changing your profile name from Real Estate to Block Wall, it would be more representative of you.

    Your analogy, as Jason pointed out, is ridiculous. A local city inspector would not authorize work without your specific plans and approved permits. And if you were talking about a home inspector, then your analogy is even worse.

    Here is the info that Jason and I would commonly provide to an appraiser: A. Comps (within same subdivision, when available, and within last 3 months) B. Details and photos of comps pointing out which were distressed sales along with visual evaluation of condition and which were standard sales, along with condition reports and photos. C. List of repairs and upgrades made to subject property including costs.
    You claim you need this info BEFORE you arrive for appraisal, yet you can not possible work up a figure of value until AFTER you have physically visited the property, as such, how on Earth does having this info we provide set you back and cause you to redo all your work? The answer is, IT DOESN'T!

    Most of us welcome new members here to our site and encourage them to engage in conversation. For you, it is now apparent that you only intend to argue a point which has no substance. It may be your right to do so, but you will win nothing here for it.

  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    15y

    This thread reminds me of the episodes of Cops where the cop always thinks he is right. It is amazing how even the most minute element of power goes to some people's head and they get a Napolean complex about their supposed power.

    I guess this is why people like Jason demand that people use their lender. They can somewhat control this nonsense. Too many deals are getting killed today by outright stupid appraisals that are done in a manner to cover the appraiser's rear instead of in a manner to reflect true value. I have had some refinances come in with RIDICULOUS appraisals...luckily we had sufficient equity to make up for this stupidity.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    15y

    Well, I can see that this has simply turned into an appraiser bashing thread by many who have limited knowledge of the process, that being on the user side.

    An appraisal can be fully acomplished in the office prior to visiting the subject property with information gained by conversations with various parties. However, the final determination and making the final estimate of market value can be on a scrat pad or worksheet, but it can not be entered on the apprisal and signed until aftter the appraiser has physically been on premises and viewed/inspected it for themselves. Then, after inspection, if it confirms what his opinon, the firure can honestly be inserted and signed off.

    Mr. RE migh have explained his position a little better than he did, but why does he need to? Because of the anamosity and nit-picking of a few who have never done an appriasal?

    As to the insults, I'm sure that no one would want to consider that most investors have very little knowledge and experience in doing an appriasal and only through reading through them and perhaps some valuation class with a bunch of real estate agents do they form their opinion of how an appraisal is made. Knowing just enough to be dangerous as they say.
    And, consider the very nature of what any "investor" is in the business wants, a selling price that wrenches out every possible dime. Anyone should be able to understand that an asking price would be set at what an investor sees as the most profitable. What the market will BEAR.

    I'm sure no investor would ever admit that they price the properties as high as they possibly can, making room for negoiation and trying their very best of netting a higher price. Then you want to ***** when you priced it too high and the market does not justify the price based on standardized guidleines that everyone has to abide by.

    If the investor had priced the property right in the first place, all of your appraisals would have come in at value!

    IMO, 95% of the investors out there have no idea how structured the appraisal analysis really is. What many of you see as a subjective decision at the whim of the appraiser is often not as subjective as you think. Thousands of opinions are viewed by review appraisers and others who can put a bad appraiser out of business and if their opinions are not statistaclly valid or in line with similar assumptions in the market an in line with other appraisers, they get slapped.

    The art is making the most correct adjustment, the most justifiable opion, not one that is at an upper or lower range. With some low priced junker, the may be little room at all, while a 450K home will allow a greater variance in opinions.

    And just like there are bad investors, bad Realtors, bad lenders and bad carpenters, there are bad appraisers.

    I'm betting this will not be the last comment in this thread, but to those who may follow, are you speaking from a standpoint of ego or indepth experience in doing appraisals and knowing what and when an appraiser wants it?

    Are you just making a little snotty comment because you like someone who posted here or do you have anything positive to add?

    Frankly, I made it through some posts and didn't even finish them as they just seem to be twisting things for the sake of arguing and being critical. Many of you probably have not made it this far in this post either!

    I don't see Mr. RE telling the investors here that the 50% rule is a load of crap, so where do you get off telling him his opinion within his profession is out of line? I mean really...who the **** do you think you are?

    Let the opinions fly, but when you start attacking someone for their knowledgable opinion, expect the same! There will be no winner in the minds of perhaps thousands who read this, but only with the regulars who paly here regularly.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Financexaminer:
    Well, I can see that this has simply turned into an appraiser bashing thread by many who have limited knowledge of the process, that being on the user side.

    If I did this, it certainly wasn't my intent. I have a lot of respect for appraisers, as they have a very difficult job (especially these days), and while Mr. RE seems to think that appraisers only have one person to satisfy (the lender), in my experience, a good appraiser wants everyone (including the buyer and the seller) to feel like the process was fair and accurate. This can be a very tough line to toe, especially when potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars are on the line.

    While appraising is all about numbers, there are people involved, and anytime you have people involved, the task becomes infinitely more complex (yes, infinitely -- as an example, there's no computer in the world I can't beat in poker, but you add an idiot with half a brain and at best, over a small number of trials, I'm 70/30).

    So, I certainly don't mean to bash appraisers as a whole, though in this case, I had every intent to bash a particular appraiser... :D

  • Contractor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2008 · 978 posts · 985 votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Financexaminer:

    I'm sure no investor would ever admit that they price the properties as high as they possibly can, making room for negoiation and trying their very best of netting a higher price. Then you want to ***** when you priced it too high and the market does not justify the price based on standardized guidleines that everyone has to abide by.

    I hate to be contrary or wag my nose at you here, but I'm gonna go ahead and say that I ABSOLUTELY. POSITIVELY. EVERY TIME. try to price my flips at the absolute, utter, top of the market.

    The product I turn out is going to be, without question, peerless in its price range. I will ask for every red cent I can make the market bear for it.

    And if my appraisal comes in low, I will absolutely argue about it until I've either gotten my way about it or had the appraiser tell me that under no circumstances will he consider further re-evaluation... and I've had it go both ways.

    Am I nice about it? Yes. Am I fact-based? Yes. Am I as single minded as a dog chasing a squirrel? Heck yes.

    Why do I take this approach? Bottom line is that I have nothing to lose and everything to gain. I also want to see appraisals come in as high as possible, so my sale price can be as high as possible, so that the next time someone sells a house there... maybe... just maybe... they'll push the selling price up a bit based on my sale.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    15y

    And Aaron, that's perfectly OK in my book too! If you truly have the best house after your rehab in that range, type, style, amenities, etc. then by all means see what you can get, work with the appraiser and see if he has room for adjustments that he feels are justified, just don't ***** about it if it;s lower and he doesn't see things in the same light as you do. It is what it is at that time in that market.

    When I said overpriced, I mean over priced because you need to payoff your car before they tow it off. Being high is one thing, being grossly high is another, what that is exactly is kinda hard to pinpoint in a fourm, but I'm sure you know what I mean, those are pretty easy to find., usually with a DOM of 120+ days. Usually, for what ever they are, they are not priced to move, obviously.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    15y
    Bill, this paragraph of yours is you assuming that investors as a whole or as a group have little to no knowledge of how appraisals work or how they are done. That is an unfair assumption and you will be wrong when dealing with certain investors. I may not have a license to do appraisals and have never done one officially, but that does not mean I do not know what it takes to produce one or that I dont know about the guidelines and regulations placed on appraisers. On the contrary, I know enough about them to do the job of an appraiser (not that I would want to be one). Again, not sure who this line is directed to and i certainly hope not me, as I would think after all this time, I have earned a better rep than that here on BP. That said, I feel that I have added some valuable insight into the conversation and although I may be on opposite sides of the fence as RE, it is only due to the manner in which he presented his argument and the fact that there is no foundation for his argument other than his own beliefs. No, I don't see him saying that either but I did see him posting his opinions as fact and that everybody else was wrong just because he is an appraiser. I for one never said his opinion is 100% wrong, what I said was it was only his opinion and not fact. He posted as if it were fact. I for one, and Jason for another, have had persoanal and well documented experience to the contrary of his opinion and wanted to share that with anyone else reading.

    My intent was never to get into this tic tac back and forth and was also not intent to attack. However, when one claims opinion as fact, that will almost always come under close scrutiny here on BP as it should. Fact is fact, opinion is oppinion. My opinion is that to better serve yourself as an investor seeking to get your appraisal to come in at value, you should follow the steps outlined in this thread. I am not saying all must, and i am not saying that it will work 100% of the time, but I am saying I have experienced success doing it and nothing more. If you or RE want to argue that, you may do so until you are blue in the face. I do not intend to argue with someone over my own experience.

    Define top of the market and this paragraph could change dramatically. I too want the most profit I can get, obviously, but under market conditions, I must be within reason and must be able to support value with other comps. That said, a few years ago, I could price my homes at the top of the market and have 3-5 bidders first day of my listing. In today's market conditions, buyers are fewer, federal and state tax credits are gone, and buyer confidence is low (in large part to the high gas prices and the poor job market). As such, top of the market is now the lowest priced home in teh comparables and as such, to get my homes sold quickly, I must price them that way. So top of the market today is bottom of the comps.
  • Specialist · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 852 votes
    15y

    I miss the good ole days! You have a better chance of winning the lottery than influencing an appraiser! LOL! I just do a great job, and let the chips fall where they may. There have been so many appraisers indicted, they will not even consider an outside influence from my experience! :roll:

  • Contractor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2008 · 978 posts · 985 votes
    15y

    Will - I disagree. If I'm selling at the bottom of my comps, then I believe that I'm not wringing the most out of the market and I'm doing no-one (Myself including) any favors.

    To me, "Top of the Market" means just that... I look at my highest comp and think to myself, "How can I convince an appraiser to go higher?" ... what combination of information and product features will it take for me to top my competition?

    Making the most of this market isn't about trying to scrape by with one rehab here or there, hoping to bottom out the competition. It is about targeted investing and making sure that today's sale sets up tomorrow's appraisal by pushing the market values up.

    Just MHO. Your mileage may vary.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Will Barnard:
    Bill, this paragraph of yours is you assuming that investors as a whole or as a group have little to no knowledge of how appraisals work or how they are done. That is an unfair assumption and you will be wrong when dealing with certain investors. I may not have a license to do appraisals and have never done one officially, but that does not mean I do not know what it takes to produce one or that I dont know about the guidelines and regulations placed on appraisers. On the contrary, I know enough about them to do the job of an appraiser (not that I would want to be one). Again, not sure who this line is directed to and i certainly hope not me, as I would think after all this time, I have earned a better rep than that here on BP. That said, I feel that I have added some valuable insight into the conversation and although I may be on opposite sides of the fence as RE, it is only due to the manner in which he presented his argument and the fact that there is no foundation for his argument other than his own beliefs. No, I don't see him saying that either but I did see him posting his opinions as fact and that everybody else was wrong just because he is an appraiser. I for one never said his opinion is 100% wrong, what I said was it was only his opinion and not fact. He posted as if it were fact. I for one, and Jason for another, have had persoanal and well documented experience to the contrary of his opinion and wanted to share that with anyone else reading.

    My intent was never to get into this tic tac back and forth and was also not intent to attack. However, when one claims opinion as fact, that will almost always come under close scrutiny here on BP as it should. Fact is fact, opinion is oppinion. My opinion is that to better serve yourself as an investor seeking to get your appraisal to come in at value, you should follow the steps outlined in this thread. I am not saying all must, and i am not saying that it will work 100% of the time, but I am saying I have experienced success doing it and nothing more. If you or RE want to argue that, you may do so until you are blue in the face. I do not intend to argue with someone over my own experience.

    Define top of the market and this paragraph could change dramatically. I too want the most profit I can get, obviously, but under market conditions, I must be within reason and must be able to support value with other comps. That said, a few years ago, I could price my homes at the top of the market and have 3-5 bidders first day of my listing. In today's market conditions, buyers are fewer, federal and state tax credits are gone, and buyer confidence is low (in large part to the high gas prices and the poor job market). As such, top of the market is now the lowest priced home in teh comparables and as such, to get my homes sold quickly, I must price them that way. So top of the market today is bottom of the comps.

    What I want to know is how did you get two quotes in one post? But it looks like I said that about the "wag the nose" thing.

    Will, I never meant to imply that you didn't contribute to the thread or that you didn't have a right to your opinion and based on your experience. Much of what RE was saying was about when to get information, and his statement was not unreasonable, it appeared to me that some thought it was not important that info could be given later on, and it can, but the Ap. may need to zap someone for an additional fee as it ideally should be given at the time of ordering it or shrtly thereafter, not after the work has been done.

    As to experience, that's pretty bold or arrogant, but more uninformed for someone to say that they read about a profession and they can do the job as required, really!

    As to knowing what limitations Aps work under, claims can be made in that light but I doubt it unless one has actually been there and done that. Just one example is the inter-corporate communication from Appraisal agencies ordering appraisals from independents, with updates as to conforming to value range adjustments which can change to the market area. "Civilians" so to speak, don't have access. Another is announcements by professional groups, MAIs for example, again, limited dissemnation to registered appraiser only, banks, regulators, etc. So it's not all in the public domain.

    While you can sign up in an appraisal forum, it might be like getting on BP and one saying they read about lending requirements so now they could be conventioal loan originator or underwritter. That's just obsurd.

    There are a few appraisers on BP, they are the best qualified to speak about appraisals and what they want to see and when they want to see it. Pretty simple, yet there are some who argue such points based on their experience as customers or being related to a transaction..

    While I know alot about short sales (and basically did many before they were ever called shorts sales with regualted restrictions) you don't see me picking at any Realtor or investor who does them. That is not my area of expertise. If someone actually does it and has experience, then there ya go, if one only reads about it or uses it, but never does it, they are no expert.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Aaron McGinnis:
    Will - I disagree. If I'm selling at the bottom of my comps, then I believe that I'm not wringing the most out of the market and I'm doing no-one (Myself including) any favors.

    To me, "Top of the Market" means just that... I look at my highest comp and think to myself, "How can I convince an appraiser to go higher?" ... what combination of information and product features will it take for me to top my competition?

    Making the most of this market isn't about trying to scrape by with one rehab here or there, hoping to bottom out the competition. It is about targeted investing and making sure that today's sale sets up tomorrow's appraisal by pushing the market values up.

    Just MHO. Your mileage may vary.

    Aaron, very goodpoint! This is how it is done! The most expensive home in the neighborhood is never the first one built! Developers learned this long ago. You can push upwards by showing more activity in a market area. Very good point!

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Aaron McGinnis:

    Making the most of this market isn't about trying to scrape by with one rehab here or there, hoping to bottom out the competition. It is about targeted investing and making sure that today's sale sets up tomorrow's appraisal by pushing the market values up.

    This is a great point. We often buy multiple properties in a the same subdivision (we have two subdivisions where we've purchased 3 and 4 properties), and therefore it behooves us to ensure that prices keep going UP, as we're ultimately setting our own comps for future sales. In fact, it's not uncommon that 2 or 3 of the comps the appraiser uses (of the 5 or 6) are houses that we've rehabbed and sold.

    So, being lax on appraisals (just sitting back and letting the "chips falls where they may") not only hurts us on the immediate deal, but also takes money out of our pockets on many future deals.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    15y

    I agree Jason, saying "let the chips fall where they may" can be accepted after you make those reasonable attempts to justify you deal, doesn't mean that you sit there like the three monkeys, see no value, hear no value and speak no value.

    Really, there are so many variables to this subject that if almost any comment is made, it can be sliced into another aspect. I'm missing the motivation here other than attempts to appear to be top dog.

    IMO, ther are many investors and Realtors that may have appraisal knowledge, some perhaps extensive, but speaking as if they have equal knowledge as a full time appraiser is a little over the top.

    Newbies need to realize that getting into a rock throwing contest with an appraiser will put them in a losing position. They can also be reported for attempting to influence an appraisal. Just a reminder that your attempts to introduce other information has limitations.

    Jason, as I said above, you have some good points and a very good approach that has worked well for you, but IMO, it's not something you can expect any reader of this thread to accomplish on their own without a good understanding of the appraisal process. New investors should probably have their Realtor earn their commissions and take care of this aspect of selling until they have sufficient expertise.

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