Long Post -Lessons I've Learned Owning Calss D Duplexes

Long Post -Lessons I've Learned Owning Calss D Duplexes

Investor · Member since 2013 · 56 posts · 52 votes



I will share my experience with you owning 5 class D duplexes in the Midwest!  This is my experience and this experience has taught me a lot.  I hope you find this post helpful. 

If you live on the West coast like me where small 900 sqft homes go for $500K, a duplex for $20K in the Midwest that generates $1100-1300 a month in rent sounds very lucrative!

I paid $100K for 5 duplexes (package deal) thinking I would have higher returns than my class B SFH rentals.

I bought these sight unseen!!! Huge mistake.   I flew to Milwaukee, met with a broker who was recommended by a BP member.  His company was a do it all, broker and PM.  We looked at many properties and wasn't ready to pull the trigger then.

For the next few months, he sent me properties, we made offers and wan't able to secure any deals.  Then he called me one day saying he's got a great deal that he thinks I should move on fast! 5 duplexes for $100K, 2 of them fully occupied and 3 needed repairs and If I put about $20K into the repairs, it would be the deal of the century! 

I trusted him and didn't fly out to look at the buildings.  Closed on them and sent $11K to start the repairs.  I was told the repairs were complete and units were listed for rent which I verified online! they were listed and the third building was now fully occupied.  The last two building sat on the market for months.

The most stupid thing ever was not buying insurance on these properties!!!! The premium was $4K a year and I thought after they start cash flowing, I'll buy insurance!

Then one day my phone rings at 5 am! It's the Milwaukee fire department! There was fire in one of the buildings! Then the police department calls, then the tenant calls stating that she had been requesting repairs of an electric socket in the living-room and the PM never came out to repair.  The tenant have been taken to a shelter and the PM was nowhere to be found! I called the PM and told them I'd be flying out the next day to meet with the broker!  I got on the plane and showed up in their office the next day! The broker didn't show up to the meeting! One of their repair crew agreed to take me to my properties!

The vacant buildings were full of trash!!! mice running around! No repairs done!!!!!  The crew member didn't speak English but kept shaking his head! The building with the fire incident was condemned by the city! We returned to their office and I raised hell and wouldn't leave without getting all my $11K back, which I did!

I tried suing the PM for mis-management, but after a PI looked into their entity, I was told I would lose more money in the legal battle since all his assets were owned by family members.  He also had a long history of cocaine trafficking and all sorts of scams he'd served time for ... 

Demoing the building, fire department fees, city fees cost me $15K and yes I insured the rest of the buildings.

I went through 6 PMs in 4 yrs

PM # 2, another scammer! I paid for new water heaters and then the plumber calls me directly saying these are used heater!  This was month 2!  I got scammed out of $4K and I fired them!  I knew a local investor who had 300+ units was using them, so I called him and told him about the scam and to watch out! 

PM # 3, honest, but not good!  kept dropping the ball on things constantly and finally decided he didn't want to be a PM and referred me to another PM.

PM#4, The local investor I mentioned in PM#2 texts me one morning, The PM is gone and didn't deposit $100K worth of rents collected the previous month! Police is involved now!

We got on the phone and chatted, he decided to do his own PM and take on my properties too.  He did turn things around and the properties started cash flowing monthly, but I was so deep in the red zone at this point that even the cash flowing, I never recouped!  

He decided to sell his properties since I believe he didn't recoup either after the PM scam!

PM # 5 honest, but difficult to work with.  Always behind on statements and deposits also high fees.

Now on the tenant side!

These class D buildings are usually occupied by the worst tenants! Don't get me wrong, you may get lucky and get good tenants, but just the location and quality of the buildings attract the worst of the worst! 

Most of them have eviction history and if you wait for a tenant with good history, your units will be vacant for a long time! 

This happened more than once

- tenant pays deposit and first month's rent, move in.  Then call the city on you!  The inspector does a walk in and sends you a four page violation of things in the basement, attic, chimney, etc that are out of code.  remind you that these buildings were built in the 1920's some of these items have been out of code for decades! The tenant stops paying rent.  It takes 2 months for the PM to pull permits, fix things.  You can't evict while you have violations open.  Then you serve them a 30 day notice after the violation has been closed. Then they jam stuff in the furnace and claim they don't have heat.  the HVAC guy finds foreign object in the furnace and knows the tenant is doing it.  They show up to court claiming they forgot their documents, set another court date.  they no show.  by the time PM shows up with the sheriff to evict, they are gone, but have kicked holes in the walls, kitchen cabinets broken, doors missing, etc ... 

The cycle repeats itself.  tenant floods the unit upon moving out when evicted!  

Dog poop everywhere, pest problems, water damage, missing window screens, missing toilets, cracked bath tubs, the list goes on and on ....

when you are at your lowest and want to sell, local investors will offer you $5-10K but now you are $30K in the red.  

I finally sold the units.  I made up lost money!  technically I didn't loose $$$.  as if I put my $100K in a safe!

But if I would have bought just one grade B SFH for $100K, I would have made $$$$, appreciation, etc

I paid $100K, I walked away with $125K  (I was $25K in the red) and a world of knowledge about what not to do!!!!

Sorry about the long post!  If you are out of state investor, think twice about buying class D buildings! 

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Real Estate Consultant · Brookfield, WI · Member since 2014 · 873 posts · 350 votes
6y

I can say I was PM #3. I tried my best and at that moment in time I found out that wasn't t built to be a property manager even though I'm knowledgeable about management. Sorry @Azita S. I don't do a better job. 

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  • Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y

    @Azita S. Thank you for sharing your experience!  I invest in C Class Milwaukee and have had 4 PM's with one not doing their job and 2 being shady / negligent.  I am glad you came out ahead, though probably wasn't worth the time and drama

  • Investor · Member since 2013 · 56 posts · 52 votes
    6y

    @Brie Schmidt

    At least you are only a few hours away!

  • Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    6y

    @Azita Shahgaldi D class properties almost never work out as they would on paper. Long distance investing is also not going to go as intended in most cases. Those repair costs will eat your cash flow for breakfast

  • Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Azita S.:

    @Brie Schmidt

    At least you are only a few hours away!

     Agreed!  It is still hard though, I had a fire about 6 months after owning it and had to demo it too

  • Investor · Member since 2013 · 56 posts · 52 votes
    6y

    @Caleb Heimsoth

    Class B SFH out of state has been working great for me. They are in AZ and newer homes, built in the early 2000s. I have not talked to the PM in almost 5 years. The deposits are made before the 5th of each month, long term tenants, one of them going on 7 yrs now, rarely any repairs!

    I will stick with only class B SFH! I know others can make class C and D work for them!

  • Investor · Member since 2013 · 56 posts · 52 votes
    6y

    @Brie Schmidt  I hope you can insurance on the property and the insurance paid out!

  • Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    6y

    I have to bookmark your post @Azita S. as it provides the visuals why it's a bad idea to invest in D class properties. People always think they just hire a PM and it's all good. It's not that easy.

    Good PM's know better than to take on D class properties, because they have lived through what you describe eary in their careers and they know that they are stuck between a rock and a hard place dealing with these issues and keeping the owner profitabel and happy is mutually exclusive.

    And then there is a whole cluster of issues that you did not even get to - deferred capex. What if you had to replace 5 roofs? Or 10 furnaces? Or some 140 windows? Everything on a building has a finite life and will need to be replaced some day.

    I also have to complement you on your mental toughness - most people would have given up long before and you kept pushing for solutions and ultimatley were able to break even! Others might just take the money and invest in paper assets and never thouch RE again - you have just paid for a very expensive education and you are doing the right thing by applying what you have learned and pushing forward. That is very impressive!

  • Investor · Member since 2013 · 56 posts · 52 votes
    6y

    @Marcus Auerbach

    Thanks!  Several times, I was near my breaking point, but kept pushing through! 

    In my post I forgot to mention the city litter fees LOL! the tenants toss furniture, matress, etc to the curb site, the city cleans it up and charges you!!!! over the years, I got at least one fine per quarter, sometimes multiple in a month!

  • Dawn AnastasiPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    6y

    I've read about class D properties and would never invest in them, even being local.

  • New to Real Estate · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2019 · 15 posts · 6 votes
    6y

    @Azita S. Thank you for sharing your journey through that experience - I m located in LA and am working towards investing in my hometown of Milwaukee so this info was extremely beneficial. Amazed that you were able to construct a happy ending out of such a horror story. As Marcus said.. impressive.

  • Investor · Member since 2013 · 56 posts · 52 votes
    6y

    @Carlton Chestnut

    put together your team before you buy anything! Milwaukee being your hometown, you probably have connections already, but let me know if you need any referrals. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2015 · 299 posts · 90 votes
    6y

    Wow what a story.  Ive been a landlord for 20 years and never gotten burned that bad.  Funny how the deadbeats have a phd in gaming the system. 

  • Real Estate Consultant · Brookfield, WI · Member since 2014 · 873 posts · 350 votes
    6y

    I can say I was PM #3. I tried my best and at that moment in time I found out that wasn't t built to be a property manager even though I'm knowledgeable about management. Sorry @Azita S. I don't do a better job. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    I am impressed & amazed you kept your sanity & yet you quickly developed that unique sense of dark humor which all of us in REI need & eventually gravitate to. Those on the 'outside' will never appreciate this trait.

    Having successfully niched into a lot of successful C/D-Class properties we have seen & experienced it all in our 30+ years, but nothing like your front-line tour of duty. 

    We wish you all the best.

  • Investor · Member since 2013 · 56 posts · 52 votes
    6y

    @Michael Henry  Hey Mike, good to see you here on BP.  Yes, indeed your were PM#3 and I know you tried your best and were not cut out to be a PM.  as I said in my post, you were honest and that's what I appreciate about you.  By the way, I've gotten a ton of private msg asking about Milwaukee referrals and I've referred you a few people looking to invest in Milwaukee! 

  • Investor · Member since 2013 · 56 posts · 52 votes
    6y

    @Pat L.  Thank you!  The way I had to look at it was, it was an investment and all investors make bad decisions at some point.  I could have put that money into the stock market and lost it all.  

    I always try to stay positive and look at the bigger picture.  I could have spent tens of thousands of dollars taking real estate courses to learn the lessons I learned on my own.

    I'm just glad I walked away with the same amount of $$ which in reality was a loss, because if If I had invested in class B properties in a different area, I would have made money through cash flow and appreciation! 

  • Anthony GaydenPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Omaha, NE · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    I don’t play in the hood. That is my rule. I decided on B class single family homes as well that are valued between $100-150k. In my market that is the sweet spot for good rentals.

  • Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2016 · 180 posts · 161 votes
    6y

    @Azita S. Thank you for this post. Much like Marcus Im going to book mark this and show it to my clients as well. Im helping my out of state friend and partner out with a property he bought just like yours in Milwaukee. Paid 23k for a duplex and cottage in a D class neighborhood through a "turnkey" company. Drug dealing tenants in the front property destroyed the place and moved out. Tenant in the back is nice, but when a pipe broke in the basement and flooded the place and she couldnt get a hold of the "turnkey" PM, she called the city. He got hit with a list of code violations like you described and we are still working through it. I told him his best bet would be to liquidate it for 10k and take it as a lesson learned, but he wants to see it through to the end. In the time I took over helping him, we put about 2k into the back house to clear up some code violations and are finishing up another 6-7k doing a full gut of the plumbing lines and putting in a new bathroom. Same thing with the front duplex. All said and done, he'll be in this for about 35k + his initial purchase. Luckily he should be able to refi all of that out and given taxes in the area are 1200 a year, it'll cash flow nice.

    There is no rule book to being successful in real estate investing, but here are a few takeaways that Ive learned in my short time "managing" this compared to my B class rentals. You have to self manage:

    No good PM will manage in these areas, and the service they deliver at scale will not be enough. A lot of these tenants are used to dealing with broken things and PM's/Landlords that dont care. So they have been taught to not say anything, which ends up costing you more money. Im not even talking in the long term, but the near term. 

    If you are hands on and genuine with the tenants you stand a chance at getting someone that is good.When you find that tenant that pays on time, and takes care of the place, keep them. Take that cash flow and put it back in to the property. That tenant that doesnt have an eviction and has a steady income can go live anywhere. Why would they choose a 20k property in a rough area? They wouldnt. 

    At best you put 40k into that 20k property and you have something that looks like it belongs in a C or B neighborhood, with half the price, 1.5x the rents and the tax burden is 1/6th of what you have in those areas. And You sleep better knowing that a pipe wont break and flood the place or wiring wont catch fire and burn it down.

  • Investor · Marin County California · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    I am not sure how the classification system you are using works (class D versus C) but when you think about it people do not choose to live in the worst neighborhoods, they settle for it when there is nothing better available to them.  Accordingly, many of the homes in those areas actually have negative value.  You should not be paying $20K - the present owners should be paying you to take the tax burden off their hands.  

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Michael Henry:

    I can say I was PM #3. I tried my best and at that moment in time I found out that wasn't t built to be a property manager even though I'm knowledgeable about management. Sorry @Azita S. I don't do a better job.

    well have to give you kudo's for chiming in..  D class is a special animal.. about the only folks that I see even remotely have a chance have to self manage.  I for one could not think of a worse job than being a PM on D class..  you made the right decision to exit.

    AS for Azita if the worse of all this was to break even then I think she is a 1 % er.. I suspect only 1% of folks could have broken even in that situation.. i mean right off the bat with a burnt down house you lost 20k on purchase and 15k on demo.. if you had debt on these it would have been a huge loss.  CASH is only way to go with uber low value assets..   Although if you did have debt lender would have made you have fire insurance.. but many get stuck when they have a fire not reading the small print of their policies a lot of policies will not cover a home if its been vacanat for 60 to 90 days you have to get a vacant home rider.  which of course is more money.

  • Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y

    @Azita Shahgaldi Thanks for sharing this story, I think this will be a beneficial read for many new investors on here. I normally wouldn’t condone the overuse of exclamation points in this way, but in this case it seems warranted!!! You could have even gone ALL CAPS for this story, I wouldn’t judge. Happy for you that you got your money back. As Jay mentioned many people probably would have had to file bankruptcy in this situation. Plus there’s a huge opportunity cost to having $100k tied up for several years only to end up with $100k at the end. For example if that same money was parked in a conservative index fund during that time (sounds like about 5 years total?), it could easily be worth about $250-300k now depending on the fund (with compounding interest and dividends), all without any of the stress of dealing with fires, thieving PMs, etc.

  • Rental Property Investor · Ankeny, IA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    @Azita Shahgaldi

    Whoa. First, thanks for sharing this. That takes a lot of guts to put yourself out there like that. Second, I’m very glad you were able to bail and recoup your initial investment.

    I own class B duplexes here in Iowa. I’ve looked at class C and class D. Looked at a lot of them. I simply decided I didn’t have the time and effort it would take. And that was local, where I could keep an eye on everything every day.

    I know a lot of people are very successful in class C and D. But it isn’t for everybody, including me.

  • Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    @Azita Shahgaldi

    This to me is just another lesson in not investing OOS. And not seeing the properties in person before buying.

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    6y

    Thanks for sharing.

    I'd be surprised if D class + 3rd party PM worked anywhere in the country.

  • Contractor · Osterville, MA · Member since 2018 · 41 posts · 30 votes
    6y

    @Azita Shahgaldi

    Thanks... this is very helpful to hear. I’ve often been tempted by cheap priced fixer uppers in questionable areas. I guess the old saying “ if it sounds too good...” has some validity here.

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