I am about to sell waterfront property for 35% ARV. need advice!

I am about to sell waterfront property for 35% ARV. need advice!

Newport News, VA · Member since 2016 · 42 posts · 19 votes

Hi BP, I will try to keep this long story super concise:

My Grandparents passed away last Dec. leaving their waterfront property in the fingerlakes to my mother. The property is a 3 bed 2 bath 2 story plus basement. the property has over 100' of water frontage on the Owasco Lake outlet in Auburn, NY (45 min West of Syracuse), and a private boat ramp. I estimated an ARV of $300,000-$325,000, but in its current condition $250k to $280k

The property is outdated, but completely habitable and clean. when listing the property the basement was still full of my grandparents belongings, so nobody realized the walls were bowing inward. After accepting a full priced cash offer of $265,000 and waived inspection contingency, we hired someone to remove the stuff from the basement exposing the sagging walls. The buyers, with good reason, were spooked, and tried to re trade at $100,000. we declined, and they attempted to breach contract. but the buyers agent never collected an EMD, so after months of back and forth with a lawyer involved we are now stuck with a nice $8,000 legal bill and still no EMD or compensation for locking the house up for over 5 months. holding costs in upstate NY will make your stomach churn.... why does anyone live there? $1,200 a month without a mortgage...

now to the foundation issues, we have gotten estimates ranging from $50,000 to $180,000. most people say we will need an entire new basement, but without removing drywall there is no way to tell the full extent of the damage, and scope of work necessary to repair it. 

moving on. My mother hires a second listing agent. the guy claims to be an investor and flipper, and seems a lot more knowledgeable than the last agent, but I think when an out of state woman inherits a free and clear home in an opportune location with incredibly high holding costs, everyone smells a little blood in the water... hell i would... He recommends that we go for a fast sale for $125,000 to a builder that will tear down and rebuild. A friend of my mothers offers her $125,000 after we list with the agent... of course. 

after doing some light market research and consulting with the agent, if we could repair the foundation, replace a bathroom, and do about 900 sq ft. of flooring, the market could support $250,000. back of the napkin math if this is worth the time to fix it: $250k x 70% - $11,000 for the bathroom and floor - $7,000 holding costs leaves us $32,000 to fix the foundation. 

I guess I'm just generally asking for advice on this one.. it really sucks to be on the distressed seller side of things. Is there anyone that is familiar with the finger lakes market? maybe someone that has dealt with sagging basements? any out of the box ideas to not let this beautiful property slip away at 35% of its ARV? should I surrender?

Seriously thanks for your time and any advice.

0Reply
44 views

Most Popular Reply

Joe SplitrockPro Member
Moderator
Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
7y

@Michael Snead you are getting stuck on ARV. Looking at your numbers, it sounds like the only way to get top dollar is to put $200K+ into the property. Or you can accept an offer for $125K now. Do the math and ARV is $325K, so after your $200K you would only net $125K. Well, not even because 6% of $325K for realtors fees is $20K versus, 6% of $125K is $7.5K. Not to mention any unexpected problems that come up during rehab.

When you put it in perspective, the $125K is a great offer. Time to let go and move on.

See this reply in the discussion

24 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Investor · Cazenovia, NY · Member since 2017 · 57 posts · 17 votes
    7y

    Michael,

    Sorry to hear about your troubles. I am not sure I follow your math in the second to last paragraph.  Here are the numbers I have:

    ARV = 250,000

    70% Target = 175,000

    Subtracting costs

    Bathroom & floor = 164,000

    Holding costs 157,000

    So you would have $157,000 to take care of the foundation.

    Or did I miss something?

  • Contractor · Oxford, MA · Member since 2018 · 807 posts · 745 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Mark Costa:

    Michael,

    Sorry to hear about your troubles. I am not sure I follow your math in the second to last paragraph.  Here are the numbers I have:

    ARV = 250,000

    70% Target = 175,000

    Subtracting costs

    Bathroom & floor = 164,000

    Holding costs 157,000

    So you would have $157,000 to take care of the foundation.

    Or did I miss something?

    He is counting the $125k selling price. To me, if you can get a loan to do the repairs, I definitely wouldn't leave $75k on the table because it is a hassle for a couple months. I would also open the walls up immediately and see what is wrong with it. Best case it doesn't take much to fix. Worst case, you lost a day of labor and the builder will still pay you $125k because they're tearing it down anyways

  • Contractor · Oxford, MA · Member since 2018 · 807 posts · 745 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Michael Snead:

    Hi BP, I will try to keep this long story super concise:

    My Grandparents passed away last Dec. leaving their waterfront property in the fingerlakes to my mother. The property is a 3 bed 2 bath 2 story plus basement. the property has over 100' of water frontage on the Owasco Lake outlet in Auburn, NY (45 min West of Syracuse), and a private boat ramp. I estimated an ARV of $300,000-$325,000, but in its current condition $250k to $280k

    The property is outdated, but completely habitable and clean. when listing the property the basement was still full of my grandparents belongings, so nobody realized the walls were bowing inward. After accepting a full priced cash offer of $265,000 and waived inspection contingency, we hired someone to remove the stuff from the basement exposing the sagging walls. The buyers, with good reason, were spooked, and tried to re trade at $100,000. we declined, and they attempted to breach contract. but the buyers agent never collected an EMD, so after months of back and forth with a lawyer involved we are now stuck with a nice $8,000 legal bill and still no EMD or compensation for locking the house up for over 5 months. holding costs in upstate NY will make your stomach churn.... why does anyone live there? $1,200 a month without a mortgage...

    now to the foundation issues, we have gotten estimates ranging from $50,000 to $180,000. most people say we will need an entire new basement, but without removing drywall there is no way to tell the full extent of the damage, and scope of work necessary to repair it. 

    moving on. My mother hires a second listing agent. the guy claims to be an investor and flipper, and seems a lot more knowledgeable than the last agent, but I think when an out of state woman inherits a free and clear home in an opportune location with incredibly high holding costs, everyone smells a little blood in the water... hell i would... He recommends that we go for a fast sale for $125,000 to a builder that will tear down and rebuild. A friend of my mothers offers her $125,000 after we list with the agent... of course. 

    after doing some light market research and consulting with the agent, if we could repair the foundation, replace a bathroom, and do about 900 sq ft. of flooring, the market could support $250,000. back of the napkin math if this is worth the time to fix it: $250k x 70% - $11,000 for the bathroom and floor - $7,000 holding costs leaves us $32,000 to fix the foundation. 

    I guess I'm just generally asking for advice on this one.. it really sucks to be on the distressed seller side of things. Is there anyone that is familiar with the finger lakes market? maybe someone that has dealt with sagging basements? any out of the box ideas to not let this beautiful property slip away at 35% of its ARV? should I surrender?

    Seriously thanks for your time and any advice.

    Why are you at 70% ARV to see it after it is fixed if you're listing with an agent? Sounds like the agent is trying to push you into selling to his "friend" that will probably give him the listing when it is sold again so he can make money on the $500k+ house they build

  • Real Estate Agent · Princeton, NJ · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y
    Michael Snead - 1. The first story with the agent doesn’t add up unless there’s no emd in the contract. If there is an emd in the offer, you get the photocopy of the check and it has to be deposited within 24-72 hours or that agent can lose his or her license. All else equal, it seems like the first agent was better because you got a much higher offer (more than double). 2. Do you have an alternative like short term or long term rental income you can get in lieu of selling? How much would someone pay on Airbnb or home away to rent a place like yours? How much can you get renting to 1 party? How much can you get renting rooms separately to 3-4 professionals? (Usually up to 50% more than 1 party). Can you add bookshelves or something to distract from the walls? As long as it’s not a life / health / safety thing, you can collect plenty of rental income from a house with defects. 3. The market slows down in the winter. You’ll probably get higher bids / more buyer competition in the spring.
  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    7y

    @Michael Snead you are getting stuck on ARV. Looking at your numbers, it sounds like the only way to get top dollar is to put $200K+ into the property. Or you can accept an offer for $125K now. Do the math and ARV is $325K, so after your $200K you would only net $125K. Well, not even because 6% of $325K for realtors fees is $20K versus, 6% of $125K is $7.5K. Not to mention any unexpected problems that come up during rehab.

    When you put it in perspective, the $125K is a great offer. Time to let go and move on.

  • Newport News, VA · Member since 2016 · 42 posts · 19 votes
    7y
    @Bryan Devitt I agree, at this point opening the walls can do no harm. Thank you I think I’ll do that right away
  • Newport News, VA · Member since 2016 · 42 posts · 19 votes
    7y
    @Natalie Schanne Yes the original buyers listing agent was a close friend of theirs and failed to collect an EMD. Not only that but they would not give us an EMD, would not let us exit the contract, and threatened to sue us for over 5 months. We reported the agent to the board, but that doesn’t really help us recoup the 5 months holding cost and the legal fees. The first agent got such a high offer, because at the time we weren’t aware of the foundation issues. After discovering foundation issues of course we disclosed this to buyers, hence lower offers. This isn’t the best rental market, but not terrible either. The thing is we would be lucky to break even, and we live a 12 hour drive away from the home. Thanks for your suggestions!
  • Newport News, VA · Member since 2016 · 42 posts · 19 votes
    7y
    @Joe Splitrock Thanks for the honesty! This may just be what I need to hear. But I was using an ARV of $250k (just doing a bathroom and flooring) to bring it to the typical market condition. The issue is the basement. I’m not keen on band aid fixing a basement, but there might be a cheaper option. If the walls could just be jacked, anchored, and reinforced, I can’t imagine that costing more than $30,000, making it worth it.
  • Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    7y

    OK since nobody has asked , What is the land worth ?   Now are building permits hard to get on new construction ?  Is there a well or water hook up ?     Get those numbers . 

    What type of houses are around it ?  

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y

    couple things now you learned that you never sue over EMD unless your talking 50 or 100k... just move on and find new buyer.. hiring a lawyer for this stuff is a waste of money and too much grief.

    if you dont really need the space in the basement why dont you just fill it in with Sand and compact it while you go up..

    end of problem and not expensive..

  • Coppell, TX · Member since 2015 · 485 posts · 310 votes
    7y

    in all this, I think it couldn't hurt to get a couple more foundation/engineering evals on the basement.   you might be surprise that a better/smarter company comes along and can fix it a better/cheaper way.

  • Lender · Boston, MA · Member since 2018 · 22 posts · 17 votes
    7y
    @Joe Splitrock I agree with this assessment. Take the 125 and run. If you want to make additional money on the deal, sue the realtor on the initial transaction for damages related to you holding the property and you having to carry it because the didn’t take the deposit. It was a non contingent deal. They should have had the money in escrow. You could have at least recovered your costs.
  • Aaron MoorePro Member
    Investor / Real Estate Agent · Colorado Springs, CO · Member since 2015 · 82 posts · 31 votes
    7y
    @Michael Snead I'm assuming repair costs in NY are a good bit higher than where I am, but I worked for a structural repair company for 6 years (how I got into investing), and those estimates for bowing foundation walls seem astronomical considering the solutions that are out there. Look up wall anchoring systems (Foundation Supportworks has good products, and should have a dealer in your area). Unless the wall is literally on the verge of collapse, you should be able to stabilize it with an engineered solution and a lifetime transferrable warranty against further movement. That goes a long way to buyer peace of mind.
  • Contractor · Grand Marais, MN · Member since 2016 · 249 posts · 417 votes
    7y
    @Joe Splitrock totally agree
  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    7y

    Moderator Note: Do not offer to purchase this property in the forums. Posts will be removed.

  • Rental Property Investor · North Vernon, IN · Member since 2018 · 136 posts · 192 votes
    7y

    The best thing to do here is to fix the walls, and give the rest of the house a facelift and sell for ~$300k but it might cost you $50k upfront to do this.  Use a home equity loan to fund the repairs.  Good Luck!

  • Newport News, VA · Member since 2016 · 42 posts · 19 votes
    7y
    @Andrew Flora This is the plan. I’m not going to roll over and sell the house for $0.30 on the dollar until I know for sure that these foundation walls are beyond repair. The agent told my mother today that he has a contractor coming by to give an estimate to demolish the home (we did not ask for this) I am almost positive he is trying to slide this to a builder friend so he can get the back end listing as someone else said above.
  • Newport News, VA · Member since 2016 · 42 posts · 19 votes
    7y
    @Aaron Moore Yeah I was looking into the anchors or steal I beams. The I beams have a bad rep due to most people installing them incorrectly. Worse comes to worse I will consult and engineer and load a truck up with a couple of my guys and go jack the I beams myself one weekend. I do way more challenging stuff working for a commercial contractor on a daily basis. I don’t think that will be necessary though. I’m sure I can find a contractor to work with me. ...Now to just drive 12 hours into a snow storm and get a contractor to come out on a weekend haha. Wish me luck.
  • Newport News, VA · Member since 2016 · 42 posts · 19 votes
    7y
    Steel* geez I’m welder and I can’t spell steel
  • Aaron MoorePro Member
    Investor / Real Estate Agent · Colorado Springs, CO · Member since 2015 · 82 posts · 31 votes
    7y
    @Michael Snead Good luck!
Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.