House Hack Bubble and Return of the Sub Prime

House Hack Bubble and Return of the Sub Prime

Joe SplitrockPro Member
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Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes

Yesterday was an interesting day. I was at the gym and overheard a gym member talking to the trainer. He as trying to talk the trainer into buying a house. He was explaining his own house hacking experience and how he was able to "live for free". As he explained it, you just get a couple guys to pay $400 an month and you can pay your mortgage. The trainer didn't seem super interested, but still it made me think about the old saying:

"When even shoe shine boys are giving stock tips, it is time to sell." - Joseph P Kennedy

It is important to note that Joseph Kennedy profited from the stock market crash of 1929 by predicting it and this was how he knew it was coming. It is basically just commentary on the herd mentality. When you hear the common person talking about how great an investment is, it is clearly hit the mass stage of popularity. Once an investment hits mass popularity, it starts moving towards peak and eventual over saturation. The fact that "house hacking" has been popularized enough that some random guy at a small gym in my small city is talking about it, scares the crap out of me.

The rest of my day went on as normal, then when watching my nightly business news one of the lead stories was, "Return of the Sub Prime Mortgage". They said the bank Carrington isn't calling it sub prime and they referred to it as "nonprime" (OK whatever). Angel Oak and Caliber Home Loans are already offering these type of loans. 

This is how they described the loans:

1. Accept credit scores down to 500

2. For self employed do not require tax returns. Borrower can use bank statements for proof of income. (could be good for investors)

3. Foreclosure, bankruptcy and late payments on credit report are acceptable.

4. Up to $1.5M loan amount or $500K HELOC.

Full story:

http://nbr.com/2018/04/12/subprime-mortgages-make-...

They talk about the loans being targeted towards millennials. I couldn't help but draw a connection to the millenials I heard talking at the gym. It makes me wonder if all the hype around "house hacking" and financial independence is driving the hype even higher and encouraging more millennials to jump in. I see all the time on BP where a millennial with heavy student loan debt asks if they should pay off their loan or invest in real estate. The overwhelming advice is buy real estate. It makes me wonder if we are sending the herd to be slaughtered. 

Wise investors always say, when everyone is buying, I am selling, when everyone is selling I am buying.

At the same time so many of our economic fundamentals are looking great. So I am not saying the end is near. As long as unemployment is low and all these people have jobs, we are fine. The problem is when people start losing jobs or when loans are given to unqualified people.

I know these "end is near" and "are we at the peak" type posts are totally click bait. But it is fun to talk about right? Happy Friday everyone!

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Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
8y

@Joe Splitrock great discussion and they are fun to talk about, but I'd have to say most likely not...or at least the next contraction will not center around the RE markets.

1. We don't have the state/fed gov backed push to increase home ownership that planted the seeds for sub prime/ NIJA/ No Doc loans. Home ownership is back around 64%, down from a 2006 high of 70%.

2. It is hard to have a bubble when there is a housing shortage. I just finished reading that article last night it its kind of revisionist history of the 2008 credit crisis, saying that there was no over supply of housing.

3. Sub Prime loans are, in and of themselves, not bad. The  bond market is loaded with sub BB loans (Junk Bonds) it manages just fine. The issue came with the poor structuring of bond into tranches as a way of loading up sub BB bonds into pools that allegedly had a A or AA rating. The very nature of having prime loans means that you must also have sub prime loans. 

4. If you have concerns about the heard mentality and its impacts on the economy I'd look at the valuations of the FANG stocks and potential localized impact they could have a RE market.

5. Mortgage Defaults are around historical norms.

@Sam Josh Most if not all of the data you've asked about is publicly available, you just need to hunt for it. Bill McBride at Calculated Risk  does a good job of writing about most of it. Plus he is a guy who called the 2008 crisis with data instead of wild speculation used for personal gain (think Peter Schiff)

6. Out if state and foreign investors may be the new norm in primary MSAs  at least for awhile since bond yields are low (for out of state/institutional investors) and the since US markets are so much better regulated and trustworthy (Foreign investors) The former may taper off, but the latter won't change for awhile. The US isn't perfect, but we aren't on the verge of a coup or imprisoning journalist wholesale so that lends an air of perceived stability.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Sunnyvale , CA · Member since 2017 · 373 posts · 362 votes
    8y
    I wonder if there is a service one could subscribe to or access which shows: - Total value of residential mortgage debt in the US - How that debt is grouped by fixed vs ARM rates - How thar debt cuts in terms of prime vs subprime - How are the monthly payments doing (on time vs late) - Proportion of foreclosures (growing or declining) - How much of the debt is primary residence vs investment - Average loan to value estimate My point is simple. Zillow and others show one side of the market. Is there a site or source that compiles data on the mortgage debt that we could look and analyze. That would be good data driven indication of the market rather than what was said and heard at the gym.
  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
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    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Sam Josh:

    I wonder if there is a service one could subscribe to or access which shows:

    - Total value of residential mortgage debt in the US

    - How that debt is grouped by fixed vs ARM rates

    - How thar debt cuts in terms of prime vs subprime

    - How are the monthly payments doing (on time vs late)

    - Proportion of foreclosures (growing or declining)

    - How much of the debt is primary residence vs investment

    - Average loan to value estimate

    My point is simple. Zillow and others show one side of the market. Is there a site or source that compiles data on the mortgage debt that we could look and analyze. That would be good data driven indication of the market rather than what was said and heard at the gym.

    I know there are sources that track this type of data. The problem leading up to 2008 is some of the junk loans were hidden/packaged with good loans. I am sure there is a way to trend the data and the default rates specifically would be a leading indicator.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y

    @Joe Splitrock one of my partners in one of my land deals.. does just this he works for a company that does analytical for servicers and lenders to stress test their portfolios so they can predict their defaults..

    this is done by credit  zip codes  and income or jobs..

    Also you can say the same thing about BP and everyone is talking about buying rentals.. its the herd mentality and when all these folks started buying in the deep trench after the GFC they expected the 2% rule or more that's where it was spawned.. now its 1% is acceptable and next thing you will know its .05%  etc etc.. the herd is alive and well in buying rental real estate in the US>. and I for one am happy to see it.. if the herd was not buying in many markets those markets would be flatt on their 

    @$$  and devolving but with all this out of state and out of country investment it saved many many cash flow markets from implosions.. since the organic market in the actual area IE local investors is not sufficient to buy all the homes that are there.. think about that one.. !!!  :)

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y

    @Joe Splitrock  I mean you don't see CA or Oregon Brokers advertising in Sioux Falls or Memphis to buy rentals in LA or SF or Portland right ????

    but you sure see those that live in mid west markets advertising on the coasts for buyers because they don't have enough local buyers to buy the existing inventory.. I shudder to think what those areas would be like if there was no Turn key or out of area rental property investor demand...

    ?????

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
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    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Joe Splitrock  I mean you don't see CA or Oregon Brokers advertising in Sioux Falls or Memphis to buy rentals in LA or SF or Portland right ????

    but you sure see those that live in mid west markets advertising on the coasts for buyers because they don't have enough local buyers to buy the existing inventory.. I shudder to think what those areas would be like if there was no Turn key or out of area rental property investor demand...

    ?????

    That is the problem with some markets is they are being propped up by out of state investors. I suspect out of state investors are some of the first to cut bait and run when the sh1t hits the fan. Look at all the hedge funds that gobbled up houses after the crash and they have been dumping them. They know where it is headed and that it is time to cash out. Same thing with crypto or any investment that runs up. I think you just mentioned in another thread you were selling off all your rentals. Smart money runs when the herd arrives. 

    If there was no out-of-state money, housing prices would be lower in many of these markets. That would make it more affordable for first time home buyers. Investors drive up prices and make it harder for renters to become owners. I am not saying it is right or wrong, but it does help the rich get richer and the poor get stuck renting.

  • San Antonio, TX · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Joe Splitrock History does have a way of repeating itself. ;) 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Joe Splitrock  I mean you don't see CA or Oregon Brokers advertising in Sioux Falls or Memphis to buy rentals in LA or SF or Portland right ????

    but you sure see those that live in mid west markets advertising on the coasts for buyers because they don't have enough local buyers to buy the existing inventory.. I shudder to think what those areas would be like if there was no Turn key or out of area rental property investor demand...

    ?????

    That is the problem with some markets is they are being propped up by out of state investors. I suspect out of state investors are some of the first to cut bait and run when the sh1t hits the fan. Look at all the hedge funds that gobbled up houses after the crash and they have been dumping them. They know where it is headed and that it is time to cash out. Same thing with crypto or any investment that runs up. I think you just mentioned in another thread you were selling off all your rentals. Smart money runs when the herd arrives. 

    If there was no out-of-state money, housing prices would be lower in many of these markets. That would make it more affordable for first time home buyers. Investors drive up prices and make it harder for renters to become owners. I am not saying it is right or wrong, but it does help the rich get richer and the poor get stuck renting.

    Joe good discussion.

    the issue I see is in many of the CASH flow markets half the population will never buy a home no matter what and for these reasons.

    1. their credit will never allow it.

    2. unstable

    3. they think its a liablity

    4. Schools suck who wants to own there.

    5. Crime

    so with rents basically 700 to 900 these days.. that same renter IF they wanted to be a home owner is going to look at the highest price thing they can and will not buy in most of those areas.

    Even though you have say a 50k home if they bought it payment would be 250 to 300 they won't do it.. they will buy the 100 to 125k home and spend the 900.. they like anyone else does not want to live in those areas as homeowners.

    once these neighborhoods go rental that's it the value is only as good as the rent even though we can value SFRs using cap rates.. the reality is that's exactly how they are valued in those areas.

  • Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    One thing with house hacking it almost isn't really investing. It's a way for young people to save money on living expenses. I knew a college age guy 30 years ago who did this, before it was 'house hacking'. Probably lots of people who 'house hack' will never buy more investment properties.

  • Mike ReynoldsPro Member
    construction · Nacogdoches, TX · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    Was just looking at angel oak mentioned in the article. They will do subprime on 2nd homes and investment property. Wonder how that will turn out?

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
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    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Eric James:

    One thing with house hacking it almost isn't really investing. It's a way for young people to save money on living expenses. I knew a college age guy 30 years ago who did this, before it was 'house hacking'. Probably lots of people who 'house hack' will never buy more investment properties.

    I agree. I knew someone doing this 20 years ago. Renting rooms is nothing new, although the "house hack" term makes it sound like some new idea. I am just wondering if it becomes too popular and unqualified people are getting loans, what type of trouble that could lead too. Combine it with student loans and there could be a dangerous combination brewing.  

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Mike Reynolds:

    Was just looking at angel oak mentioned in the article. They will do subprime on 2nd homes and investment property. Wonder how that will turn out?

     I can't think of any possible problem with this. Home values go up forever, right?

  • Mike ReynoldsPro Member
    construction · Nacogdoches, TX · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Joe Splitrock  I mean you don't see CA or Oregon Brokers advertising in Sioux Falls or Memphis to buy rentals in LA or SF or Portland right ????

    but you sure see those that live in mid west markets advertising on the coasts for buyers because they don't have enough local buyers to buy the existing inventory.. I shudder to think what those areas would be like if there was no Turn key or out of area rental property investor demand...

    ?????

    I quoted because I am on my phone and it won't let me tag. 

    How does a lender make money on sub prime at 5% with a 90% ltv? And a 500 credit score to boot. 

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
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    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Mike Reynolds:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Joe Splitrock  I mean you don't see CA or Oregon Brokers advertising in Sioux Falls or Memphis to buy rentals in LA or SF or Portland right ????

    but you sure see those that live in mid west markets advertising on the coasts for buyers because they don't have enough local buyers to buy the existing inventory.. I shudder to think what those areas would be like if there was no Turn key or out of area rental property investor demand...

    ?????

    I quoted because I am on my phone and it won't let me tag. 

    How does a lender make money on sub prime at 5% with a 90% ltv? And a 500 credit score to boot. 

    Lenders make money writing the loan with fees. Very few lenders actually hold the loan long term. Then they package up the loans and sell them off to investors. A big package of loans is considered less risky. What happened in the crash of 2008 is the packages of loans were junk with high default. Banks were holding worthless assets without cash to back them up. It is more complicated than that, but that is a simplified explanation.

    And one more thing. Sub prime borrowers pay higher rates than prime borrowers. Higher risk, higher rate.

  • Mike ReynoldsPro Member
    construction · Nacogdoches, TX · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
    Originally posted by @Mike Reynolds:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Joe Splitrock  I mean you don't see CA or Oregon Brokers advertising in Sioux Falls or Memphis to buy rentals in LA or SF or Portland right ????

    but you sure see those that live in mid west markets advertising on the coasts for buyers because they don't have enough local buyers to buy the existing inventory.. I shudder to think what those areas would be like if there was no Turn key or out of area rental property investor demand...

    ?????

    I quoted because I am on my phone and it won't let me tag. 

    How does a lender make money on sub prime at 5% with a 90% ltv? And a 500 credit score to boot. 

    Lenders make money writing the loan with fees. Very few lenders actually hold the loan long term. Then they package up the loans and sell them off to investors. A big package of loans is considered less risky. What happened in the crash of 2008 is the packages of loans were junk with high default. Banks were holding worthless assets without cash to back them up. It is more complicated than that, but that is a simplified explanation.

    And one more thing. Sub prime borrowers pay higher rates than prime borrowers. Higher risk, higher rate.

    Ok so they get the points and the investors get the rate. Is that right? It did say rates on sub prime started at 5 but thinking of if they could get a 5 they wouldn't need soon prime. 

    That would be cheap "hard" money for 5% and 90% ltv. Pay it off in thirty years and no prepayment penalty. If it sounds to good to be true it most like likely is. 

  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    @Joe Splitrock great discussion and they are fun to talk about, but I'd have to say most likely not...or at least the next contraction will not center around the RE markets.

    1. We don't have the state/fed gov backed push to increase home ownership that planted the seeds for sub prime/ NIJA/ No Doc loans. Home ownership is back around 64%, down from a 2006 high of 70%.

    2. It is hard to have a bubble when there is a housing shortage. I just finished reading that article last night it its kind of revisionist history of the 2008 credit crisis, saying that there was no over supply of housing.

    3. Sub Prime loans are, in and of themselves, not bad. The  bond market is loaded with sub BB loans (Junk Bonds) it manages just fine. The issue came with the poor structuring of bond into tranches as a way of loading up sub BB bonds into pools that allegedly had a A or AA rating. The very nature of having prime loans means that you must also have sub prime loans. 

    4. If you have concerns about the heard mentality and its impacts on the economy I'd look at the valuations of the FANG stocks and potential localized impact they could have a RE market.

    5. Mortgage Defaults are around historical norms.

    @Sam Josh Most if not all of the data you've asked about is publicly available, you just need to hunt for it. Bill McBride at Calculated Risk  does a good job of writing about most of it. Plus he is a guy who called the 2008 crisis with data instead of wild speculation used for personal gain (think Peter Schiff)

    6. Out if state and foreign investors may be the new norm in primary MSAs  at least for awhile since bond yields are low (for out of state/institutional investors) and the since US markets are so much better regulated and trustworthy (Foreign investors) The former may taper off, but the latter won't change for awhile. The US isn't perfect, but we aren't on the verge of a coup or imprisoning journalist wholesale so that lends an air of perceived stability.

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Mike Reynolds:
    Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
    Originally posted by @Mike Reynolds:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Joe Splitrock  I mean you don't see CA or Oregon Brokers advertising in Sioux Falls or Memphis to buy rentals in LA or SF or Portland right ????

    but you sure see those that live in mid west markets advertising on the coasts for buyers because they don't have enough local buyers to buy the existing inventory.. I shudder to think what those areas would be like if there was no Turn key or out of area rental property investor demand...

    ?????

    I quoted because I am on my phone and it won't let me tag. 

    How does a lender make money on sub prime at 5% with a 90% ltv? And a 500 credit score to boot. 

    Lenders make money writing the loan with fees. Very few lenders actually hold the loan long term. Then they package up the loans and sell them off to investors. A big package of loans is considered less risky. What happened in the crash of 2008 is the packages of loans were junk with high default. Banks were holding worthless assets without cash to back them up. It is more complicated than that, but that is a simplified explanation.

    And one more thing. Sub prime borrowers pay higher rates than prime borrowers. Higher risk, higher rate.

    Ok so they get the points and the investors get the rate. Is that right? It did say rates on sub prime started at 5 but thinking of if they could get a 5 they wouldn't need soon prime. 

    That would be cheap "hard" money for 5% and 90% ltv. Pay it off in thirty years and no prepayment penalty. If it sounds to good to be true it most like likely is. 

    They claim to be good at analyzing lower risk from higher risk people. I am sure if it is 90% LTV that their mortgage insurance to cover the gap. I am guessing the rates partially depend on credit score and risk level. I know people who work in sub prime credit cards and all the money is made in fees and high interest rates. High default rate, but those who don't default more than make up for those who do.

  • Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    I see some saturation of investors in a couple small cities where I have rentals. Duplexes (or larger) sell for around 115 times rents, while SFH can sell for 65-70 times rent. I interpret this to indicate there are a lot of people who want to buy 'investment properties.

  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

    Yesterday was an interesting day. I was at the gym and overheard a gym member talking to the trainer. He as trying to talk the trainer into buying a house. He was explaining his own house hacking experience and how he was able to "live for free". As he explained it, you just get a couple guys to pay $400 an month and you can pay your mortgage. The trainer didn't seem super interested, but still it made me think about the old saying:

    "When even shoe shine boys are giving stock tips, it is time to sell." - Joseph P Kennedy

    It is important to note that Joseph Kennedy profited from the stock market crash of 1929 by predicting it and this was how he knew it was coming. It is basically just commentary on the herd mentality. When you hear the common person talking about how great an investment is, it is clearly hit the mass stage of popularity. Once an investment hits mass popularity, it starts moving towards peak and eventual over saturation. The fact that "house hacking" has been popularized enough that some random guy at a small gym in my small city is talking about it, scares the crap out of me.

    The rest of my day went on as normal, then when watching my nightly business news one of the lead stories was, "Return of the Sub Prime Mortgage". They said the bank Carrington isn't calling it sub prime and they referred to it as "nonprime" (OK whatever). Angel Oak and Caliber Home Loans are already offering these type of loans. 

    This is how they described the loans:

    1. Accept credit scores down to 500

    2. For self employed do not require tax returns. Borrower can use bank statements for proof of income. (could be good for investors)

    3. Foreclosure, bankruptcy and late payments on credit report are acceptable.

    4. Up to $1.5M loan amount or $500K HELOC.

    Full story:

    http://nbr.com/2018/04/12/subprime-mortgages-make-...

    They talk about the loans being targeted towards millennials. I couldn't help but draw a connection to the millenials I heard talking at the gym. It makes me wonder if all the hype around "house hacking" and financial independence is driving the hype even higher and encouraging more millennials to jump in. I see all the time on BP where a millennial with heavy student loan debt asks if they should pay off their loan or invest in real estate. The overwhelming advice is buy real estate. It makes me wonder if we are sending the herd to be slaughtered. 

    Wise investors always say, when everyone is buying, I am selling, when everyone is selling I am buying.

    At the same time so many of our economic fundamentals are looking great. So I am not saying the end is near. As long as unemployment is low and all these people have jobs, we are fine. The problem is when people start losing jobs or when loans are given to unqualified people.

    I know these "end is near" and "are we at the peak" type posts are totally click bait. But it is fun to talk about right? Happy Friday everyone!

    Carrington's are just vanilla FHA loans, with 10% down instead of 3.5% down, last I checked. Requiring 580 or 620 FICO scores for FHA is, and always has been, an overlay. They're balancing the FICO risk with a lower LTV. Some people have a 514 FICO simply because they made the mistake of getting sick or injured in America and didn't budget for the medical bill payments - I don't feel that this should shut the door to homeownership to them.

    Angel Oak's stuff gets a lot of attention, but very very few people actually meet their criteria. This is nowhere near "have pulse -> get loan" status. It is true they do 500 FICOs and 90% LTV and recent foreclosure, but they don't do 90% LTV and 500 FICO and recent foreclosure at the same time, for example. 500 FICO due to recent foreclosure... you're looking at 70% LTV. Such a person with 30% down could easily get financed even without AO, using hard money. In fact, every time I've encountered a scenario where AO is a good fit, it's someone that could easily get hard money anyways, this is just going to be at a far far better rate/points combo. And, hey, maybe those of you currently using HML will start to see HML rates improve as AE continues to compete. They do 80% LTV on 2-4 unit investments, but with your choice of a prepayment penalty or a couple points.

  • Investor · Hoffman Estates, IL · Member since 2014 · 434 posts · 185 votes
    8y

    I just found out that there's a secondary market for hard money fix & flip loans.  That's scary!   It's a sign of the times...

  • Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 184 posts · 87 votes
    8y
    The articles I’ve read stipulated greater than 25% DP for these non-primes. Don’t know how accurate that is but it made me less concerned.
  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    8y

    Good post.

    The tough part is that idle cash and a war chest strategy can be costly.  Invest $100, add $20 in value, market goes down $20, but you have cash flow and principal reduction along the way resulting in a positive return.  The returns are low but more than $0 with idle cash.

    If the market does not turn, or it turns less than $20, or takes many years to turn, returns can be okay to excellent.

    It's hard to invest into a hot market, model assumptions that include a correction, get excited about a 6-12% IRR and pull the trigger...many hold cash instead at a 0% return. I wrestle with this myself in spite of the math. Many investors also don't/can't add value and, therefore, can't absorb the correction and generate a positive return.

    My comments are geared more towards cash flow than market value plays.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Scot Howat:

    I just found out that there's a secondary market for hard money fix & flip loans.  That's scary!   It's a sign of the times...

    this has been around for years its not new.. back in the day when I had my HML company I had 4 banks that lodged my paper..

    Peer st is a classic of this .. these days  on the crowd funding front.. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Eric James:

    One thing with house hacking it almost isn't really investing. It's a way for young people to save money on living expenses. I knew a college age guy 30 years ago who did this, before it was 'house hacking'. Probably lots of people who 'house hack' will never buy more investment properties.

     house hack is especially useful in high priced markets like Austin SF  LA  NY  north side Chicago etc.

    and then when you move on you have a 2 or 4 unit or a home.

    keep in mind a SFR in Cupertino CA will rent 2 to the bed room for 1 to 1.5 thousand a man.. TRUE

    so 4 bd home can bring in 8 to 10k a month.

  • Walnut Creek, CA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    Fannie also fairly recently allows Airbnb incone to be counted now too 

  • Rental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 118 posts · 98 votes
    8y

    I'm reading a book ("This Time Is Different") about past bubbles, and found the below paragraph really interesting. Just figured I would share since it seemed relevant to the discussion.

    "Our immersion in the details of crises that have arisen over the past eight centuries and in data on them has led us to conclude that the most commonly repeated and most expensive investment advice ever given in the boom just before a financial crisis stems from the perception that 'this time is different.' That advice, that the old rules of valuation no longer apply, is usually followed up with vigor. Financial professionals and, all too often, government leaders explain that we are doing things better than before, we are smarter, and we have learned from past mistakes. Each time, society convinces itself that the current boom, unlike the many booms that preceded catastrophic collapses in the past, is built on sound fundamentals, structural reforms, technological innovation, and good policy"

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