RANT: Stop Using Bad Math to Analyze Real Estate - Plus A Hot Tip

RANT: Stop Using Bad Math to Analyze Real Estate - Plus A Hot Tip

Real Estate Agent · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2016 · 738 posts · 1k+ votes

I'm writing this post to shed some light on a problem I keep encountering with aspiring investors who are new to real estate.

They read a book or two, hop on BiggerPockets and learn about a few ways to analyze a potential deal, and somewhere along the way they form a "Golden Number" that all future deals must have to be worth considering. 

The 1% Rule is the biggest violator on here, but it could be any other metric that the investor has created an unrealistic standard for that they try to apply to every deal. No matter the property type, geographic location, or local averages for the metric.

The classic example of this is a new investor who calls me up and wants to find a great rental in a B class area with above market rents, low crime, great schools, etc. and expects to pay $100k less than those properties are going for on the market. Not going to happen.

In this article I'll take a look at a few other common examples and show how when they're dogmatically used to analyze real estate to the exclusion of all other factors, you're doing yourself a major disservice and are passing up on tons of potential deals.

CASH ON CASH RETURN

BiggerPockets already has an excellent article written on Cash on Cash Return that I will borrow from below:

"Calculating cash-on-cash return is simple. We simply divide the received net cash flow for the year by the amount of cash invested. It will produce a percentage rate that measures the received pre-tax cash flow relative to the amount of money invested to acquire the asset.

The cash-on-cash return is a great metric and is widely used throughout the real estate industry both investors and real estate agents. The primary reason for this is due to the metric’s simplicity in calculating the percentage return.

The cash-on-cash return specifically drills down in the return on the capital invested. It does so by only considering returns that are driven by the property’s net cash flow.

Because the cash-on-cash return is only looking at the net cash flow and comparing it to the actual amount of cash invested, it’s a great indicator for the effect of leverage. Using leverage will decrease your cash-on-cash return, which makes the metric a good way to measure different levels of financing."

But the big problem with cash-on-cash return is that it doesn't account for taxes, loan paydown, or appreciation, which are all a huge part of your actual returns on investment.

When you take those things into consideration, you can get a way different evaluation of the same property or market using different metrics.

For a real world example of this, consider this article here about the Best Cities to be a Mom-and-Pop Landlord:

"Oklahoma City is the best city to be a small-time landlord in the short term, which is when comparing rental income versus assumed monthly mortgage payment, according to a new research released Friday by real estate website Zillow. In that city, short-term profit amounts to $536 a month.

However, the greatest returns are actually in markets like San Jose and San Francisco where there are short-term monthly losses, but the long-term earned equity makes them the best markets to invest in.

Including home equity gains, tax benefits, property and income taxes, and maintenance, in addition to the difference between monthly rental income and mortgage payments after holding the property for six years, San Jose, Calif., with $8,927 in long-term profit, is the best city to be a small-time landlord."

So while the Bay Area might of had negative cash on cash return, it made FAR greater profits over time than the high CoC markets did. And buy-and-hold real estate is a long term game, which is why CoC isn't the best metric to use as a single filter.

I see this happening a lot on the west coast in markets like California and Arizona, and investors expecting to get 12% cash-on-cash returns like we're in some high cash flow market like Cincinnati or Oklahoma (it might even be rare there, not my market). 

If you know of a way to get this kind of first year return in the current market where you're at, please do share.

More on this "geographic metric swapping" below...

IMPOSSIBLE METRICS LIKE THE 1% RULE

The big problem with a 12% cash-on-cash return or the 1% Rule where the gross monthly rents should be 1% of the purchase price is that in some markets they are next to impossible to find and therefore completely useless.

Let's use both of them to analyze the purchase of a $250,000 property in Anytown, USA. We won't even account for other expenses to keep it simple, and will just use the PITI as the base expense.

Purchase Price: $250,000
25% Down: $62,500
PITI @ 5% INT: $1,340/mo
Rent for 12% CoC: $2,000/mo
Rent for 1% Rule: $2,500/mo

Now, take a look at what your tenant could buy that property for themselves:

Purchase Price: $250,000
5% Down: $12,500
PITI @ 4.5% INT: $1,710/mo
Difference from 12% CoC: -$290/mo
Difference from 1% Rule: -$790/mo

So why on earth would your tenant agree to pay you $300-800 more per month for rent when they could purchase the property with only 5% down and pay way less? Unless you've mastered the Mind Control Powers of Dracula this is simply never going to happen.

The simple fact is these metrics are completely broken beyond a specific price point, to the point of being almost useless.

The only way you're going to get close to the 1% Rule on residential properties in west coast markets like Sacramento or Phoenix is with a fourplex. And it'll be rare at that. And probably in a neighborhood you don't want to invest in, or in a condition that's going to require tons of additional capital in maintenance and repairs.

What good is a 1% Rule property if it's full of bullet holes and you can't collect the rents? 

Obviously there's more to the picture than just a single ROI metric. Here's how you can use them to analyze a property.

COMPARE AGAINST THE AVERAGES FOR YOUR MARKET

If you're going to use ANY metric, you should compare each potential property's scores for the metric against the average for that geographic market. And I would even consider narrowing it down further to neighborhood, price point, and property type.

For example, I recently did an analysis of all 2-4 unit properties in Sacramento priced between $400k and $600k. The average 1% Rule score was 0.58%. Not too glamorous when you compare it to that "gold standard" of 1%.

But there were three properties that scored above 0.75%, WAY above the average. So these properties could be considered "great deals" even though they are still below the 1% mark because they perform so much better than average for the area.

The problem occurs when new investors  bring cashflow figures from Oklahoma and expect to find them in San Jose, or take appreciation figures from California and try to apply them to any flyover state. You're going to be looking for a deal for a LOOOONG time if you do.

All in all, real estate is complex investment that should be analyzed using many different metrics in tandem to analyze the potential long term returns on a given property. 

If you abandon all other metrics for some "golden number" or something, no matter what that golden number is to you, you're doing yourself quite the disservice and will pass up on many great deals because of it.

OTHER THINGS TO CONSIDER WHEN ANALYZING DEALS

Think of all the other things that must be considered when analyzing a potential deal:

  • Crime Rates
  • School Ratings
  • Population Growth
  • Job Growth
  • Rent Growth
  • Historical Home Value Appreciation
  • Nearby Commercial Development
  • Gentrification / "Up-and-Coming" Neighborhoods
  • Long-Term Projections
  • And so much more

For example, more than 2 years ago I made a massive post about the coming "Millennial Migration" from the Bay Area to Sacramento, and have seen how much that migration pattern has changed the local real estate market there.

I bought a owner-occupied short sale in October 2016 for $260k with only 5% down. Nearly three years later it's worth $350k and generating over $500/mo in positive cash flow.

If I had been stuck on getting a certain metric like the 1% Rule or 12% cash-on-cash return, I would've totally missed this opportunity. Don't let that happen to you. Look at the bigger picture and think long-term.

Want another migration pattern years ahead of time? Here you go. Thank me later.

MIGRATION PATTERNS AND TRENDS

According to a new survey by Edelman Intelligence, 53% of Californians are considering moving out of state due to the high cost of living. Millennials are even more likely to flee the Golden State — 63% of them said they want to.

And it's not just people who are leaving -- businesses are too.

In fact, some other states are actively targeting California companies. Arizona launched one such effort in 2013, after Californians approved a tax hike. Texas, too, has tried to seduce companies away from California.

The difference in cost of living and taxes and close proximity make Arizona a nice alternative for these migrating Californians, particularly if they're from Southern California. SoCal has more than 5x as many people as the Phoenix Metro Area, so it's simply an issue of supply and demand... and traffic hahahah.

How many SoCal millennials do you think are willing to finally give up the beach for affordable housing? The median home price in Phoenix is HALF what it is in Los Angeles and hundreds of thousands cheaper.

P.S. If you're a millennial in SoCal reading this, realize that Puerto Peñasco AKA Rocky Point in Mexico is less than four hours away from Phoenix if you really must see the ocean on a regular basis.

How many of the 10,000+ Baby Boomers turning 65 every day and retiring are sick and tired of snow and cold weather in northern states and are deciding to come to Arizona and wear shorts on Christmas in warmer weather? 

Enough to make AZ the #2 retirement destination in the US, second only to Florida.

Perhaps these two migration factors are why the Phoenix Metro Area is set to DOUBLE in population by the year 2050. Tucson will play a huge part of it two as the cities grow closer and closer together, filled up with millennials moving from expensive California and Baby Boomers moving from colder northern states.

Don't believe me? Then why is Phoenix already the #1 market in the country for population growth? 

Those businesses are coming to... Phoenix was #2 for job growth in 2018 and Arizona expects to add 165,000 jobs by 2020.

To some, this may sound like a sales pitch for a market that I just so happen to be a licensed real estate agent in. 

To them, I would say "Why do you think I moved here in the first place? The heat?" LOL :-P

But those aren't the only migration patterns affecting real estate values. Consider the following:

2018 Top Inbound States for Population Growth

  1. Idaho
  2. Arizona
  3. South Carolina
  4. Tennessee
  5. North Carolina

2018 Top Outbound States for Population Decline

  1. Illinois
  2. California
  3. New Jersey
  4. Pennsylvania
  5. Maryland

Are there migration patterns and other trends affecting your local real estate market? Is tech bringing new jobs to your city? Are high taxes and cost of living pushing people out? Are there "Secondary Markets" nearby that could receive a massive surge in demand? 

Because that's exactly what's happening with Sacramento and the Bay Area, and Los Angeles and Phoenix. And it could be happening in your market too.

TOO LONG, DIDN'T READ

In summary, my advice to you is to consider ALL aspects of a potential investment, regardless of how complicated that puzzle might be to put together. You can't just rely on one single piece (like a single metric or standard you adhere to). 

I know, I know... you don't have time to do all that research or even read all of this post. Which is why there are licensed professionals like me to do a lot of that work for you. I still advise you do your own due diligence, but networking and the sharing of knowledge is what Bigger Pockets is all about.

If you're dead set on achieving some certain ROI figure, ask in the forums where you can find markets that offer it. If you're looking for it in a certain area, ask in the forums if your expectations are realistic and what kinds of returns others are finding instead.

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Rental Property Investor · Yuma, AZ · Member since 2019 · 637 posts · 46 votes
7y

@Wes Blackwell too long

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Lender · Mesa, AZ · Member since 2019 · 62 posts · 49 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Dennis M.:

    That’s all fine and nice but I don’t care what’s hot and happening in San Francisco or Dallas or Egypt .. I’ll still buy my old 10-15k houses and get my 40% returns . Yes the population declines yes good jobs leave yes some lady down the road got mugged but those metrics are things I don’t even consider for the most part to be honest . When I run an ad and get several dozens and of applicants trying to get my place daily all those metrics go out the window to me because no matter what there is always a huge amount of the population that need to rent and it’s increasing .appreciation is great but I’d rather have the tenant pay my house off in two-three years and get big cashflow . I want 3% rule atleast .

    Hey Dennis, I was thinking nearly the exact same thing when I read the article above. Why am I buying property in the first place? The answer is cash-flow. Monthly cash-flow. I feel like this is Rich Dad 101. The reason I'm investing in the first place is to be able to move away from the Employee quadrant and more into the Investor quadrant (so that I can work far less at the J-O-B, if at all, and have the freedom to spend more time with family/friends, travel, and generally do the things in life I really want to do). 

    If a property doesn't cash-flow then there really is no reason for me to consider it. As Robert Kiyosaki says, you make your money on the front-end, not the back-end. Property appreciation is nice, but it really is just icing on the cake (since I don't want to sell properties, I want them to bring me revenue...every-single-month). So appreciation isn't the main source for me, and shouldn't be, since that takes years and I could just as easily call Cardone Capital (or someone else) and be far less hands on, or call Vanguard investments, and just set-it and forget-it. Yet in both of those scenarios I'm still in the E quadrant. Instead, I want my money to be my employee. Instead of me working the J-O-B all the time, it goes out and works to bring home more of itself each month. 

  • Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2015 · 89 posts · 89 votes
    7y

    What a great thread. I have found that learning to use spreadsheets (you don't even need Excel, Sheets works fine for this) and learning the basics of how to calculate your returns is critical. @Account Closed I totally agree on how unprofessional many real estate agents are. I think it would be nice if those helping investors knew how to do basic math and use spreadsheets.

    It's been interesting to see different people's goals here. We are really simple and just need a small amount of income to support the way we like to live, and we are now avoiding what we define for ourselves as overleveraging at this point in our lives. But those just starting out have different goals, and those who are into building massive wealth have different goals as well. It's all really interesting. 

    The BP calculator is helpful, but if you can figure out exactly what it's doing behind the scenes, that's really useful as well. As practice, I created a simple cash flow analysis and I wrote a simple mortgage calculator on Google Sheets, and found that skill useful when I bought my Mexico property. I was able to build a spreadsheet to calculate payments etc and convince the owner to carry the loan for us. Once she saw it laid out and I explained it to her, she realized it was a nice deal for her too! I am not a math whiz by any means, but I think in this game, you must know how to do simple analysis and don't trust anyone's numbers unless you run them yourself. 

    Learning to use spreadsheets has been the most useful skill I have found in helping me to reach my personal goals with real estate!

  • Real Estate Agent · Memphis, TN · Member since 2019 · 261 posts · 253 votes
    7y

    Thank you; investors think I'm being negative or not working for them when I have to shed this kind of light on the current market or they think that we're just not 'finding any good deals.'

    Properties that match their numbers may just hit the market or off-market occasionally, but the chances of a new invested being ready to buy something that does before it disappears is small and if they do happen to be ready, when the bidding war starts, they're out long before it's over because they think it's overpaying. It can be, absolutely, but the final deal almost always goes to an experienced investor that sees the value and the noobs are left holding their money looking again because they wouldn't flex their ideal numbers any.

  • Rental Property Investor · Beavercreek OH · Member since 2018 · 422 posts · 970 votes
    7y

    Loved your post.  It was thoughtful and insightful.

    That being said I tend to disagree on IRR. While it is important to be aware of, it is meaningless to an investor such as myself as I plan to never sell or refinance any of my properties. They are in several LLC's in a trust for my wife and kids benefit after I die.

    My real life experiences tell me my A class properties appreciate at a higher rate then my B- properties.  They also have pickier tenants, more rapid turnover (these people are able to buy their own homes), and rarely meet the one percent rule.  They also don't support the rent increases my other B- properties due because they are already at top of the market rents.

    On the other hand, my B- properties cash flow better (almost always above the one percent rule), rent faster, support more frequent rent increases, have less turnover and way less picky tenants.

    I wanted some diversity in location so I have about 4 B- properties to every 1 A property. Good for some added IRR i guess. Not that great for the rest of the metrics.

  • Rental Property Investor · Sitka, AK · Member since 2018 · 1 post · 1 vote
    7y

    @Wes Blackwell

    Spot on! Every new investor should read this entire post!

  • Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles CA · Member since 2016 · 128 posts · 55 votes
    7y

    @Wes Blackwell

    I read the whole thing... Thank for taking the time to write it all.

    I live in Texas and own 2 property. I would like to get 1 more than this year. I was thinking about Oklahoma just because I have family there. This post is eye opening for me.

    Do you have an article or book that takes what your talking about and goes into more depth⁉️

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y

    @Aaron Lietz  keep in mind when you scale rentals especially low value rentals with highly transient tenants your just trading jobs.. to really make money on those low end rentals you have to roll your Sleeves up and work it.

    might not be full time but your not going to just buy them and they magically churn out money. 

    The bigger issue and this is why its my personal opinion ( and I know the minority thought on BP0 ) is that buying property with no expectation of appreciation or forethought to buy were the market is growing in value is a dangerous thought process and more dangerous to do.  At least for most folks.

    Reason is all these investors that have no experience at landlording  many come to hate it .. they go into it thinking they are  never going to sell and well that just does not happen and 3 to 5 years down the line they just want out.. and at that point in a non appreciated market were the locals are going to only buy screaming deals.. Most folks will give back their cash flow and get hit with depreciation recapture, and since the properties never went up there usually is not enough equity to bother with a 1031 exchange.. 

    So this is kind of the other side of the coin and my personal experience as a HML in the cash flow markets. I see the HUDS of what my vendors ( the local wholesaler flipper pays for these homes) in many instances its a very big wipe out for the current owner..

    So I like @Jim K. play if he is going to do it which he is.. he is buying the low end assets but paying them off.. that will work also.. but I suspect he will tell you its work and its a lot of work to actually maximize returns .. it can be done.. but the thought your doing this to spend time with family and have extra money and not have to work.. I suspect some is true but not all of it.. 

  • Rental Property Investor · D.C · Member since 2019 · 501 posts · 102 votes
    7y

    @Jim K.

    Port-A-Potty ***

  • Rental Property Investor · NH (new hampshire) · Member since 2017 · 53 posts · 22 votes
    7y

    @Wes Blackwell

    Love it. I've been looking for the right property for a year. And i think they all need to be analyzed individually. Skip the rules. Get into the weeds on each. If it looks okay, dig deeper.

    Great rant Wes.

  • Rental Property Investor · Martinsburg, WV · Member since 2017 · 111 posts · 81 votes
    7y

    @Wes Blackwell I think you're undervaluing "lower-classed" properties because you're assuming that they are all the same hassle/risk across the board, nationally.

    That hasn't been my experience. I'm sure your system works. Mine seems to also, based on the "unrealistic"rules that you mentioned, and with the understanding that I do my best to treat tenants well and have few issues in return.

    I think there is probably an inherent difference in expectations of profit gained where, based on investment experiences and geography.

  • Investor From Portland, OR · Member since 2017 · 87 posts · 26 votes
    7y

    @Wes Blackwell, This post is solid gold. Thank you.

  • Sacramento, CA · Member since 2019 · 21 posts · 2 votes
    7y

    @Mike Dymski I'm a new investor and very eager to learn the proper way to conduct business in any venture I take on. What exactly is the IRR?

  • Member since 2019 · 7 posts · 2 votes
    7y

    @Wes Blackwell

    I’m a contractor and new investor and I’ve had several clients, over the years, that were very wealthy. The richest were all REIs. Some had hundreds of SFRs, some bought and renovated old hotels, some had warehouse space and storage facilities.

    So now After reading All of the post and replies....seems to me that if you just stick to one strategy, you miss a lot of deals.

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Kenneth Donald:

    @Mike Dymski I'm a new investor and very eager to learn the proper way to conduct business in any venture I take on. What exactly is the IRR?

    Hey Kenneth. IRR is Internal Rate of Return. It estimates the profitability of an investment. It accounts for all of the cash flows of the investment over it's lifetime. Below is an example with the following assumptions:

    • $25,000 down payment
    • $300/month cash flow (rents less all expenses, cap ex reserves, and mortgage payments)
    • $35,000 net proceeds on sale (after sales commissions, closing costs, and mortgage payoff)

    IRR = 20%. The "IRR" function in Excel calculates the return for you if you insert the estimated cash flows by period.

    Down payment $ (25,000)
    Year 1 cash flow $ 3,600
    Year 2 cash flow $ 3,600
    Year 3 cash flow $ 3,600
    Year 4 cash flow $ 3,600
    Year 5 cash flow $ 38,600
    IRR 20%
  • Lender · Mesa, AZ · Member since 2019 · 62 posts · 49 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Aaron Lietz  keep in mind when you scale rentals especially low value rentals with highly transient tenants your just trading jobs.. to really make money on those low end rentals you have to roll your Sleeves up and work it.

    might not be full time but your not going to just buy them and they magically churn out money. 

    The bigger issue and this is why its my personal opinion ( and I know the minority thought on BP0 ) is that buying property with no expectation of appreciation or forethought to buy were the market is growing in value is a dangerous thought process and more dangerous to do.  At least for most folks.

    Reason is all these investors that have no experience at landlording  many come to hate it .. they go into it thinking they are  never going to sell and well that just does not happen and 3 to 5 years down the line they just want out.. and at that point in a non appreciated market were the locals are going to only buy screaming deals.. Most folks will give back their cash flow and get hit with depreciation recapture, and since the properties never went up there usually is not enough equity to bother with a 1031 exchange.. 

    So this is kind of the other side of the coin and my personal experience as a HML in the cash flow markets. I see the HUDS of what my vendors ( the local wholesaler flipper pays for these homes) in many instances its a very big wipe out for the current owner..

    So I like @Jim K. play if he is going to do it which he is.. he is buying the low end assets but paying them off.. that will work also.. but I suspect he will tell you its work and its a lot of work to actually maximize returns .. it can be done.. but the thought your doing this to spend time with family and have extra money and not have to work.. I suspect some is true but not all of it.. 

     Hi Jay, I see myself having property management deal with those things you had mentioned. In fact, I have read and also know of people who are doing what I'd like to be doing right now, and are successful with it (i.e. - having passive income and working the J-O-B a lot less, if any). For me, real estate is a vehicle away from the rat race, and I think most people (including Brandon Turner and many, many other successful real estate investors, feel that way as well). The goal is financial freedom through passive income. Of course, some investors have done this through single family, some through multi, some through commercial, and some through multiple avenues. But ultimately, cash-flow is where it's at for most of us (I think). 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Aaron Lietz:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs@Jay Hinrichs:

    @Aaron Lietz  keep in mind when you scale rentals especially low value rentals with highly transient tenants your just trading jobs.. to really make money on those low end rentals you have to roll your Sleeves up and work it.

    might not be full time but your not going to just buy them and they magically churn out money. 

    The bigger issue and this is why its my personal opinion ( and I know the minority thought on BP0 ) is that buying property with no expectation of appreciation or forethought to buy were the market is growing in value is a dangerous thought process and more dangerous to do.  At least for most folks.

    Reason is all these investors that have no experience at landlording  many come to hate it .. they go into it thinking they are  never going to sell and well that just does not happen and 3 to 5 years down the line they just want out.. and at that point in a non appreciated market were the locals are going to only buy screaming deals.. Most folks will give back their cash flow and get hit with depreciation recapture, and since the properties never went up there usually is not enough equity to bother with a 1031 exchange.. 

    So this is kind of the other side of the coin and my personal experience as a HML in the cash flow markets. I see the HUDS of what my vendors ( the local wholesaler flipper pays for these homes) in many instances its a very big wipe out for the current owner..

    So I like @Jim K. play if he is going to do it which he is.. he is buying the low end assets but paying them off.. that will work also.. but I suspect he will tell you its work and its a lot of work to actually maximize returns .. it can be done.. but the thought your doing this to spend time with family and have extra money and not have to work.. I suspect some is true but not all of it.. 

     Hi Jay, I see myself having property management deal with those things you had mentioned. In fact, I have read and also know of people who are doing what I'd like to be doing right now, and are successful with it (i.e. - having passive income and working the J-O-B a lot less, if any). For me, real estate is a vehicle away from the rat race, and I think most people (including Brandon Turner and many, many other successful real estate investors, feel that way as well). The goal is financial freedom through passive income. Of course, some investors have done this through single family, some through multi, some through commercial, and some through multiple avenues. But ultimately, cash-flow is where it's at for most of us (I think). 

    As long as you take the word PASSIVE out of the narrative I agree to an extent. and it really depends on where you buy.. not all rentals run the same way,, I owned 350 C class some probably B class and it was the finest hour of my career to sign that sale agreement divesting myself of all that cash flow  LOL.. now I fully admit that all I do Is real estate so for me personally there are just more profitable and less stress ways to make money in the industry.. Although I enjoyed the 4 MHP s I have owned and the storage units I had were nice.. but when I get an offer that lets me take a big profit I sell.  now for me to keep in mind I have worked and lived through 3 to 4 recessions and the mother of all of them in 07 to 2011...  where you invest matters. 

  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    7y
  • Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    7y

    @Aaron David Lietz the thing is if you have property management deal with all those things, you have to pay them, and then you have zero or more likely negative cash flow. The 6-12% base a PM gets just covers basic rent collection, maybe an annual inspection and fielding emergency calls. It doesn't usually come close to covering all the extra BS that comes along with owning high cap rate/ high cash-flow properties. For example an eviction will cost extra, maintenance will cost extra, a turnover will cost (a lot) extra, lease renewals cost extra, filling a unit will cost extra, having them coordinate capex/repair projects costs extra, having them go clean up the property will cost extra, lawncare/snow removal... the list of things that will cost you extra is long. In my experience anyone touting "passive" income from REI is probably making more money selling books and seminars, earning commissions as an agent, or running an REI website than they do off owning property. It's never passive in my experience (syndications and REITS excepted once you've done your DD on them). At the very least you have to manage your manager and make decisions on issues when they come up, then open your checkbook to have others deal with them for you. If you expect to have a PM do every little thing, you have to pay them for their time, the base 6-12% will only pay them for a few hours a month and beyond that you've got to pay them more or else find a new PM because they will go out of business if they are running around doing every little thing for you and aren't charging enough for their time. If you want to be totally passive, you'll spend all day writing checks to your PM lol. Going in thinking it will be passive is a recipe for losing money, and like Jay says, is probably the main reason why so many investors flame out after a year or two or three and sell at a loss or if they're lucky and have some appreciation, maybe make a little money or break even. I cringe whenever I hear the word passive now.

  • Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 16 posts · 4 votes
    7y

    Not all brokers are equal.  Many still live under the old program of simply buying and selling property to earn a commission.  Unfortunately it gives good brokers a bad name.  I suggest utilizing a CCIM, since we are trained in financial, market and investment analysis.  Even so, not all CCIM's are created equal.

    If a broker simply regurgitates the information already in the OM, I would look for another broker.  

  • Developer · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    I agree. CoC is only one number. And I am glad no one told me about the 1% rule when I started. I would have overpaid for my properties!

    To me, it's very simple: will the deal make me money?

    I don't care where the money will come from.

    Is it from cashflow? Great!

    Is it from appreciation? Great!

    So, I look at IRR as it includes ALL the profit streams.

    Now, having said that...I don't "predict" or speculate what the appreciation will be. I buy properties below market AND I do value-adds. So, the equity gain is more or less assured. No speculation or as little of it as possible.

    Lastly, I know where to buy because I am intimately familiar with what's going on in the markets where I buy. I know the developments that are about to happen and I know the politicians and big developers and what they are going to do.

    OK - enough. I am sharing too much of my secrets again here.

  • Rental Property Investor · Monterey County, CA · Member since 2019 · 8 posts · 0 votes
    7y

    This is all great information. I agree that the COC is just one method if evaluating a good deal but should not be the rule of thumb. This is expressly true along the west coast as you will not see COC but more or less appreciation.

    Thank you all for valuable feedback I'm so happy to have such an awesome platform to refer to!

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 439 posts · 578 votes
    7y

    Great read. Thank you!

    I’ve said it before on here and I’ll say it again.... too many people are lacking the ability to see what their investment will produce in the future. Which is fine by me.... more deals for those of us that speculate and look at the potential returns.

    “The day you plant the seed is not the day you eat the fruit” runs through my head when analyzing potential purchases.

  • San Diego, CA · Member since 2018 · 3 posts · 2 votes
    7y

    @Wes Blackwell rules are meant to be broken. Could not agree more w all you mentioned. For me it’s as simple as this, $1 or more of cash flow is an asset on balance sheet. $1 loss or more is a liability. Time will take care of everything with some patience. Why not just get others to pay our mortgage.

  • Rental Property Investor · Toronto, Canada · Member since 2012 · 102 posts · 95 votes
    7y

    @Wes Blackwell awesome post. Loved it!

  • Member since 2018 · 9 posts · 7 votes
    7y

    @Wes Blackwell

    That was a well thought out article. As a newbie investor in Phoenix, I appreciate the area specific advice. I've always heard the 1% rule and couldn't find anywhere close by that could match that. .7 to .85 is about the best I've found on the open market.

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