Please join me in roasting crappy Appraisers!

Please join me in roasting crappy Appraisers!

Rental Property Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 128 posts · 166 votes

The role of the Appraiser is an odd one: Way too much art (opinions) and way too little science (data-analytics), with way, way, way too little accountability. While the world embraces tech tools to automate workflows and tasks, reduce errors, and thereby increasing precision, the Appraiser is basically doing the same thing they did 80+ years ago.  Show up with a tape measure and a camera, pretend like they are doing something scientific, pontificating unscientific opinions, charging ridiculous fees for said opinions, then going home with no accountability for the disasters that stems from those opinions. And the worse part: we have to pay for this rubbish, and live with the rubbish for 3-6 months we can pay for new rubbish --OR live with the rubbish and make a whole helluva lot less $$ then a scientific method would have yielded.

These people are not scientists.  They are not "professionals" in a true sense of the word.  Yes, in exchange for 75 hours you too can obtain a license to be an Appraiser and work on your own!  No one will check your work.  That's NOT a professional.  And by extension, it should no longer be a profession.  

This is a role in our investor ecosystem that is ripe for automation and transformation. I, for one, am sick and tired of these opinions (and folks, let's be honest -- that's all they are offering here.  75+ hours of qualification to offer you their opinion on what they think your property is worth.) Now I know there is the occasional rare professional equipped with both experience and a scientific method.  Well, I don't actually "know" -- I just suspect.  I've never actually had the privilege of meeting or interacting with such a rare species. (And to be fair, Robert Kiyosaki has said (once) 'a great Appraiser is invaluable.' I've just concluded that this is must be some mythical creature that would have great value if the creature actually existed.  But I digress...)

Alas, I don't know what one individual can do.  The ecosystem is set up to require us to get an appraisal the same ol' way we've been getting them since the 1930s.  So all I can do is joke about it.  So please join me in sharing your favorite Appraiser joke.  I'll start:

“What does an appraiser’s wife say if she can’t sleep? ‘Honey, tell me about your day at work.’”

Ok, one more...

“I finally figured out how to make a million dollars in the real estate business. You ask an Appraiser to appraise your two million property that you own free and clear.”

Keep it going... go on! I know you have a favorite.  Please share!

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IA · Member since 2019 · 33 posts · 29 votes
6y

 ..Weathermen/women?

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Lee RipmaPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Prairie Village, KS · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    @Greg Moore

    Oh man, I love this rant. I could go on and on about how ridiculous and based on absolutely nothing an apprasil is.

    I love when people say-well the only way to know the value would be to have it appraised! Oh really? What would that do?

    Spot on with stuck in the 30s but with a digital camera from 2005.

    One of my favorite apprasil stories is that I bought a duplex in really poor condition with low rents for cash. I then fixed it up nice and got the rents way up. I had it appraised so I could refi. It came back at what I had paid cash in the MLS. $110k. So I sold it. Exact same property two weeks later except in sold it for 100k over what it was recorded as being sold for in the MLS. Same property, same condition, same time. 100k difference. Now tell me again what you learned in those 75 hours.

  • Rental Property Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 128 posts · 166 votes
    6y

    Gosh @Lee Ripma that's a helluva story.  And one that rings true for me.  I remember the first home I ever owned in my mid-twenties.  An Appraiser appraised the home I was selling for $80k less than I sold it for the following week.  I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was something like $120k appraisal, but a $200k purchase price within 1 week!  (I don't think the same rules applied back then of having to wait for 3-6 months before getting a new "Appraisal."). What other industry is allowed to underperform so grossly and get away with it??! And sadly, it's been that way on just about every home I've sold over the years, including one last week.  I've got another Appraisal happening today.  I'm already bracing myself for a clown car to pull up to the property.

  • Contractor · North Port, FL · Member since 2020 · 6 posts · 2 votes
    6y

    @Greg Moore

    I'm not experienced in any these items yet but I can agree with you while heartedly. But from another perspective to add to what you are saying. I'm looking to my my first home for myself and my family. This past week we went to look at what looked like a nice home here in North Port Florida. Some Arizona investment company bought it February 10 of this year for $185k and did a "remodel" and put it back the market for $225. When I went to look at it I was only left in disgust. I'm a contractor( flooring cabinets and carpentry) all of it was done horrifically. Cheap old cabinets covered horribly with a paint brush with dripping and such. Vinyl floors cut crooked up to cabinets with quarter inch gaps. A bedroom door was relocated to a newly made location(same door), from with the cut out I imagine was used to fill the old opening. Completely visible old opening. Over spray through out the home and doors from walls. So basically they would have been better off if they had just asked for more money with out the remodel. Am I missing something here or don't understand something?

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    Here is a really interesting one I had some years ago: 

    I renovated a 950sqf 2/1 shotgun home that was in a few blocks that belonged (was claimed) by 2 adjoining neighborhoods. 

    1) Grant Park, full of 1800sqf and larger homes, selling for 300-400K then

    2) Cabbagetown full of small 2/1 900-1000sqf shotgun homes, selling for 280-290k

    I had an extra lot and I added an addition of about 500sqf. Now this house was 3/2 and 1450 sqf

    The appraiser didn't pull comps from 1, because the homes were too large. He didn't pull comps from 2, because the comps were too small. So, he went miles out of the area to find a few other homes (these were fixer-uppers) at that size and the appraisal came in at 160K. 

    So, if I had torn off the addition and made it a 950sqf 2/1 again, it would have been worth 290k. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Kansas City · Member since 2018 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    @Michaela G. That is pretty stupid of the appraiser. They throw common sense out the window. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 128 posts · 166 votes
    6y

    @Lee Ripma - I had a house appraised today.  I had to laugh because she showed up with a plastic roller toy that presumably measures distances and, wait for it... a 2005 digital camera! hahaha. I said "My that digital camera looks a bit old.  How old is it?"  She said, "Gosh, I have had it for about 15 years."  (I thought, "Yep, Lee nailed that one!")

    To continue my rant: this lady was late for the first scheduled appraisal a few weeks ago.  After 30 minutes late, I texted her to know when she would arrive.  She said 30 min.  That's an hour late and she wasn't going to tell me?? Unprofessional.  An hour after she was supposed to be at the property, I texted her and told her to just cancel.  (I had other meetings!). So today was the reschedule. Late again.  So unprofessional.  She proceeds rolling her little red toy around and snapping photos.  I asked her, given the house would have been appraised about a year ago by someone from her profession, wouldn't those measurements hold?  Plus it was new construction the year before.  Wouldn't the county inspectors have to measure and confirm the actual size is the same as the floor plan??  I asked her if it was common for homes to shrink or expand so much that they needed remeasuring?  She proceeded to scribble notes on a piece of paper.  (Meanwhile, every other profession has switched to cloud-based apps and tablets or phones to record data.   She asks: "So this is a 3 bedroom 2 bath?"  Me: yes, isn't that what the county recorded? Isn't that what you just counted on your own?"  #hand-to-face.  

    I have no idea what roulette table she will use to guess the value of the property.  But I'm sure about one thing. Whatever she submits will be 100% unscientific and based solely on her opinions about what her little red toy told her the size of the perimeter of the property is.

    EVOLVE!  Come on Appraisers... EVOLVE for goodness sake! (No make that for Investors' sake)

  • IA · Member since 2019 · 33 posts · 29 votes
    6y

     ..Weathermen/women?

  • Rental Property Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 128 posts · 166 votes
    6y

    LOL :)

  • Lee RipmaPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Prairie Village, KS · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    @Greg Moore

    Right? It's just so ridiculous. I am about to close on a property I'm selling. Buyers appraisal came in 80k below what I am selling for. The appraiser used the "only two comps he could find." The comps were producing 1200/mo less than my property and were not rehabbed. They were a cash sale to an investor who will rehab and probably sell for a ton. Buyer switched lenders and the appraisal just came in 3k over what my buyer is paying. So we had a 84k swing in value in 2 weeks. You know what the value is of a property? What someone will pay me for it! UGH! I'm so glad the buyer stuck with it and saw how foolish the first appraisal was. It is really frustrating though. With all this cornavirus time I should spend the 75 hours to become an appraiser! Be the change you want to see in the world and all! 

  • Adrian StamerPro Member
    Real Estate Investor & Agent · Richmond, VA · Member since 2013 · 319 posts · 167 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Nick N.:

     ..Weathermen/women?

    Haha I was going to say the same, weather forecasters. Just imagine if surgeons got it right as often as weather forecasts  

  • Dan H.Pro Member
    Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Lee Ripma:

    @Greg Moore

    Oh man, I love this rant. I could go on and on about how ridiculous and based on absolutely nothing an apprasil is.

    I love when people say-well the only way to know the value would be to have it appraised! Oh really? What would that do?

    Spot on with stuck in the 30s but with a digital camera from 2005.

    One of my favorite apprasil stories is that I bought a duplex in really poor condition with low rents for cash. I then fixed it up nice and got the rents way up. I had it appraised so I could refi. It came back at what I had paid cash in the MLS. $110k. So I sold it. Exact same property two weeks later except in sold it for 100k over what it was recorded as being sold for in the MLS. Same property, same condition, same time. 100k difference. Now tell me again what you learned in those 75 hours.

    Your example is what irks me the most about appraisals.  An appraisal associated with an offer will almost always come back close to that offer price.  A refi appraisal will, in my market, always use the lowest comps even if the RE has just been rehabbed.  They regularly come in 10%+ less than what the RE could sell for.

    A property should have the same appraised value regardless if it is being sold or being refinanced. The property is worth the same regardless of if refinanced or being sold. If the lending institution desires more safety margin, it should not be achieved by a low appraisal but lowering the LTV associated with the refi.

    I had the same appraiser do 2 of my properties that were being refinanced (I think the same appraiser should never do more than one appraisal for an owner in a year).  The first one came back absurdly low.  There was not a single comp that had a per unit cost as low as my appraisal.  I challenged it and got a $70K upper, but actual value was more like $120K more than initial appraisal.  The second one comes in almost as bad.  I go to challenge it.  The appraiser disappears.  Literally runs away; possibly ashamed at his competence.  I could not finish the challenge.  I had to either loose the lock and start the loan over or accept the pathetic appraisal.  That is something broken in the process.  I ended up getting a refi on an appraised value that was likely $80K below market (I suspect I would have gotten ~$50K adjustment if my appeal could have been processed).  That was the worse appraiser I have dealt with.

    It has gotten to where I simply expect the refi appraisals to be 10%+ less than the value that I could sell the RE for. It is like a 80% LTV is really a 70% LTV, but I am getting charged the rate associated with the 80% LTV. Racket.

    All I can say is challenge the incompetence.  My mortgage broker instructed me to just present the facts in the challenge.  I did not really follow his advice as my challenge was full of snide remarks such as how can a rehabbed Triplex have a lower per unit cost than every comp referenced?  I did my best to point out just how bad the appraiser was (so maybe I am the reason he ran away but at the time I did not know he was the appraiser on my other property being refinanced and I definitely did not know what happens if the appraiser disappears).

    Various people point out how inaccurate Zillow estimate (ZEstimate), redfin estimate, etc. are.  Well I have dealt with one appraiser that makes their numbers look extremely accurate.  My own belief is in a tract area, where the homes are similar except for condition, the automated estimates are fairly close.  The more unique a property is, the less accurate the automatic estimates.  I do not see eliminating appraisers in every case, but that maybe for tract homes the appraiser makes adjustments to the automated estimated value based primarily on condition, add ons, etc. 

  • Dan H.Pro Member
    Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Greg Moore:

    @Lee Ripma - I had a house appraised today.  I had to laugh because she showed up with a plastic roller toy that presumably measures distances and, wait for it... a 2005 digital camera! hahaha. I said "My that digital camera looks a bit old.  How old is it?"  She said, "Gosh, I have had it for about 15 years."  (I thought, "Yep, Lee nailed that one!")

    To continue my rant: this lady was late for the first scheduled appraisal a few weeks ago.  After 30 minutes late, I texted her to know when she would arrive.  She said 30 min.  That's an hour late and she wasn't going to tell me?? Unprofessional.  An hour after she was supposed to be at the property, I texted her and told her to just cancel.  (I had other meetings!). So today was the reschedule. Late again.  So unprofessional.  She proceeds rolling her little red toy around and snapping photos.  I asked her, given the house would have been appraised about a year ago by someone from her profession, wouldn't those measurements hold?  Plus it was new construction the year before.  Wouldn't the county inspectors have to measure and confirm the actual size is the same as the floor plan??  I asked her if it was common for homes to shrink or expand so much that they needed remeasuring?  She proceeded to scribble notes on a piece of paper.  (Meanwhile, every other profession has switched to cloud-based apps and tablets or phones to record data.   She asks: "So this is a 3 bedroom 2 bath?"  Me: yes, isn't that what the county recorded? Isn't that what you just counted on your own?"  #hand-to-face.  

    I have no idea what roulette table she will use to guess the value of the property.  But I'm sure about one thing. Whatever she submits will be 100% unscientific and based solely on her opinions about what her little red toy told her the size of the perimeter of the property is.

    EVOLVE!  Come on Appraisers... EVOLVE for goodness sake! (No make that for Investors' sake)

    So she missed her appointed time.  It can happen but it sounds to be possibly a regular occurrence in her case. 

    In my market (possibly all markets) there are certain items that will hold up the appraisal.  Many of these items are trivial to fix such as missing smoke/Carbon monoxide detector, water heater not properly strapped, etc.  So I have had some appraisers be reasonable and accept photos of the addressed issue(s).  However, I have had other appraisers not accept photos and charge to verify the discrepancies have been addressed.  We now have a small check list of items to check prior to the appraiser checking the property, but at our last refi we added one.  One of the windows had a crack in the corner that the tenant did not notify us (we did not know about it).  It was maybe 3" crack at the bottom right (looking in) edge about 1" from the bottom.  Apparently they would not refinance it with the cracked window so it needed to be repaired so we got it repaired.  Shot a photo of the window fixed, but the appraiser would not accept the photo (like we would maybe photoshop the pictures???).  Regardless we had to pay for the appraiser to verify the repair.  It is not so much the cost of the verification but why????  Why not accept the photo as proof?  Especially our units that are pretty nice (they are not LL neglected).

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y



    I've got an appraiser joke...

    Appraisers who provide opinions of value in an amount that supports the loan are considered good appraisers who have developed and reported a good appraisal 99% of the time.

    Appraisers who provide opinions of value in an amount that does not support the loan are considered bad appraisers who have developed and reported a bad appraisal 99% of the time.

    All Appraisers develop and report mortgage appraisals the same way 100% of the time.

  • Rental Property Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 128 posts · 166 votes
    6y

    @Dan Heuschele - exactly. “Why?!” What purpose are they serving? No one is responsible for the entire chain of service providers. Therefore no one is looking to improve the process the same way a business would innovate, automate, and remove ineffective and/or inefficient people and processes. Thanks for your post on this topic.

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2012 · 269 posts · 187 votes
    6y

    Your timing is great, just got an appraisal late yesterday that I was expecting would be around $325k. The value they arrived at was $245k. Killed my refi immediately, and the worst part is I had to pay for the appraisal to give me the bad news.

    In all honesty, though, I'm not mad. I was probably being too optimistic with my numbers. I do think $245k is low, but that's just how it works and I can understand some of their logic. Can't be mad at them for my expectations being too high.

  • Crown Point, IN · Member since 2018 · 56 posts · 23 votes
    6y

    Oh, I have a few of these, and I've only been at it a couple years.

    My second property was a BRRR of sorts though I didnt know that had a name at the time. I bought a short sale to flip. I renovated it and put it on the market. Following a strategy that I had read about on BP and heard from my RE agent, I put it for sale and for rent. This will become important again on my third property. Once rented, I went for a HELOC.

    This 1700 sq. ft. 4/2 split level was appraised as an 1100 sq. ft. 3/1. To the appraiser, none of the rooms or square footage that were below grade, counted even though the basement had full size windows and was only maybe 30-40 inches in the ground. If company policy of the appraiser or the bank dictates that basements are of lesser value, I get it, but they didn't give it lesser value, they just ignored that area completely and compared it to 1100 sq. ft. ranches on crawl spaces. Im not even sure its fair to compare 2 similar sized houses where one is on a full basement and the other on a crawl at a 1:1 ratio as the full basement, even unfinished, allows mechanicals to be in the basement freeing up more usable space in the living area. The appraisal came in about 30k below what I was shooting for which I admit is only 20k-25k below what I realistically expected. But in the end, the bank ignored that and went even lower and based the LTV on what I paid for the house before reno instead of what it was worth at time of appraisal. They offered me a line of credit that was 80% of a number that was probably 40k-50k below its value which would be a line of credit that is only about 53% of my equity, but that bit is not entirely the appraisers fault.

    My third property was listed just a few months after that. I got an offer 1k over asking in less than 5 hours with several other showings already scheduled for the weekend. My realtor hadn't even finished taking good pictures and had listed it with a couple of place holder snap shots. The house was just two blocks from my previous house and exactly the same sq ft. and the same layout on main level and upstairs, except the basement was set up differently, instead of a 4th bedroom in the basement, the utility room and lower living room were larger. This resulted in less bedrooms but had nicer neighbors so I expected the value to be largely the same. Buyer's lender appraised the house 8k below purchase agreement citing a comp that was very similar listed just a few months ago at a similar price point that had failed to sell and was pulled off the market. THAT WAS MY PREVIOUS HOUSE! It didn't "fail" to sell. I found a tenant and I was no longer interested in selling. 

    If I had that much interest in the house, could it be that your opinion is stupid? Its just that, an opinion. What happened to the old adage that something is worth what someone else is willing to pay for it?

    Its also worth pointing out that every appraiser I have dealt with so far are from areas far away from the property in question, sometimes not even the same state. How are they supposed to know all the little details that can affect the house prices in this area.

    I have more but don't need to post as one giant block of text.

  • Crown Point, IN · Member since 2018 · 56 posts · 23 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Rich Bultema:

    My third property was listed just a few months after that. I got an offer 1k over asking in less than 5 hours with several other showings already scheduled for the weekend. My realtor hadn't even finished taking good pictures and had listed it with a couple of place holder snap shots. The house was just two blocks from my previous house and exactly the same sq ft. and the same layout on main level and upstairs, except the basement was set up differently, instead of a 4th bedroom in the basement, the utility room and lower living room were larger. This resulted in less bedrooms but had nicer neighbors so I expected the value to be largely the same. Buyer's lender appraised the house 8k below purchase agreement citing a comp that was very similar listed just a few months ago at a similar price point that had failed to sell and was pulled off the market. THAT WAS MY PREVIOUS HOUSE! It didn't "fail" to sell. I found a tenant and I was no longer interested in selling it.

     I forgot that the appraiser had listed my previous property as both a "sold" property from when a bought it and a listed/unsold property from when I rented it as two separate comps. That might be normal but I thought it was a bit goofy.

  • Rental Property Investor · Ankeny, IA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    My last five purchases and appraisals have all appraised at EXACTLY the purchase price in the Purchase Agreement. January 2019; agreed to purchase a duplex for $285k. Appraised at exactly $285k. August 2019; agreed to purchase an identical duplex a block away from last one. I mean, identical. Even the county assessor has them at the same value. This one was a FSBO, agreed to buy for $274k. Financing through same bank. Appraised at.....$274k.

    Appraisals are about as solid as Zillow "Zestimates". 

  • Investor · Sugar Hill, GA · Member since 2014 · 168 posts · 97 votes
    6y

    It's good to know that I am not the only one that think that appraisals done by "appraisers" are not done professionally. 

    I have run into a few cases. This is one:

    I was to sold a 2 year old house in a relatively new subdivision, presumably with many comparables,  to my daughter. I set the price at $180k (which I new was below market)  and she applied for a loan and the appraisal came at 181K. The sale did not go through because she got a promotion and decided to stay in a different state.  I put the house right away in the market for 220K and I got an offer for 225K. (the buyer wanted 5 back as contribution to closing costs). The appraisal came at 226K. 

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    It's a house of cards.

    I was an appraiser for 14 years, specialized in mortgage work, just like nearly all professional appraisers out there.

    Out of the handful of appraisers out there that don't do mortgage work, many, if not most, started in mortgage work or were taught how to do appraisals from a mentor that was versed in mortgage work as their first introduction to the appraisal of real property. 

    What I'm getting at here is the influence of mortgage work on the entire Professional Appraisal Practice is much more than substantial, it has been a defining force in the industry, permeating all aspects of real property appraisal and by association, the appraisal of personal property too.

    This is of course due to the need for appraisers in the first place. Without the need created out of the finance industry, very few real property appraisers would exist. I might guess the numbers would be similar to the number of Personal Property Appraisers that exist today who are by the way, governed in many cases by the same "rule book" of professional standards as Real Property Appraisers are, called the Uniform Standards of the Professional Appraisal Practice or USPAP for short. (The Antiques Road Show on PBS television is a documentary series covering Personal Property Appraisers and their Appraisal Clients in a conference hall setting).

    USPAP itself is not the law. However, numerous law enforcement agencies have adopted the text into law, some federal agencies, some state agencies, and even some local agencies in a few cases. Insurance companies have adopted USPAP in some cases. The IRS has adopted USPAP in some cases. Etc etc. USPAP is a self-governed document for the appraisal practice profession, a trade organization document one might say. But there are some very sinister things everyone ought to know about the USPAP document.

    USPAP was originally written in the 1980's after the Savings & Loan crisis (maybe some of you remember that event) where the fact of the matter was, banks were employing appraisers the same way they do now, to value an asset for purposes of underwriting a loan however, loan brokers and appraisers were too "cozy" with their work together, and were even employed by the same bank and working in the same office in many cases, where fraud began to find it's evil way into one bank, then another, then another.

    The important part to remember here is that while each bank is it's own entity, the industry acts as a whole sometimes, similar to how the real estate market acts as a whole sometimes. For instance, when prices go up or down within a market segment, all of the individual buyers and sellers are affected. In the case of the S & L crisis of the 1980's, and in the case of today, the finance industry has been intertwined with numerous forces that shape the consumer landscape. Each and every problem discussed in this thread, save for the complaints of poor customer service from individual appraisers at the personal level, stem from this dynamic, where mortgage appraisals are but one piece of a larger formula we all know and love as the ability to obtain funds using credit or OPM (other peoples money, as is commonly phrased by many investors here on BP).

    USPAP was taken over by the Appraisal Standards Board or ASB since the 1980's, under the oversight of the Appraisal Subcommittee, the entity granted the power of over-sight by the United States Congress. What that means, is USPAP started as a trade organization document born from the input of appraisers only, while today it is written and updated according to the ASB, which allows input from parties other than appraisers, for example financial institutions. The affect is that the modern USPAP end up serving multiple masters in a situation when the entire purpose of the profession was to separate the masters from each other.

    Seems the smart people have found a way to keep the loan brokers and appraisers cozy after all without anyone realizing it's happening. But why? How? Is it accidental and I've let my cynical mind get the best of me? Could it be that the only thing needed is a few rewrites? Perhaps. Perhaps not. I keep going back to how smart people are smart, powerful people are powerful, and if a person was smart enough and powerful enough, they might come up with a scheme. Then, when I consider how USPAP shapes the world, I can't help but notice it makes for the most perfect scheme that could have been thought of - LOL - a defining example of a conspiracy theory right??? Well, as the old saying goes, theory is something unproven, while facts are things we know to be true. I won't be able to prove collusion, but I can prove conspiracy, even if the conspiracy did not intend to create adverse consequences.

    Everyone still with me here or have I written too many sentences? The background and context to this story must be understood.

    Here's the problem and here's why the government stepped in to regulate. The financial industry means housing, housing means loans, and when the whole thing collapses from bad practices people lose their houses and lose their money and in addition to that, the over-all economy suffers too. This happened on a country level in 1980 and happened on a global level in 2009. The term "housing bubble" became a household word from each of these events.

    People believe real estate markets are driven buy the individual decisions made of buyers and sellers and that's true. What is also true, is that the individuals are additionally influenced by policy. Therefore, the purchase or sale decision of individuals is not as free and pure as many people perceive it to be (including misperceptions from incompetent appraisers sometimes). Indeed, policy can and does influence prices and the economy. It's a great tool for government, it's a great tool for society, it's a great tool for business, it can also be a very bad thing. The question then becomes do we accept to take the good with the bad? One interesting thing about laws, is they are much easier to create than they are to get rid of. Another interesting thing is often they are too complicated to understand what might be wrong with them. I might conclude the complicated nature is the problem, but other people would argue the complication is necessary and so it must exist.

    Some of those "bad things" are the things being expressed in this thread today. Ignorance for starters. Confusion. Anger. Financial loss. I would like to take one topic, an enormous one, and explain how the regulated world of loans for housing has the adverse consequence of perpetual increases to housing prices all across the country, witnessed personally by all of us in the last 20-30 years, where few comprehensive answers to why markets continue to increase in price have been found. I will demonstrate how it is the USPAP, in combination with other forces, that accomplishes an artificial and perpetual increase in prices. I will need at least one person to like this post to do that however, as I am not going to waste my time on a crowd that isn't interested. It took a considerable amount of time to write as much as I have already. If all any of you want to do is take a moment to vent about the appraiser, even in the presence of a former appraiser, I won't say another word about it, you go ahead and enjoy yourselves. I'll throw in how annoying it is to have a stranger enter my home and take pictures of everything!!!

    Be well.

    My advice? Every investor must learn to be their own appraiser or they will likely fail.

    Second piece of advice? Never read a mortgage appraisal unless you're an underwriter and your job requires it as due diligence. You will poison your minds and drive yourselves crazy attempting to make sense of any of it - the evidence of that statement is found right here in this thread.

  • Member since 2018 · 16 posts · 4 votes
    6y

    Is it common for appraisal to come back exactly as the offered sale price?

  • Rental Property Investor · Erie, PA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    Every property I've ever purchased that was appraised has appraised within $500-$1500 of the purchase price. It's like the appraiser looks at the purchase price and works to justify it as to keep from being blamed for a property going underwater in the event the market turns. 

    The only silver-lining is when I go to argue down my property taxes their defense of 'you got a great deal' is shot down when I give them the paperwork with the low appraisal. 

  • Crown Point, IN · Member since 2018 · 56 posts · 23 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    It's a house of cards.

    I was an appraiser for 14 years, specialized in mortgage work, just like nearly all professional appraisers out there.

    Out of the handful of appraisers out there that don't do mortgage work, many, if not most, started in mortgage work or were taught how to do appraisals from a mentor that was versed in mortgage work as their first introduction to the appraisal of real property. 

    What I'm getting at here is the influence of mortgage work on the entire Professional Appraisal Practice is much more than substantial, it has been a defining force in the industry, permeating all aspects of real property appraisal and by association, the appraisal of personal property too.

    This is of course due to the need for appraisers in the first place. Without the need created out of the finance industry, very few real property appraisers would exist. I might guess the numbers would be similar to the number of Personal Property Appraisers that exist today who are by the way, governed in many cases by the same "rule book" of professional standards as Real Property Appraisers are, called the Uniform Standards of the Professional Appraisal Practice or USPAP for short. (The Antiques Road Show on PBS television is a documentary series covering Personal Property Appraisers and their Appraisal Clients in a conference hall setting).

    USPAP itself is not the law. However, numerous law enforcement agencies have adopted the text into law, some federal agencies, some state agencies, and even some local agencies in a few cases. Insurance companies have adopted USPAP in some cases. The IRS has adopted USPAP in some cases. Etc etc. USPAP is a self-governed document for the appraisal practice profession, a trade organization document one might say. But there are some very sinister things everyone ought to know about the USPAP document.

    USPAP was originally written in the 1980's after the Savings & Loan crisis (maybe some of you remember that event) where the fact of the matter was, banks were employing appraisers the same way they do now, to value an asset for purposes of underwriting a loan however, loan brokers and appraisers were too "cozy" with their work together, and were even employed by the same bank and working in the same office in many cases, where fraud began to find it's evil way into one bank, then another, then another.

    The important part to remember here is that while each bank is it's own entity, the industry acts as a whole sometimes, similar to how the real estate market acts as a whole sometimes. For instance, when prices go up or down within a market segment, all of the individual buyers and sellers are affected. In the case of the S & L crisis of the 1980's, and in the case of today, the finance industry has been intertwined with numerous forces that shape the consumer landscape. Each and every problem discussed in this thread, save for the complaints of poor customer service from individual appraisers at the personal level, stem from this dynamic, where mortgage appraisals are but one piece of a larger formula we all know and love as the ability to obtain funds using credit or OPM (other peoples money, as is commonly phrased by many investors here on BP).

    USPAP was taken over by the Appraisal Standards Board or ASB since the 1980's, under the oversight of the Appraisal Subcommittee, the entity granted the power of over-sight by the United States Congress. What that means, is USPAP started as a trade organization document born from the input of appraisers only, while today it is written and updated according to the ASB, which allows input from parties other than appraisers, for example financial institutions. The affect is that the modern USPAP end up serving multiple masters in a situation when the entire purpose of the profession was to separate the masters from each other.

    Seems the smart people have found a way to keep the loan brokers and appraisers cozy after all without anyone realizing it's happening. But why? How? Is it accidental and I've let my cynical mind get the best of me? Could it be that the only thing needed is a few rewrites? Perhaps. Perhaps not. I keep going back to how smart people are smart, powerful people are powerful, and if a person was smart enough and powerful enough, they might come up with a scheme. Then, when I consider how USPAP shapes the world, I can't help but notice it makes for the most perfect scheme that could have been thought of - LOL - a defining example of a conspiracy theory right??? Well, as the old saying goes, theory is something unproven, while facts are things we know to be true. I won't be able to prove collusion, but I can prove conspiracy, even if the conspiracy did not intend to create adverse consequences.

    Everyone still with me here or have I written too many sentences? The background and context to this story must be understood.

    Here's the problem and here's why the government stepped in to regulate. The financial industry means housing, housing means loans, and when the whole thing collapses from bad practices people lose their houses and lose their money and in addition to that, the over-all economy suffers too. This happened on a country level in 1980 and happened on a global level in 2009. The term "housing bubble" became a household word from each of these events.

    People believe real estate markets are driven buy the individual decisions made of buyers and sellers and that's true. What is also true, is that the individuals are additionally influenced by policy. Therefore, the purchase or sale decision of individuals is not as free and pure as many people perceive it to be (including misperceptions from incompetent appraisers sometimes). Indeed, policy can and does influence prices and the economy. It's a great tool for government, it's a great tool for society, it's a great tool for business, it can also be a very bad thing. The question then becomes do we accept to take the good with the bad? One interesting thing about laws, is they are much easier to create than they are to get rid of. Another interesting thing is often they are too complicated to understand what might be wrong with them. I might conclude the complicated nature is the problem, but other people would argue the complication is necessary and so it must exist.

    Some of those "bad things" are the things being expressed in this thread today. Ignorance for starters. Confusion. Anger. Financial loss. I would like to take one topic, an enormous one, and explain how the regulated world of loans for housing has the adverse consequence of perpetual increases to housing prices all across the country, witnessed personally by all of us in the last 20-30 years, where few comprehensive answers to why markets continue to increase in price have been found. I will demonstrate how it is the USPAP, in combination with other forces, that accomplishes an artificial and perpetual increase in prices. I will need at least one person to like this post to do that however, as I am not going to waste my time on a crowd that isn't interested. It took a considerable amount of time to write as much as I have already. If all any of you want to do is take a moment to vent about the appraiser, even in the presence of a former appraiser, I won't say another word about it, you go ahead and enjoy yourselves. I'll throw in how annoying it is to have a stranger enter my home and take pictures of everything!!!

    Be well.

    My advice? Every investor must learn to be their own appraiser or they will likely fail.

    Second piece of advice? Never read a mortgage appraisal unless you're an underwriter and your job requires it as due diligence. You will poison your minds and drive yourselves crazy attempting to make sense of any of it - the evidence of that statement is found right here in this thread.

     Always interested in learning more. Not afraid to hear when and how I am wrong if the my posts were some of the ones being refereed to. Doesn't do me any good to stick my fingers in my ears out of pride.

  • Investor · Simpsonville, SC · Member since 2015 · 19 posts · 32 votes
    6y

    Great discussion! I have always questioned their independence and “non-objective” appraisals and comps. In my experience, I often feel like they are working for the other party (buying agent or bank) because some of the comps don’t make sense. I have the experience and know how to pull recent sold’s (closed public records sold) along with pictures to object to what they have but they won’t listen or even take into account what I found.

    I would like a way to challenge the appraisal. Maybe there is and I don’t know?

  • Rental Property Investor · Northern NJ · Member since 2019 · 672 posts · 677 votes
    6y

    @Greg Moore My last appraiser made me fix all these chincy ridiculous items that made no sense to my lender or agent (VA loan). Spent the day fixing them. The kicker? He lied and said they were good and he came by and saw them. Really you checked out my work? Interesting. How did you get into the house when only myself and my realtor has keys and you didnt contact either of us?

    Legal theft. Great thread.

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