House Hack Bubble and Return of the Sub Prime

House Hack Bubble and Return of the Sub Prime

Joe SplitrockPro Member
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Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes

Yesterday was an interesting day. I was at the gym and overheard a gym member talking to the trainer. He as trying to talk the trainer into buying a house. He was explaining his own house hacking experience and how he was able to "live for free". As he explained it, you just get a couple guys to pay $400 an month and you can pay your mortgage. The trainer didn't seem super interested, but still it made me think about the old saying:

"When even shoe shine boys are giving stock tips, it is time to sell." - Joseph P Kennedy

It is important to note that Joseph Kennedy profited from the stock market crash of 1929 by predicting it and this was how he knew it was coming. It is basically just commentary on the herd mentality. When you hear the common person talking about how great an investment is, it is clearly hit the mass stage of popularity. Once an investment hits mass popularity, it starts moving towards peak and eventual over saturation. The fact that "house hacking" has been popularized enough that some random guy at a small gym in my small city is talking about it, scares the crap out of me.

The rest of my day went on as normal, then when watching my nightly business news one of the lead stories was, "Return of the Sub Prime Mortgage". They said the bank Carrington isn't calling it sub prime and they referred to it as "nonprime" (OK whatever). Angel Oak and Caliber Home Loans are already offering these type of loans. 

This is how they described the loans:

1. Accept credit scores down to 500

2. For self employed do not require tax returns. Borrower can use bank statements for proof of income. (could be good for investors)

3. Foreclosure, bankruptcy and late payments on credit report are acceptable.

4. Up to $1.5M loan amount or $500K HELOC.

Full story:

http://nbr.com/2018/04/12/subprime-mortgages-make-...

They talk about the loans being targeted towards millennials. I couldn't help but draw a connection to the millenials I heard talking at the gym. It makes me wonder if all the hype around "house hacking" and financial independence is driving the hype even higher and encouraging more millennials to jump in. I see all the time on BP where a millennial with heavy student loan debt asks if they should pay off their loan or invest in real estate. The overwhelming advice is buy real estate. It makes me wonder if we are sending the herd to be slaughtered. 

Wise investors always say, when everyone is buying, I am selling, when everyone is selling I am buying.

At the same time so many of our economic fundamentals are looking great. So I am not saying the end is near. As long as unemployment is low and all these people have jobs, we are fine. The problem is when people start losing jobs or when loans are given to unqualified people.

I know these "end is near" and "are we at the peak" type posts are totally click bait. But it is fun to talk about right? Happy Friday everyone!

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Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
8y

@Joe Splitrock great discussion and they are fun to talk about, but I'd have to say most likely not...or at least the next contraction will not center around the RE markets.

1. We don't have the state/fed gov backed push to increase home ownership that planted the seeds for sub prime/ NIJA/ No Doc loans. Home ownership is back around 64%, down from a 2006 high of 70%.

2. It is hard to have a bubble when there is a housing shortage. I just finished reading that article last night it its kind of revisionist history of the 2008 credit crisis, saying that there was no over supply of housing.

3. Sub Prime loans are, in and of themselves, not bad. The  bond market is loaded with sub BB loans (Junk Bonds) it manages just fine. The issue came with the poor structuring of bond into tranches as a way of loading up sub BB bonds into pools that allegedly had a A or AA rating. The very nature of having prime loans means that you must also have sub prime loans. 

4. If you have concerns about the heard mentality and its impacts on the economy I'd look at the valuations of the FANG stocks and potential localized impact they could have a RE market.

5. Mortgage Defaults are around historical norms.

@Sam Josh Most if not all of the data you've asked about is publicly available, you just need to hunt for it. Bill McBride at Calculated Risk  does a good job of writing about most of it. Plus he is a guy who called the 2008 crisis with data instead of wild speculation used for personal gain (think Peter Schiff)

6. Out if state and foreign investors may be the new norm in primary MSAs  at least for awhile since bond yields are low (for out of state/institutional investors) and the since US markets are so much better regulated and trustworthy (Foreign investors) The former may taper off, but the latter won't change for awhile. The US isn't perfect, but we aren't on the verge of a coup or imprisoning journalist wholesale so that lends an air of perceived stability.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    I'm reading a book ("This Time Is Different") about past bubbles, and found the below paragraph really interesting. Just figured I would share since it seemed relevant to the discussion.

    "Our immersion in the details of crises that have arisen over the past eight centuries and in data on them has led us to conclude that the most commonly repeated and most expensive investment advice ever given in the boom just before a financial crisis stems from the perception that 'this time is different.' That advice, that the old rules of valuation no longer apply, is usually followed up with vigor. Financial professionals and, all too often, government leaders explain that we are doing things better than before, we are smarter, and we have learned from past mistakes. Each time, society convinces itself that the current boom, unlike the many booms that preceded catastrophic collapses in the past, is built on sound fundamentals, structural reforms, technological innovation, and good policy"

    my kids say the same thing...

  • Bryce StewartPro Member
    Investor · Bethlehem, PA · Member since 2018 · 7 posts · 20 votes
    8y

    I've wondered about this, too - about whether I should sell now while I can get "top dollar" for my MFR's. But I can never see the down side in holding:

    1) I purchased my rentals and improved the condition for cash flow, NOT in the speculative hope that their appraisal values would climb infinitely. They're not tulips, and I'm not looking for the "Greater Fool" to come along and bail me out. Frankly, I don't really care what anyone says they're worth, as long as they continue to rent. The only thing that would threaten their cash flow abilities would be if my local economy suddenly flopped, and no one wanted to live there anymore. But I'm in a 800,000+ MSA, not a "company town", so there's sufficient diversification of multi-industry employment. It might be different in Bumbletucky. 

    2) Let's follow the logic to its end point...there's a market crash or correction in the banking or real estate markets, universally, nationwide. Suddenly....what? People don't need to live somewhere anymore? They stop renting because banks become stingy with mortgages again? If anything, another market correction is going to shake more people into the rental markets, which will drive profits up. As many have already stated, there's a housing shortage (particularly in apartments) nationwide. The only thing that worries me is oversupply, which doesn't appear to be materializing. Unless Amazon moves into the RE market, and starts stacking shipping containers, renting them to millenials as studio apts, and undercutting me on price, I'm going to be good. 

    3) On the other hand, if liquidity dries up nationwide, as it did in 2007-9, I suppose the worst case scenario is that my bank doesn't want to refinance a few of my 5/20 year/am term loans. Still, my LTV's improve with every passing month, and I have a hard time believing any bank would turn down an 815 FICO with $2.4M in cash-flowing RE collateral for a loan. I guess I could get hurt a bit if rates are high when that happens, but in a 'crash', the Fed is going to bring rates back down.

    4) The real threat seems to be in overpaying for a SFH or MFH in a market with less than stellar growth prospects.

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    Subprime is interesting.  On the positive, there are more analytics that are available to this kind of lending.  2006 lending was pure sloppiness.  Subprime's return is another sign that lending is loosening.  Availability of loans has been difficult for lower middle class neighborhoods for the last ten years.  Many of these homes have a lower mortgage than rent.  I'd expect the value of these homes to go up if this really catches on.  And more homes will convert from rental back to home ownership.  Subprime loans always are leaders in foreclosure rates.  The next question is can those loans be securitized.  Hopefully subprime returns, remains a niche, but doesn't create financial instability like the last crash.

  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    @Bryce Stewart All great points, but #3 could happen again. Unless you have the capital to cover the notes you stand a very real chance of losing those properties if banks behave like they did in 2008. I used to work for a developer who, in 2008-9, couldn't refi a NNN property where the shortest lease had like 2 years left. His net worth sat in the low-mid eight figures. I can see a few scenarios where banks would turn down an 815 FICO with $2.4M in cash-flowing RE collateral for a loan.

    "The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent."

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Bill F.:

    @Bryce Stewart All great points, but #3 could happen again. Unless you have the capital to cover the notes you stand a very real chance of losing those properties if banks behave like they did in 2008. I used to work for a developer who, in 2008-9, couldn't refi a NNN property where the shortest lease had like 2 years left. His net worth sat in the low-mid eight figures. I can see a few scenarios where banks would turn down an 815 FICO with $2.4M in cash-flowing RE collateral for a loan.

    "The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent."

     this was a very very real scenario that caught many a developer in a pickle or syndicator or what have you.

    Ken Harter in Oregon was the largest player in the senior housing space he needed to refi in 09 about 1b or more in loans that had the 5 year calls...  could not get the loans.. existing debt would not refi ( banks were frozen) largest bankruptcy in Oregon history. and his properties were nationwide.

    OPUS out of Minniapolis MUTLI BILLION dollar shopping center Multi Fam developer etc.. VERY successful.. BANKO had too much debt in places like PHX etc.. could not refi or sell.. BANKO

    we were struggling in our little lending company 4 out of 5 of my banks called my Lines of credit.. when non of them were in trouble.. just would not renew had to pay back close to 20 million.. which basically put us from a 30 man/women company living life large.. to my old partner and 2 of the last remaining staff to run the company at a shell of what it was and I moved on to other things.. as that company did not have enough capital to earn enough money to pay me LOL.. etc.  I had so many people calling in those years HELP my apartment loan will not renew what do I do its a great property and its current.

    Now most of the folks on BP are new and started after 08 and that's great for them .. and I am not predicting this in any manner.. and many have nice 30 year fixed.. but those that buy on 20 due and 5 there is real risk as remote as it is.. just because a bank rolls one 5 year over does not mean for a minute they will roll the next..

    then you had a Hedge fund like Rialto buying all this bad paper and just stomping on these owners.. people I knew were forced into bankruptcy  Rialto would not deal .. and to make matters worse that company got 5 B of tarp money.. so our tax payer dollars was creating this huge win for these guys.. it was ugly.. but its all good now.. LOL.

    refi to you die max leverage and scale up.. right ????

  • Bryce StewartPro Member
    Investor · Bethlehem, PA · Member since 2018 · 7 posts · 20 votes
    8y

    @Bill F. - Hmmmm...good considerations. Do you think such an occurrence was something that happens with every market downturn/correction, or do you think it was because of the monumental nature of the Great Recession? 

  • Sunnyvale , CA · Member since 2017 · 373 posts · 362 votes
    8y

    Thank you @Bill F., calculated risk is awesome.

  • Newport News, VA · Member since 2016 · 42 posts · 19 votes
    8y

    As a millenial, I rarely run into peers that have an interest in house hacking, but I preach it to everyone that will listen. 
    I think you just happen to go to the gym with a like minded individual. 

    House hacking is a lot more of a "recession resistant" buying strategy than just buying a massive SFR at the top of your budget. (like most of my peers are doing) Even if a significant % of the millenial population bought small multi's for cashflow, I can't see how that would make the market anything but MORE stable. its hard to default when your mortgage is paid for you.

    according to a quick and lazy google search defaults are at a low. I think its a little early to call tops. 

    and even at the top, cashflow is cashflow.

    Good post

  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Bryce Stewart:

    @Bill F. - Hmmmm...good considerations. Do you think such an occurrence was something that happens with every market downturn/correction, or do you think it was because of the monumental nature of the Great Recession? 

     Maybe, maybe not, every "crisis" has its own unique causes and effects.  If the next down turn has more in common with the Russian Ruble Crisis, then vanilla lending most likely won't see a large impact. But what if its more similar to the S&L crisis? 

    Asking will banks lend or not lend is an difficult/unanswerable question. Having a plan if they don't lend is a much better use of your time if you ask me. 

    Take the guy I used to work for: He got a securities based loan, paid off the balloon, pulled ALL of his cash from the bank (including his IRA) and went on his merry way. Guess who was coming on site asking if he was around and had gotten their calls about 8-12 months later? The bankers (yes a banker on a construction site, you don't see that every day)

    Now not all of us have that specific options since his balance sheet and credit/reputation could move the needle at a mid sized regional bank, but that's not the point. 

    He didn't have answers, but he had options. He's a guy who spent his whole life getting/making loans, buying/selling/building high end developments and he didn't see the causes of 2008 coming. He survived since he knew that his loans not getting refied was a possibility and he planned options. 

    Having cash is always a great option, particularly in black swan events.

  • Investor · Arlington, VA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 491 votes
    8y

    This is such an interesting discussion.  I'm a millennial who has been house hacking since 2009.  It's been an incredible way to reduce expenses and supercharge my savings rate.  I've amassed a portfolio of $2M myself using this strategy.  However, like the person listening at the gym in @Joe Splitrock's story, most people I talk to are definitely not interested in applying this technique to their own life.  And if there is interest, they then generally give excuses as to why they can't do it.  In that sense, I don't think we in trouble with this sort of talk.  

    Speaking of @Jay Hinrichs selling off assets, it seems to be that since he is still trading notes, he still has faith in the RE space.  I honestly think this is where the smart money is going, not because we are in a bubble, but because the returns are so much more passive.  I'm starting to do my research because this is where I need to be :)

    @Jay Hinrichs I've been struggling with the leverage piece myself.  Are you saying that 70 - 75% leveraged is dangerous?  Also, during the housing crisis, were loans be called early (including HELOCs), or were they just not being extended?  

  • Rental Property Investor · DFW, TX · Member since 2013 · 953 posts · 910 votes
    8y

    I would highly recommend reading The Big Short by Michael Lewis, then watch the movie again. The problem wasn't as much the subprime loans as it was what the big banks did with them by packaging them into terrible products called CDOs and synthetic CDOs. Once they ran out of loans to make they lowered the standards and pushed them onto the ignorant to make more in fees. Then, because that wasn't enough, they basically started betting on them and that compounded the problem. The saddest part is the US taxpayer paid for the big banks to get bailed out and they carried on as usual. It really boils down to knowing what you are investing in. We here all know real estate (or are trying to learn) so as long as you buy for cashflow and properly manage your risk, you lessen the impact the greedy people on Wall street can affect your own personal wealth. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Joe Splitrock one of my partners in one of my land deals.. does just this he works for a company that does analytical for servicers and lenders to stress test their portfolios so they can predict their defaults..

    this is done by credit  zip codes  and income or jobs..

    Also you can say the same thing about BP and everyone is talking about buying rentals.. its the herd mentality and when all these folks started buying in the deep trench after the GFC they expected the 2% rule or more that's where it was spawned.. now its 1% is acceptable and next thing you will know its .05%  etc etc.. the herd is alive and well in buying rental real estate in the US>. and I for one am happy to see it.. if the herd was not buying in many markets those markets would be flatt on their 

    @$$  and devolving but with all this out of state and out of country investment it saved many many cash flow markets from implosions.. since the organic market in the actual area IE local investors is not sufficient to buy all the homes that are there.. think about that one.. !!!  :)

     Totally! Lest we forget - markets are cyclical. As in - always! So to think that history won't repeat itself is just silly. Of course it will. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y

    @Frankie Woods  I am older and retiring from rentals.. its a personal choice I have been selling for the last 5 years sold almost 400 doors..

    I have been in Notes since the middle 80s and will continue.. most real estate transaction have two componants  equity and debt.. I just choose to be on the debt side and let all you land lords handle the heavy lifting.. I like being the bank..

    I am in no way advocating that people need or should sell their rentals its a personal decision on my part. at one time I wanted to own 5,000 doors and had things gone a little different I might have actually got there.

    Now other opportunities have surfaced over the last 5 to 6 years that are more fun for me.

    Also my kids Grand kids have no real interest in landlording.. and I have invested in path of progress dirt in some stratic areas that will more than take care of their future schooling and other needs and if one comes in .. they will actually probably be set for life with no work on their part.. just sell to a big developer and call it a day.. those kind of deals have about ZERO interest to most on BP who are cash flow driven or think or want ONLY cash flow.. so no need to even go down that road.

    I do believe and have seen over the years that 75 to 80% LTV if you have to liquidate is really no equity at all.. given sales costs buyer credits home inspections that require work up dating and recapture.. So when someone thinks they have a net worth of X and its all based on 25% equity at todays values unless its prime markets.. like SF bay area Seattle NY Charleston LA etc etc I see that as no equity personally.. when you own a note you have 100% equity as long as your buying your notes at less than 70% LTV with good performing borrowers which is what we do.

  • Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Frankie Woods  

    I am in no way advocating that people need or should sell their rentals its a personal decision on my part. at one time I wanted to own 5,000 doors and had things gone a little different I might have actually got there.

    I haven't seen you write much about this. When you wanted 5000 doors what kind of mix did you want of single family, small multi, and/or larger multis?

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2010 · 739 posts · 372 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
    Originally posted by @Mike Reynolds:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Joe Splitrock  I mean you don't see CA or Oregon Brokers advertising in Sioux Falls or Memphis to buy rentals in LA or SF or Portland right ????

    but you sure see those that live in mid west markets advertising on the coasts for buyers because they don't have enough local buyers to buy the existing inventory.. I shudder to think what those areas would be like if there was no Turn key or out of area rental property investor demand...

    ?????

    I quoted because I am on my phone and it won't let me tag. 

    How does a lender make money on sub prime at 5% with a 90% ltv? And a 500 credit score to boot. 

    Lenders make money writing the loan with fees. Very few lenders actually hold the loan long term. Then they package up the loans and sell them off to investors. A big package of loans is considered less risky. What happened in the crash of 2008 is the packages of loans were junk with high default. Banks were holding worthless assets without cash to back them up. It is more complicated than that, but that is a simplified explanation.

    And one more thing. Sub prime borrowers pay higher rates than prime borrowers. Higher risk, higher rate.

     Big short 101

  • Investor · Arlington, VA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 491 votes
    8y

    Thanks for the thoughtful / thorough reply @Jay Hinrichs!   Completely makes sense to me.  And I wish more BP members were more interested in doing things outside of Cash Flow...but the FI movement is thriving...not that wanting FI is a bad thing.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Eric James:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Frankie Woods  

    I am in no way advocating that people need or should sell their rentals its a personal decision on my part. at one time I wanted to own 5,000 doors and had things gone a little different I might have actually got there.

    I haven't seen you write much about this. When you wanted 5000 doors what kind of mix did you want of single family, small multi, and/or larger multis?

    I was making a run on SFR's issues were when Buffet made that statement that Is now famous.. IE I or we should buy 300,000 houses.. this sent the hedge funds into buying frenzy. and the markets I was in we got our butts kicked by the hedge funds at the courthouse steps.

    plus capital was tougher to raise in 2011 when I was doing this.. we acquired from 2011 to 2013 and then sold the bulk in fall of 2013  and then just selling off the remaining personal rentals I have.. down to two of them.. In 6 months I start collecting social security and my life is set .. my wife as well.. so we will be double SS recievers so just need all the millennials to keep working hard so our SS is their for the rest of our life.. :) 

  • Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @Eric James:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Frankie Woods  

    I am in no way advocating that people need or should sell their rentals its a personal decision on my part. at one time I wanted to own 5,000 doors and had things gone a little different I might have actually got there.

    I haven't seen you write much about this. When you wanted 5000 doors what kind of mix did you want of single family, small multi, and/or larger multis?

    I was making a run on SFR's issues were when Buffet made that statement that Is now famous.. IE I or we should buy 300,000 houses.. this sent the hedge funds into buying frenzy. and the markets I was in we got our butts kicked by the hedge funds at the courthouse steps.

    plus capital was tougher to raise in 2011 when I was doing this.. we acquired from 2011 to 2013 and then sold the bulk in fall of 2013  and then just selling off the remaining personal rentals I have.. down to two of them.. In 6 months I start collecting social security and my life is set .. my wife as well.. so we will be double SS recievers so just need all the millennials to keep working hard so our SS is their for the rest of our life.. :) 

    I see. Sounds like you weren't a buy and hold investor, but were speculating on all the foreclosures available at the time. From what I've heard from you it sounds like you've made a great career jumping from one short term niche opportunity to another. 

    Too bad there are only going to be 3 or 4 workers paying into SS for each person collecting.

  • Investor · Grand Junction, CO · Member since 2017 · 207 posts · 201 votes
    8y

     That doesn't really affect people currently drawing SS, and probably won't affect those within a year or two of drawing.  It is us unlucky folk that are still 25 years or more from drawing that are getting ripped off.  We will pay in, but not collect much at all.  

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Eric C.:

     That doesn't really affect people currently drawing SS, and probably won't affect those within a year or two of drawing.  It is us unlucky folk that are still 25 years or more from drawing that are getting ripped off.  We will pay in, but not collect much at all.  

     well we earned it.. put our kids through collage with no student debt time for them to make money and pay into the system so I can retire on SS

  • Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    People often talk about how small rent increases in MF properties can greatly increase their value. This thread has made me think about how the opposite can apply. A small decrease in rents (for whatever reason) would result in a lot of lost equity. That isn't mentioned much.

  • Lender · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 549 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Scot Howat:

    I just found out that there's a secondary market for hard money fix & flip loans.  That's scary!   It's a sign of the times...

    It's actually a pretty good bet. The foreclosure rates on HML are miniscule, relatively speaking. That's because borrowers have options to pay off the HML, like refinancing into something longer term if they can't sell, or worst case, selling off the investment property before $h1t hits the fan. Just encountered a situation this week where a lender in Philly "didn't want to" foreclose on a guy who purchased an 8 unit property, so the lender found another buyer, who is going to take it over. Happens all the time.

    Plus, with the short term nature of things, you can kind of see the light at the end of the tunnel.  

    There's a VORACIOUS appetite for these loans.  

  • Lender · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 549 votes
    8y

    I've been reading this thread and enjoying it.

    Just have to say, and I'm DEFINITEY NOT an expert in any sense, but while "history tends to repeat itself" is a useful maxim, it's also sort of silly. 

    History can really only do one of two things: go positive/go negative.  So if there's some type of financial crash that affects real estate, banks, or anything else, someone will say, "You see?  History always repeats itself."

    But that doesn't mean a crash, or correction, is in some way related directly to real estate.

    During the "GFC" 3 of my closest friends worked at major financial insitutions, and I knew at least 20 people working at the banks.  Living in Jersey City/NYC was FUGGED UP!  My closest friend was one of the top guys on the trading desk for Merrill's SP Mortgage Bonds.  Michael Lewis seemingly tried to crap on their heads, specifically.  The guy who committed the LARGEST TRADING LOSS IN HISTORY is my buddy's brother in law.  JP Morgan gave him 40 Million to leave...what a country...

    Yet those guys, believe it, or not, learned from that.  Those who survived recognize the pitfalls, etc.  So what type of real estate correction could create THAT situation again?  No situation?  Yeah, pretty much.

    The GFC was a once-in-a-lifetime scenario.  That's not to say it can't happen again, but lets not assume a "correction" is equal to what that was.  It won't be.  We just think to ourselves, "Oh, that happened, so it can happen again..."  

    Yeah, it can, but it won't be for a LONG *** TIME. 

    The next closest thing would be if the world was devoid of silicon and couldn't make microchips.  Or the internet just stopped working.  We're talking monumental! 

    I read a lot of those books when it was happening (Too Big to Fail, Diary of a Very Bad Year, Big Short, Eight Days, My Girlfriend Hated Me Because I Keep Talking About This Stuff, But She's a Moron), and you can tell that what happened was a perfect storm.  So while we can expect storms, I think it's an overstatement to think THAT can happen again.  

    It's like, terrorists didn't "blow up our buildings."  They flew planes into them.  Ok, we locked the planes down, so now what can they do?  They were willing to die.  So now they have to hijack nuclear materials in suitcases, or take over nuclear weapons, etc.  Like, REALLY HARD THINGS.  The impact was catastrophic, but how they did it was really easy.  in our minds though we think, "Man, what are they going to do next?  They destoryed those buildings!"  Well, they've tried other things; maybe blown up trains, or shot people in Paris, but they haven't destroyed buildings.  They had their one big trick.

    And basically, the mortgage crisis was that big trick, and it resonates because of the impact.  But expect smaller scale things to happen as we go forward.  Just not the MASSIVE scenario.

    Sorry for the poor anecdote, but it works.  

    Wordy, I'm sorry, but I think corrections will happen, but in no way shape of form do I think it's anything like we just saw.  History DOES repeat itself, and the history of 2009, if it repeats, would have to be generational because that was.  We've got time...

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