Facebook Shifting Many Employees to Permanent Remote Work

Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 338 posts · 444 votes

Well, this could definitely be a market mover around my neck of the woods and across the country. Facebook will permanently shift up to half of its employees to remote work.

Will people choose to live in the Bay Area if they don't need to be near work? I've got to give this some thought!

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Justin Thorpe

Member since 2020 · 437 posts · 675 votes

@Robert C.

So far FB, Twitter, Square are the big employers who have announced a permanent WFH policy. FB has put more detail on this.

First, they are stating 50% of staff over the next 5 years will be remote. They are also saying they will hire aggressively and grow headcount. So what if they double their headcount in 5 years and allow only 50% of them to work remotely. That means the number of FB employees who work locally will state flat to today’s figure.

Second, it’s not an automatic perk. Only those employees who are “eligible” can avail the remote option. So many employees may not make the cut.

Third, those who opt in, will be paid adjusted salaries based on their new city of location vs take their SF salaries in those locations.

My own take is that the remote option looks great on paper but it’s not for everyone. I mean what if you can work remotely for FB but your spouse’s employee does not support WFH. What if you have kids who are in middle or high schools. What if you are a senior exec.

All that means you stay local vs moving to the forests of Wyoming, but on the plus side you get to avoid local Bay Area commute and live a bit further out maybe.

Also remote working is not uncommon in the tech business. People work remotely often, sometimes 2 days a week or more. Many times these folks tend to get left behind in careers vs others who show more time at the office and network. So again for the ambitious, remote working may not appeal.

In the end large Bay Area employees like HP, Apple, SalesForce, Tesla, NetApp, Intel, nVidia, Google, NetFlix, Intuit, AirBnB, Uber, PayPal, eBay, VISA, Oracle and many others are only telling employees to work remotely until the next few months vs permanently.

So yes while a few companies like FB and Twitter are pushing the envelope, most others are not.

What this means is the residential market should largely remain ok and un impacted. There are concerns on commercial RE and rightly so.

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Steve Vaughan
Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Matthew Irish-Jones:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Matthew Irish-Jones:
@Robert C. I started seeing some of this in Buffalo NY over the last couple years. As remote work jobs because available for people living in NYC they decided to move to Buffalo.
Buffalo is no NYC but it’s a lot cheaper place to live, has less traffic and a more affordable place to investor for smaller investors. Any remote workers without roots in the city found it advantageous to get a NYC salary at a Buffalo cost of living
this is why Vegas may not crash.. so many CA OR residents moving there.. NO state income tax.. work remote. reasonable priced homes compared to the coast.

Seattle is a perfect example.. just hop over the cascades and live somewhere in the Wenatchee area or the WA wine country.
Scoot down and live in White Salmon across from Hood river all of these pretty cool spots with not state income tax.. and reasonable year round weather and lots to do out doors great quality of life.
others maybe attracted though more for the Puget sound area but NO one likes the Seattle area commutes thats a given.

Agree with Jay. If you want an ocean feel without as much fog, rain, or commute- I like Whidbey Island. Middle like Oak Harbor, Coupeville. They're in the rain shadow and get less than half the rain Seattle does.

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Matthew Irish-Jones:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Matthew Irish-Jones:
@Robert C. I started seeing some of this in Buffalo NY over the last couple years. As remote work jobs because available for people living in NYC they decided to move to Buffalo.
Buffalo is no NYC but it’s a lot cheaper place to live, has less traffic and a more affordable place to investor for smaller investors. Any remote workers without roots in the city found it advantageous to get a NYC salary at a Buffalo cost of living
this is why Vegas may not crash.. so many CA OR residents moving there.. NO state income tax.. work remote. reasonable priced homes compared to the coast.

Seattle is a perfect example.. just hop over the cascades and live somewhere in the Wenatchee area or the WA wine country.
Scoot down and live in White Salmon across from Hood river all of these pretty cool spots with not state income tax.. and reasonable year round weather and lots to do out doors great quality of life.
others maybe attracted though more for the Puget sound area but NO one likes the Seattle area commutes thats a given.

Agree with Jay. If you want an ocean feel without as much fog, rain, or commute- I like Whidbey Island. Middle like Oak Harbor, Coupeville. They're in the rain shadow and get less than half the rain Seattle does.

I like Friday Harbor and East Sound.. Of course because of the airports being right in town.. but really cool places.

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Steve Vaughan
Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
6y
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:

I like Friday Harbor and East Sound.. Of course because of the airports being right in town.. but really cool places.

Definitely. Fun facts on rain. Some don't care but I need me some sun.

Avg annual rainfall: Seattle 38" Friday Harbor 27" Whidbey Island (mid-north) 22".

Whidbey also has the Naval Air Station for potential renters.

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Justin Thorpe
Member since 2020 · 437 posts · 675 votes
6y
One unfortunate angle is this “remote work” might dramatically slow down the trend of tech companies like FB and Google that were until recently expanding office locations into many parts outside the Bay Area.
An office location employing 200 - 500 - 2000 tech employees ends up moving the needle in most towns and cities but with remote work those expansion plans are likely not going to move fast or forward at all to the detriment of high potential towns and cities that could have benefited.
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Glen P.
Member since 2018 · 10 posts · 32 votes
6y
This reminds me of that back in the day the offices needed space for file cabinets. Now there are more workers and less file cabinets. More parking spaces are needed in old office buildings.
Soon renters might require extra space for both wife and husband to be working from home.
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Mike D.
Investor · Marion, IA · Member since 2010 · 177 posts · 117 votes
6y
My first thought is if they don't need you in the office then they can just offshore your job to an H1B Indian.
Or they will hire contractors instead of employees.
Either way this sounds like another way for these Fortune 500 tech companies to dodge liability and cut costs.
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Justin Thorpe
Member since 2020 · 437 posts · 675 votes
6y
@Mike D.
It is exactly that.
This benefits the company many times over vis a vis the employee.
In fact this may not even come close to fulfilling the “work from beach” aspirations of existing employees.
What it does is gives the company a lot more flex to hire new employees remotely at a much lower cost without even establishing a local office infrastructure.
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Robert C.
OP
Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 338 posts · 444 votes
6y
I don't think there's as much to worry about if employees are taking pay cuts... haha. I can relax now!
Facebook employees may face pay cut if they move to cheaper areas to work from home
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Amit M.
Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
6y
@Robert C. personally I think the recent work from home hysteria is a fallacy. Conceptually, working from home has NOTHING to due with covid 19. If it’s so awesome, why wasn’t it adapted en mass years ago? Yahoo a couple years back even rolled back WFH. It’s a trend that will have some effect yes, but it’s being way over hyped. For two main reasons: 1- I’m not sure it will really provide long term benefits to the tech firms jumping on the bandwagon now 2- I’m not sure how many employees will like it, after the forced-Covid-novelty wears off.
As for WFH effect on the Bay Area, keep in mind that when people work from home, their direct environment becomes MORE, not less important. Would you rather be home based in the Bay Area with tons of things to do nearby, good weather, lots of nature, etc. or someplace with little culture, extreme temperatures, bland immediate environment, etc., etc. There is a reason many people, who can afford to do so, aspire to live in CA and especially the Bay Area. Working from home isn’t going to radically change those aspirations.
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Robert C.
OP
Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 338 posts · 444 votes
6y
@Amit M., Hey Amit - so I'm like 90% with you. And for the most part, I'm already proceeding in this market as if the worst is over, and not much else is going to rock the boat. I think that last 10% is just my paranoia making sure I'm not caught off guard, or stick my neck out too far in the short term.
For the sake of argument, though, you could also ask how come it took so long for tech companies to take away cubicles and create open work environments. Sometimes trends just need the right timing and the right spark. Apple revolutionized our lives with touchscreen phones/tablets, but Microsoft tried and failed about a decade before.
There's also my little theory that if people get stuck in their apartments, they'll realize how crappy and old most of the housing stock is here. Whereas before, they were gone most of the day so it didn't matter as much. That could work to the advantage of apartment owners with nicer units, or it could also spill over to people wanting to get out to places where they can afford a nicer/larger place. Of course, that depends how long it takes to open things back up again.
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Amit M.
Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
6y
@Robert C. those are solid point Robert. There is definitely an element of the unknown WRT WFH. My gut is telling me though that at the end of the day, it won’t be a tipping point event. Certainly Covid 19 will leave us a changed society, but I also think there will be a push to go back to some level of previous normalcy too.
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Megan Shay
Real Estate Broker · Poulsbo, WA · Member since 2018 · 121 posts · 66 votes
6y
@Mike D. I would be happy to have those 2 drinks and converse about residential with folks in the Seattle area when we are able to get back out to the bars again. :-) I'm in Poulsbo, just west of Seattle. We already have a good number of folks who were commuting full-time or part-time before COVID hit. I think we'll definitely see an influx of buyers looking for more room to spread out and WFH if they don't have to go into the city every day. Plus, the chance of spotting orcas from the ferry is pretty cool. Unlike Seattle traffic.

Regarding traffic, even if that situation improves, I'd put money on it still sucking pretty bad.

@Robert C., in Seattle as well. They had just loosened some restrictions (like parking) late last year. There will be a lot of folks looking into a backyard office and/or more living space as we have all learned that our homes need to also be everything else (office, school, gym, brewery, etc.).

@Daniel Hyman - places like where I'm at (Kitsap County) will see that growth. It had already started. It's going to kick up, especially when all the sellers who are holding back now come online. @Matthew Irish-Jones, sounds like we may be like Buffalo?
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Amit M.
Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
6y
@Robert C. I also think that once this covid-hyped WFH dies down, well cared for and coddled tech workers are going to be like WTF? It’s hard to get all those nice free gourmet meals/lattes/health drinks from a zoom call! Not to mention all the other perks, nice office spaces, and a built in social life of like minded people.
The more I think about it, the more I think the whole ‘WFH is taking over‘ is a giant balljack!
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Aaron Taylor
Olathe, KS · Member since 2018 · 148 posts · 207 votes
6y
One of the articles I read on the Facebook thing is that it wasn't just moving to another place with your same salary, they were going to reduce your pay accordingly. To me, that is crappy. So if the guy stays remote in SF, he keeps his salary, but if he moves to Vegas he'll take a 20% hit or so (or more)?

Now there's some that would say that makes sense, but what if the opposite occurred, and a company in Vegas allowed remote work and someone moved to SF, you think they should pay them 20% more then for moving to an expensive area? I don't, for same reason I don't think they should doc you for moving to a cheaper area.

Remote work is going to be a game changer, I think the biggest thing is that it may smooth out the differences between sections of the county to some degree. So instead of SF being twice the midwest, maybe it will only be 50% more now (with SF decreasing some and the midwest increasing some). I could see Texas, Arizona, Florida, and Nevada being big winners with this.

Commercial office space is going to get crushed in my opinion longer term. It hasn't made sense for at least 15 years, but companies kept doing it because of lack of trust and fear of change. Well now they were all forced into it, and guess what, it actually works. Maybe a main headquarters makes sense, but so many of these companies have 30 to 40 dinky remote offices of 10 to 50 people for no apparent reason other than "we've always had an office and we have a policy of no remote work, so let's spend a ton of money on an office" without ever asking the question "does this actually make any financial sense"?

There's a lot of savings and employee happiness gains to be made if people/companies desire it.  I'm a software engineer, there's actually zero reason I need to be in the office on a daily basis. In fact I've been getting way more done due to less meetings and interruptions. Way happier than I've been in a while.
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Casey Powers
Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2018 · 403 posts · 474 votes
6y
So there is the fact that many people have kids and remote work is much harder with kids at home, especially small kids who aren’t in school. Some stay at home parents go back to work just to get a break. LOL
A dad documented his interruptions just with watching his kids for 3 hours. It’s pretty telling, of what (mostly female of course) parents may have to deal with.
This dad apparently did not document the time it took to refocus on the task at hand, just the actual time of interruption. Studies show that it takes extra time to remember what you were doing and get back to it after an interruption.
Work at home may not necessarily be all it’s cracked up to be.
https://m.facebook.com/story/g...
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Rob B.
Shelton, WA · Member since 2018 · 17 posts · 10 votes
6y
@Taylor L. Ya that will soon be destroyed just like commifornia
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Aaron Taylor
Olathe, KS · Member since 2018 · 148 posts · 207 votes
6y
Originally posted by @Casey Powers:
So there is the fact that many people have kids and remote work is much harder with kids at home, especially small kids who aren’t in school. Some stay at home parents go back to work just to get a break. LOL
A dad documented his interruptions just with watching his kids for 3 hours. It’s pretty telling, of what (mostly female of course) parents may have to deal with.
This dad apparently did not document the time it took to refocus on the task at hand, just the actual time of interruption. Studies show that it takes extra time to remember what you were doing and get back to it after an interruption.
Work at home may not necessarily be all it’s cracked up to be.
https://m.facebook.com/story/g...

It really depends on your situation, if you have kids under 5 without daycare it really wouldn't work that well. I don't think anyone would expect it would either. But normally those kids wouldn't be there if they're that young, they'd be at daycare if you were at work, and I don't think working from home would change that (unless your daycare was closed like it might be now). I think a lot of families where one parent stays at home while the other works, well in that situation I think most of those working parents can't wait to get back to the office, lol.
I can just give myself as an example. I started working remotely occasionally back in 2005. Technology is still the same, it hasn't really gotten any better or worse ironically. When I first had kids, working remotely would not have been ideal for sure for the 3 months of maternity leave. After that though, with daycare, it would have been fine. My wife and I both work, so working from home or office would have been pretty much identical. Neither of us had remote work though, so we've been going into the office for the past 20 years.
As I've gotten older though, the time commitments from kid activities though really start to crunch your time. I was averaging 100 miles a day driving I think when this hit, driving to work and back, then to a soccer/basketball practice and back, getting home late almost every night. Then work out, hopefully get into bed by 11 to midnight.
But if you really break down the time, work related stuff was eating like an hour to an hour and a half a day. Of course the driving (40 minutes total) but there are other things you kind of forget like getting ready for work (10 extra minutes). My work requires a mandatory 1/2 hour lunch break. At work, I honestly don't have a single thing to do during that time so I basically just waste it. At home, I can work out, it's such a nice break. But I'm wasting 30 minutes there as well when I drive in. So 80 minutes a day that I get back from working from home, that's huge when your time is so limited like mine.
I get to work remotely for a little bit longer, then I'll be back in the office permanently again. And frankly it's really going to bum me out when I have to go back because I was so much happier remote (and frankly I'm getting even more done).
It's not for everyone for sure, I can tell some of my coworkers can't wait to get back in the office. I notice it mainly in the younger group and people with small kids. They're trying to climb the corporate ladder and haven't figured out that the only thing that matters for a promotion is that your boss likes you. :)
I'm happy to see though that some corporations are finally warming up to the idea. It's been long overdue.  It's kind of ironic though, a lot of these web based businesses spend their whole existence trying to make brick and mortar obsolete but then require you to show up for work in one everyday. The irony.
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Rob B.
Shelton, WA · Member since 2018 · 17 posts · 10 votes
6y
@Megan Shay Yes it was starting to pop off in Thurston county as well last year and our market shot up 22% and is still moving up so much that you can see the greed from the listings every week. In some sense I wish this was a financial crash instead of a false pandemic, but it sure has revealed a lot of threats to our way of life and liberty.
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Casey Powers
Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2018 · 403 posts · 474 votes
6y
@Aaron Taylor
Agreed WFH with daycare etc is not the same as WFH during a shutdown. Still, I think it may not be all it’s cracked up to be for some businesses. People are social creatures and these trends are pushing us all further apart, which isn’t good for community in many ways. Introverts love WFH, extroverts probably not so much.
I too think it’s pretty ironic that some companies push for all this tech and such but then insist on making their employees work in an office. The common excuse I’ve heard is “easier to keep tabs, motivate workers.” Which to me sounds like control freak. LOL
My particular industry has been quietly moving to remote work for years, and my business model has always been remote. We use virtual assistance and technology to improve efficiency and generally have little need for offices. The main reasons some have been holding onto offices, are habit and the idea that our clients and customers expect us to have offices to “impress”. But even those with “real” offices have been moving to more and more virtual. So we’re all looking at these big companies making announcements and acting like this is some new thing like - “yall are late to the party” HAHA.
However, with the remote work comes different challenges for businesses. Keeping the “team spirit” can be harder when no one is ever actually around - harder to bond. Have to really get your processes down and documented because folks can’t just quickly pop over to a team member to ask a question. Process documentation is harder than it sounds. Have to figure out different ways to monitor and track performance etc. Have to shift the way you interview and hire to ensure you get people who will do well remotely. Etc etc.
Perhaps if offices become largely obsolete, those buildings can be repurposed to provide more and better housing options. I bet there might be some money to be made in that, longer term.
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Justin Thorpe
Member since 2020 · 437 posts · 675 votes
6y
Once Covid moves on, this conversation on remote work will normalize and people will gradually move back to the old ways of working and socializing. People who are rejoicing at the thought of moving away to cheaper or exotic locales will find out that these places are not only very boring but in due course career limiting.
Permanent remote work as a perk will take the same place as unlimited PTO. Something that looks great on paper but not one to be consumed in real life.
Does this remote work “trend” negatively impact the SF BA and benefit other cities. Likely not. The Bay stays the hotbed of tech innovation and may see even further growth. On the other hand the concept of remote work may put into jeopardy the possibility of new satellite offices that were springing up in other cities.
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Joe SplitrockPro Member
Moderator
Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
6y
A house that would cost $200K in my market would be over a million in silicon valley. There is no state income tax here. Sure our weather isn't as great year round, but if you were a software programmer making $200K a year, you could live here like a king. If weather is important, Vegas, Texas, Florida are all low tax options with nice weather.
As more businesses let employees work remote from anywhere, it will reduce housing demand and office space demand in some traditionally higher cost markets. Whether it is enough to really hurt those markets is debatable. There has already been a shift happening, so this isn't new, although it may accelerate things.
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Justin Thorpe
Member since 2020 · 437 posts · 675 votes
6y
There is an interesting article in the “Information” - a very reputed Tech focussed publication that majority of recent tech layoffs happened in cities outside of Silicon Valley & SF.
They are citing cities like Portland, Nashville etc. I am not one bit surprised.
Out of sight / out of mind is an unspoken but bitter truth or corporate life and I have seen it play nowhere more firmly than in the Tech business. When layoffs happen, the lowest profile people get impacted first.
That is one huge disadvantage of being remote is you tend to throttle career growth and risk career stability as well.
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Tom Makinen
Member since 2019 · 226 posts · 115 votes
6y
Also don't forget employer can reduce your cost of living adjustment when you move away.
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Justin Thorpe
Member since 2020 · 437 posts · 675 votes
6y
@Joe Splitrock
It’s crystal clear in my convos with the tech community that no one will be able to retain their SF salaries if they moved. A significant COL adjustment will happen. So making $200k in Boise won’t be an easy task for most techies should they choose to live there and work remotely.
Second, the average Silicon Valley worker is a bit of a “different breed”. These are often the fortune seekers, the trailblazers, the risk takers. Think about it, it’s that crowd that gives up salaries and prefers to take equity stakes in the form of stocks, RSUs, Options etc.
Fact is this crowd hates the concept of a predictable 9 to 5 culture and these folks are predominantly ambitious and career minded.
I don’t think these techies are looking to semi-retire/limit their careers in exchange for a bigger home far away from a tech hotspot. The long term cost of a bigger home will be extraordinary. Worst coming back to the bay will become harder because of the cost differential and other factors.
Of course there will be exceptions.
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James MillerPro Member
Investor · Snohomish, WA · Member since 2015 · 139 posts · 42 votes
6y
I really hope Facebook and amazon put every one remote and let Seattle city council who want to tax the crap out of "big business" in Seattle pack sand. Seattle is a dump. I really wish amazon and facebook would just write the buildings off and not pay property taxes on them and leave the doors open so while the city council is fighting to get that money all the "peaceful" people from the CHAZ can move in and destroy the building, making it worthless and then king county can take it back for taxes owed. As far as business paying people based on where they live, come on that's easy to beat. Get a cmra address in a seattle suburb use a vpn to have a seattle IP and live in Thailand like a king for 2k a month while making 200k a year. I remember there was mailing service that would let you receive mail, then they would scan all your mail and email it to. New business opportunity! Buy a condo in like Kirkland, rent it on airbnb and use it as a cmra mailing address so a few tech employees can use that as there address, scan all their mail and send it to them. No idea how this would work but maybe you could also have a server of some sort and build your own vpn so tech employees could show a Kirkland IP address. If the difference is a 100k in pay I would think someone would be willing to pay 300 a month for this service. Get like 10 people that's 3k a month plus the airbnb money.
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