New Investor Floundering Around

New Investor Floundering Around

Cleveland, OH · Member since 2019 · 49 posts · 34 votes

I am sure this is not a unique situation so I am curious to hear what others have to say about their experience and what they are doing. I live in the Cleveland market which is known to be a strong cash-flow market but has limited upside in terms of appreciation due to flat/declining population.

I spent April 2019-April 2020 learning as much as possible via BP Podcasts, books, articles, and analyzing deals. I was unable to start making offers during that time because we needed to first save more capital and second unload our primary residence (luxury condo that had the potential to turn into an albatross since other units were selling much lower than they were purchased for and we needed to sell that before moving forward in case we needed to bring cash to close). We purchased a duplex after selling the condo and are owner-occupying one unit and renting out the other.

Now that I have capital saved and have our primary home situation sorted out, I have been evaluating deals and submitting offers. In two months, I have run 20 full deal analyses (2-3/week) where I model the acquisition, estimate the rehab, analyze holding costs during the rehab, and model the cash-out refinance and proforma cash flows after rehab/refinance. In addition to that, I am filtering through 10-15 listings a week that I can immediately tell do not fit my criteria. I get the MLS digest emails first thing in the morning so that's literally the first thing I do every day.

Based on the above and since I am new to RE investing and only have a limited amount of capital at hand, my preferred strategy for investing to start out is to full/partial BRRRRs in my local market. I have enough saved to buy two SFHs for around $110k each that would cash flow $100-200/month, using 5% vacancy, 10% maintenance/repairs, 5% capex and 0% property management. So while I could do that, I want to BRRRR because if I buy two ready to rent properties, even with the cash flow generated by them, it will take me 18-24 months to save up enough to buy another one while maintaining sufficient reserves for all properties.

The issue that I am running into is one that I know is common. I can't get any offers accepted on the MLS at a price that makes sense based on how I am evaluating deals. I am looking at B class neighborhoods so I am competing with retail buyers and anything that is priced in the range to make a BRRRR deal work ends up with multiple offers in 1-2 days after listing. I have tried to compete but have lost out on all of those offers. I did get two offers accepted but once I walked the property with a contractor/home inspector, I had to walk away because the rehab was going to be too expensive to support the deal and the seller was not willing/able to negotiate the price down.

The next logical step to me is to find off market properties not on the MLS but since wholesaling is illegal in Ohio, I am hesitant to spend a bunch of money on marketing efforts since I can't wholesale any properties that I can't personally close on.

Right now, I am continuing to research my local markets to see if any of the various municipalities have properties that work but have thus far not had any luck.

My fear is that one, some or all of these things are true:

1. My deal analysis is too conservative.

2. My criteria for properties is unrealistic (B Class neighborhood where I can buy low, renovate, and appraise high enough to get 50% or more of my capital out in a cash-out refinance).

3. My local market doesn't support the strategy I am trying to execute.

4. I am being impatient and need to keep grinding away until I build momentum.

It seems like I have the following options going forward:

1. Continue to evaluate MLS deals in my local markets and hope that the market shifts in favor of buyers in the next year.

2. Change my investment criteria and/or deal analysis assumptions to make more properties work on paper.

3. Look for off market properties not on the MLS using direct marketing efforts.

4. Look outside my local market for a market where BRRRR deals are easier to find.

I feel like I am working extremely hard but have not made any progress. I know @Brandon Turner and @David Greene always talk about the bridge analogy and I don't want to start trying to build a bunch of different bridges but I also am afraid that I am trying to build a bridge to nowhere.

Do any seasoned investors have any advice to offer?

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Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
6y

Hi Andrew,  

I have about 230 units in primarily Lake County, Mentor and Painesville.  Feel free to reach out to me.  I was on  podcast 238.  Love to chat and discuss your situation. Also Josh and Brandon included me in their book, Ch 1, pages 25-26.  The book is called How to invest in Real Estate the Ultimate Beginner’s Guide to Getting Started.

Reach out to me soon after you listen to Podcast 238 and understand how I got started in the Cleveland area etc...

I am a PE teacher by day!!  My W2 income for my teaching gig is only $52,000 a year.  If I can do this, anyone can!!!

Swanny

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  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    Hi Andrew,  

    I have about 230 units in primarily Lake County, Mentor and Painesville.  Feel free to reach out to me.  I was on  podcast 238.  Love to chat and discuss your situation. Also Josh and Brandon included me in their book, Ch 1, pages 25-26.  The book is called How to invest in Real Estate the Ultimate Beginner’s Guide to Getting Started.

    Reach out to me soon after you listen to Podcast 238 and understand how I got started in the Cleveland area etc...

    I am a PE teacher by day!!  My W2 income for my teaching gig is only $52,000 a year.  If I can do this, anyone can!!!

    Swanny

  • Cleveland, OH · Member since 2019 · 49 posts · 34 votes
    6y

    Podcast downloaded, I will reach out once I've listened to it!

  • Tinton Falls, NJ · Member since 2020 · 108 posts · 85 votes
    6y

    Years ago I was doing acquisitions for an investment firm mainly in Philadelphia, PA. I'd say among the 30-40 flips I oversaw, I sourced probably about 50% from the MLS and 50% between wholesalers/other off market sources.

    I've since been doing my own investments for the last few years and have found that with the resurgence of interest in real estate investing, there is far too much competition on the MLS. This could of course differ by local markets, but that's been my experience in Philadelphia and New Jersey.

    It does seem like looking to hit BRRR numbers on properties where you'd be competing with retail buyers is unrealistic. That type of buyer would be willing to accept far less equity in their purchase.

    I'm not familiar with Ohio, but have you looked into Sheriff sales? I'm working on completing a 4 unit deal that I got from a Sheriff auction. The price I purchased it for ended up being an incredible deal. The downside there is that you have to put the deposit down at the auction hard for 10-20% depending on county in NJ. Then you have 30 days to pay the balance. Hard money lenders here will finance these though so that is what I am in now. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Orange County, CA · Member since 2016 · 207 posts · 111 votes
    6y

    Hey Andrew! Not nearly as experienced as @Michael Swan (which btw I will be listening to that podcast as well because i'm really interested in how he got 230 units, thats just amazing). But me and my team have been investing in Ohio for a few years now and to me it seems like you might be analyzing too conservatively? Just as a point of reference we were in contract on 4 properties from the MLS in early April out of about 20 offers or so we sent out? Now I do believe that the Covid situation might have scared some sellers into accepting our lower offers but we do see deals out there.

    Other couple things to point out, as rentals go we usually go for 2-4 units for the rentals and mostly just use the SFR for flips so that could also be another thing that's making our rent numbers more acceptable. As far as area we're in University heights, Shaker Heights, South Euclid, Cleveland Heights and are negotiating some properties in Maple Heights so besides maple heights I'd consider those areas the same B-ish grade you're looking for.

    Lastly, wholesaling is not illegal in Ohio. I've been seeing that a few times on bigger pockets and I'm not sure where they are getting that from or if I'm missing something? We've wholesaled a few properties just in the last few months and know other people who are doing much larger volume than we are. I usually see that sentiment from agents who want to discourage wholesalers from starting but I haven't seen/heard any legislation passing in regards to that. Would love to know if I'm wrong tho, don't want to be breaking any laws. 

    Anyway just my 2 cents! 

  • Cleveland, OH · Member since 2019 · 49 posts · 34 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Kyle Altenau:

    Years ago I was doing acquisitions for an investment firm mainly in Philadelphia, PA. I'd say among the 30-40 flips I oversaw, I sourced probably about 50% from the MLS and 50% between wholesalers/other off market sources.

    I've since been doing my own investments for the last few years and have found that with the resurgence of interest in real estate investing, there is far too much competition on the MLS. This could of course differ by local markets, but that's been my experience in Philadelphia and New Jersey.

    It does seem like looking to hit BRRR numbers on properties where you'd be competing with retail buyers is unrealistic. That type of buyer would be willing to accept far less equity in their purchase.

    I'm not familiar with Ohio, but have you looked into Sheriff sales? I'm working on completing a 4 unit deal that I got from a Sheriff auction. The price I purchased it for ended up being an incredible deal. The downside there is that you have to put the deposit down at the auction hard for 10-20% depending on county in NJ. Then you have 30 days to pay the balance. Hard money lenders here will finance these though so that is what I am in now. 

    Your message prompted me to go back and re-read the rules for Sheriff's Sales in my county and I was wrong in my thinking that I had to pay the full amount upon sale.  Turns out its between $5-10k depending on the price of the value of the property.  I will look into this further to see if that is a viable option for me.  Sounds like you would pay the deposit in cash, finance acquisition and rehab with hard money and then cash-our refi after 6 months into a long-term note?

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    Hey @Jacob Repreza,

    That goes for you too.  Reach out to me too!!

    I love this stuff!!

    Swanny


  • Cleveland, OH · Member since 2019 · 49 posts · 34 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jacob Repreza:

    Hey Andrew! Not nearly as experienced as @Michael Swan (which btw I will be listening to that podcast as well because i'm really interested in how he got 230 units, thats just amazing). But me and my team have been investing in Ohio for a few years now and to me it seems like you might be analyzing too conservatively? Just as a point of reference we were in contract on 4 properties from the MLS in early April out of about 20 offers or so we sent out? Now I do believe that the Covid situation might have scared some sellers into accepting our lower offers but we do see deals out there.

    Other couple things to point out, as rentals go we usually go for 2-4 units for the rentals and mostly just use the SFR for flips so that could also be another thing that's making our rent numbers more acceptable. As far as area we're in University heights, Shaker Heights, South Euclid, Cleveland Heights and are negotiating some properties in Maple Heights so besides maple heights I'd consider those areas the same B-ish grade you're looking for.

    Lastly, wholesaling is not illegal in Ohio. I've been seeing that a few times on bigger pockets and I'm not sure where they are getting that from or if I'm missing something? We've wholesaled a few properties just in the last few months and know other people who are doing much larger volume than we are. I usually see that sentiment from agents who want to discourage wholesalers from starting but I haven't seen/heard any legislation passing in regards to that. Would love to know if I'm wrong tho, don't want to be breaking any laws. 

    Anyway just my 2 cents! 

    Good to hear that you have been finding success on the east side in those markets. I will take a look at those and see if I am seeing more deals that make sense from the MLS. I've been looking mostly in Lakewood, Parma, Parma Heights, and West Park.


    I don't want to derail this thread with the wholesaling discussion but I've read other posts on the forums that talk about it and the clearest answer I've gotten is from this video.  I know plenty of people do wholesale in Ohio but since I am a CPA (I don't do taxes, don't ask lol), I try to stay away from any gray areas as that could affect my day job.

  • Tinton Falls, NJ · Member since 2020 · 108 posts · 85 votes
    6y

    @Andrew B. - Yes. The amount will vary depending on what county you're in. Most won't take actual cash but require certified checks. That's a little annoying because you need to get the checks before going to the auction. So I'd have a couple $1k, $5k, $20k checks etc because you don't know the exact amount you'll need. If they require $20k deposit and you only have a $25k check on you, they'll of course accept that. I'd just rather keep as much cash in my pocket as possible. 

    And you are correct about the getting hard money then refinancing. I'd speak to hard money lenders in your area and title companies as well. Every state/county can be a little different with Sheriff sales so you will want an understanding of how that works. 

  • Cleveland, OH · Member since 2019 · 49 posts · 34 votes
    6y

    Link to video I mentioned.

  • Cleveland, OH · Member since 2019 · 49 posts · 34 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Kyle Altenau:

    @Andrew B. - Yes. The amount will vary depending on what county you're in. Most won't take actual cash but require certified checks. That's a little annoying because you need to get the checks before going to the auction. So I'd have a couple $1k, $5k, $20k checks etc because you don't know the exact amount you'll need. If they require $20k deposit and you only have a $25k check on you, they'll of course accept that. I'd just rather keep as much cash in my pocket as possible. 

    And you are correct about the getting hard money then refinancing. I'd speak to hard money lenders in your area and title companies as well. Every state/county can be a little different with Sheriff sales so you will want an understanding of how that works. 

    Makes sense.  I will definitely reach out to hard money lenders in advance to make sure that they do that type of thing and will run it past the title company I've worked with.

  • Real Estate Agent · Orange County, CA · Member since 2016 · 207 posts · 111 votes
    6y

    Just realized you're not too far away in San Diego! Love heading down there for weekend trips. I will absolutely reach out once I check out the podcast! @Michael Swan

    @Andrew B. okay that makes more sense. I understand the staying away from wholesaling in that situation. We like lakewood but you are right that it's a little tougher to find deals there. We haven't looked too much in parma and those areas. Maybe check out our areas and If we get a deal in those areas i'll shoot it over to you.  

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    Be careful @Andrew B.

    The areas I invest in Lake County are extremely landlord friendly, hard working Blue Color, and not a sexy trendy area.  Although, when I compare rents I can get per unit and per unit cost, Lake County wins hands down!! Especially in my realm of investing.  The last 2 apartment complexes I have purchased pre Covid last summer of 2019 were about $33,000-$35,000 a unit and rental rates are a little better than the area you mentioned.  Three rules!! It must cash flow about 12% minimum, 1.6 or higher DSR, and the cap rate needs to be over 8%.  Also, I notice some of those buildings in the areas you speak of are really old and have old property issues.

    You need to talk to me soon!!

    Swanny



  • Cleveland, OH · Member since 2014 · 16 posts · 9 votes
    6y

    It's especially hard to find properties for the BRRRR strategy right now due to the coronavirus. Foreclosures, either on the MLS or through sheriff sales, are often the best source for discounted properties. Sheriff sales haven't occurred since March 16th in Cuyahoga County. I check the county's website at least once a week to see if they post any upcoming sales. Not as many foreclosures are appearing on the MLS due to banks and property owners being unable to evict tenants or owners because of court closures. Also, mortgage forbearance is allowing many to get by longer before needing to foreclosure. Fixer uppers that do go on the MLS get bought by owner-occupants that can pay more.

  • Cleveland, OH · Member since 2019 · 49 posts · 34 votes
    6y

    @Michael Swan

    That’s a huge thing I’m running into, these old homes all need a ton of work to get them in good shape to be a long-term investment.

    Almost finished with your podcast and I’ll send you a PM.

  • Cleveland, OH · Member since 2019 · 49 posts · 34 votes
    6y

    @Jacob Repreza

    Thanks! Are you BRRRRing properties or are you buying rent ready and holding long-term?

  • Cleveland, OH · Member since 2019 · 49 posts · 34 votes
    6y

    @Matt Thompson

    Good to hear that I’m not the only one finding it difficult. Have you bought at the Sheriffs Sale in Cuyahoga County before?

  • Cleveland, OH · Member since 2014 · 16 posts · 9 votes
    6y

    @Andrew B. Not yet. I attended one in January just to observe the process. Between January and March I planned to bid on two sheriff sale properties, but they were withdrawn by order of the court before the sale occurred. In March I placed an offer on a fixer upper that appeared on the MLS. It got 20+ offers in the first 24 hours. My no contingency offer was about 10% over ask. It ended up selling for about 18% over ask.

    There is high demand, but very little supply.

  • Cleveland, OH · Member since 2019 · 49 posts · 34 votes
    6y

    @Matt Thompson

    That’s exactly what I’m experiencing. Is this just dumb money coming in and over-paying or are we missing the boat?

  • Investor · DFW · Member since 2020 · 14 posts · 7 votes
    6y

    Andrew, my background is in antics and data science and I will tell you from 1st hand  - real world is far away from analysis... may be close. It' shoo dot have hand on data, but I believe people experience and local networking will help you more. I am in Texas and I am working with wholesalers, if it's not an option for you I believe in direct marketing. Find a community  you like, and start mailing, do not invest too much, do it by yourself, create a consistent system and do several rounds and see what happen. I would stay local.  

  • Appraiser · Clovis, CA · Member since 2014 · 16 posts · 11 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Andrew B.:

    @Matt Thompson

    That’s exactly what I’m experiencing. Is this just dumb money coming in and over-paying or are we missing the boat?

    Yes, there is dumb money, or dumb people with money, everywhere. Auctions have a way of giving people the illusion that they are getting a great deal when they may not be. The dynamic of an auction also presents an urgency that can lead someone to an emotional FOMO (high) offer. There probably are still good deals to be had at auction, but stick to your numbers and don't overpay. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Orange County, CA · Member since 2016 · 207 posts · 111 votes
    6y
    No we never buy turnkey properties. It's pretty much always with the intention of BRRR'ing or flipping. 






    Originally posted by @Andrew B.:

    @Jacob Repreza

    Thanks! Are you BRRRRing properties or are you buying rent ready and holding long-term?

  • Member since 2018 · 2 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    @Andrew B.i will help you in Jacksonville Fl.

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Michael Swan:

    Be careful @Andrew B.

    The areas I invest in Lake County are extremely landlord friendly, hard working Blue Color, and not a sexy trendy area.  Although, when I compare rents I can get per unit and per unit cost, Lake County wins hands down!! Especially in my realm of investing.  The last 2 apartment complexes I have purchased pre Covid last summer of 2019 were about $33,000-$35,000 a unit and rental rates are a little better than the area you mentioned.  Three rules!! It must cash flow about 12% minimum, 1.6 or higher DSR, and the cap rate needs to be over 8%.  Also, I notice some of those buildings in the areas you speak of are really old and have old property issues.

    You need to talk to me soon!!

    Swanny



    The #1 question I have been asked the last year and especially the last few months is how do I identify and find the good markets I do to farm, you laid out my "secret sauce" (which is no secret in my opinion) the correct relation of those 3 metrics, not just 1 but all 3. 

    Liquid gold in 1 paragraph. Now I am going to be digging up that podcast and flipping to that page in a few minutes, lol. 

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    Thank you @James Hamling,

    Feel free to reach out to me after you watch Podcast 238.  I love this stuff James.

    Swanny

  • New to Real Estate · Madison, WI · Member since 2020 · 28 posts · 21 votes
    6y

    @Andrew B. great post for us newbies, following!

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