Church For Sale Cheap - Need Ideas for Income!

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Church For Sale Cheap - Need Ideas for Income!

Tony T.
Real Estate Investor · Harrisburg, PA · Member since 2010 · 73 posts · 217 votes

There is a SPECTACULAR, massive Gothic style church for sale at an amazing discount and:

* I can probably get it for $100,000 (cash);

* It's in the city (semi inner-city) in Harrisburg PA with no parking except on-street;

* I need about $600/month profit to be happy with my investment;

* It's 16,000 square ft.;

I can't think of any great ideas to make a steady income except hope that a small church organization rents it, and I wouldn't purchase it hoping that would happen. Also weddings and such are not going to work here because there is no parking except on street and it's in the city. Converting to apartments would be cost prohibitive and apartments in this area wouldn't attract the tenants I'd want to work with.

So I'm looking for new ideas ...any ideas are welcome! Thank you.

5Reply
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Joshua D.
Investor · Columbus, MT · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
5y

@Tony T.

Well for the record I just wanna say I think it would be a poor investment for a handful of reasons.

1. Be hard to sell (unless it's rolling in income for some reason) even then it might be tough

2. It's not in an area you want to be

3. Property Taxes could be a nightmare when it comes out of non-profit status

4. No parking.

5. Rehabbing an old building like that to change use would cost twice what you paid for it.

6. Zoning might be very restrictive...

However... That's no fun looking at the logical side of things. In the heart of every entrepreneur is that thing looking for what that building could be. So here are my ideas.

1. Indoor storage... Add some walls and doors? Don't need much parking.

2. Rent to a historical society... For a musium

3. Make it one giant vacation rental... (My friend did this with a small church and it turned out awesome)

4. Split building into 4 different office spaces.

This is fun to think about!

Good luck (and don't buy it)

36Reply
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  • Elliot Shibley
    New to Real Estate · Harrisburg · Member since 2020 · 2 posts · 15 votes
    5y

    That is a spectacular opportunity and I am very familiar with that church. It is absolutely stunning. 

    Besides another church, I'd look at getting a brewery in there and making the pew area into beer hall style seating. The main issues is that for a brewery is very specific and would have to be a large enough operation.

    Similarly - this could be an incredible performance venue as many churches are designed to enhance acoustics.

    15Reply
  • Mark Fries
    Contractor · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    @Tony T.

    A) become a minister and make it your church.

    B) dont buy it

    36Reply
  • Joshua D.
    Investor · Columbus, MT · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    @Tony T.

    Well for the record I just wanna say I think it would be a poor investment for a handful of reasons.

    1. Be hard to sell (unless it's rolling in income for some reason) even then it might be tough

    2. It's not in an area you want to be

    3. Property Taxes could be a nightmare when it comes out of non-profit status

    4. No parking.

    5. Rehabbing an old building like that to change use would cost twice what you paid for it.

    6. Zoning might be very restrictive...

    However... That's no fun looking at the logical side of things. In the heart of every entrepreneur is that thing looking for what that building could be. So here are my ideas.

    1. Indoor storage... Add some walls and doors? Don't need much parking.

    2. Rent to a historical society... For a musium

    3. Make it one giant vacation rental... (My friend did this with a small church and it turned out awesome)

    4. Split building into 4 different office spaces.

    This is fun to think about!

    Good luck (and don't buy it)

    36Reply
  • Dylan D.
    Investor · Mohnton, PA · Member since 2016 · 20 posts · 13 votes
    5y

    Day care maybe

    2Reply
  • George W.
    Investor · NJ · Member since 2018 · 869 posts · 921 votes
    5y

    It's a cool looking old church but

    Big buildings, big expenses. A roof for a house is expensive let alone a roof on a 16,000 sq foot church. Old churches usually have old plumbing, electric & heating that was poorly maintained or done by volunteer members (things were patched as they needed fixing).

    Other things to consider might be if it's in a historic area and needs to please historic societies. Ex: Someone might be mad if you decide that it's not financially wise to fix a broken stained glass window. 

    Think things like fire standpipes, fire alarms, exit signs, fire extinguishers, heating, most churches have kitchens that need to meet health DPT inspections, range hoods and exhuasts. The costs to keep systems like that running can eat you alive. 

    3Reply
  • Alexander Szikla
    Real Estate Agent · New York City · Member since 2020 · 819 posts · 641 votes
    5y

    $100k seems cheap, but the amount of CapEx this will require for any change of use (if allowed by zoning) will be massive. I've worked on a church to condo conversion in CT before and it ended up costing a fortune!

    This project is not for the faint of heart. 

    4Reply
  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    5y

    Run as fast as you can! A big old building like that will cost you insane amounts of money in maintenance. Tuck pointing the stone, windows, roof, heating a drafty old building with 30 foot ceilings! Converting a building like that will cost more than building new and you have NO parking? This is not an opportunity. I wouldn't even take the building for free.

    8Reply
  • Chris Lynn
    Rental Property Investor · Memphis, TN · Member since 2019 · 36 posts · 55 votes
    5y
    Two words:  Paintball Park

    You're welcome.
    27Reply
  • J. Henriquez
    Real Estate Agent · Surf City, NC · Member since 2020 · 24 posts · 26 votes
    5y

    What about an escape room or some type of experiential business. Good luck!

    8Reply
  • Dennis Wayne
    Member since 2020 · 339 posts · 356 votes
    5y

    @Mark Fries

    Agreed

    600$ on 100k investment ? Horrible return

    3Reply
  • Matt M.
    Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    @Tony T.

    Hard pass for me. The maintenance on that building will eat you alive.

    0Reply
  • John Teachout
    Rental Property Investor · Concord, GA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Matt M.:

    @Tony T.

    Hard pass for me. The maintenance on that building will eat you alive.

    I agree with @Matt M. There is no price point that this would be a good deal. Even if it was a scrape it would likely cost a breathtaking amount to raze. It's such a neat looking building and evokes emotions but from a business standpoint just forget about it.

    1Reply
  • Chris Szepessy
    Catskill, NY · Member since 2018 · 636 posts · 668 votes
    5y

    Defintely a very cool building, but like others have said, the CapEx on that is probably going to be very expensive. Someone converted a church near me into a residence. Looks cool, but I have no idea what they spent in rehab costs on it.

    https://www.realtor.com/reales...

    1Reply
  • Greg PowersPro Member
    Real Estate Agent · Manchester, NH · Member since 2013 · 120 posts · 159 votes
    5y

    @Tony T.

    Dismantle it, sell individual “Blessed Bricks” online for $100 each, cut the pews into individual chairs and sell them to a SOHO interior designer, then sell the land to a developer, or turn it into a multi-level parking garage. Sounds like the neighborhood could use some of the latter.

    15Reply
  • Stephen DeThample
    Real Estate Agent · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2020 · 461 posts · 305 votes
    5y

    It would be an amazing night club.  Rent it out for parties, run a party bus from a parking area.

    8Reply
  • Kathryne Omaits
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 26 posts · 18 votes
    5y

    Make a trip to zoning to see the restrictions and tell them why. Check with non-profits.  Reach out to the community/city to find out if there is any need or interest on the non-profit end. Are there are any grants for historic buildings? I somehow think there are people who believe that the value of this building, architecture, and history is worth saving. Check specific sites on the internet in large cities both USA and beyond (Europe) how churches, old buildings can be saved. If you can find a need in the city, you may be able to fill it. Could it be used as a homeless warming shelter? What is the neighborhood like? Think to the future of real estate in that area. On the non-profit side what about a work training rehab for those in need (or would the neighborhood not support this?). Reach out to local schools, universities. See if a workspace rental is viable. Multi-level floors can be added. Reach out to the VERY wealthy to see if there is any interest, very often those with money will support endeavors that speak to a passion. Wholesale it but have your buyer lined up. Call some well-seasoned architects to ask who you could reach out to for ideas on how to save this building. Call an old-timer contractor to question or to take a look at the building as to what you could expect on needed maintenance (bathrooms, water, HVAC); maybe an architect could refer you to a contractor specific to this situation. Maybe you could find someone who would take this on or partner with you. This is do-able, but you would be the one to decide how much time you'd want to commit. The more you cast your net of inquiry, the better your chances. It will take a special niche and that's okay. If I was close by I would offer to work on the project research end with you. Maybe consider this will take more than just you to save. My answer, while speaking to saving the building, acknowledges you need to make money. Long term it could be a very satisfying result. It could also make a name for you in this area and more connections. There was a lot of work that went into this building. It would be sad to see it go. Good luck!

    7Reply
  • Nat C.
    Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2013 · 807 posts · 475 votes
    5y

    Well I am going to go against the grain and say that I absolutely love it. 100k for that building is simply unfathomable to me. 

    The first thing is to go to the City Zoning Department and find out what it's allowable usage actually is. We can all give you weird and wonderful ideas about the fairy-tale fun park you can build there but you may not be allowed to do any of that.

    Every City is different but I know in Miami they would never allow you to turn that into residential because each living unit must have a certain number of designated parking spaces. I would then look around and see if there is any vacant land very nearby that you can buy to be used for parking. 

    I am also wondering what, if any, heritage regulations apply to this building. Again, you may be very restricted in any renovations or improvements you want to do.

    I would then have a professional building inspection done. As others have mentioned, the MEP might be extremely dated and costly to maintain. 

    After conducting the above due diligence, I would do market research and ascertain what kind of venues are in demand there. I'd like to know more about the local demographic, as that will weigh heavily on what you do with it. 

    I've always wanted to own a church. Message me if you want a partner! 

    6Reply
  • Sofia Sharkey
    Property Manager · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2018 · 280 posts · 221 votes
    5y

    @Tony T. Event space, art gallery, or a fantastic restaurant with shops inside. For parking, is there no parking on the surrounding neighborhood?

    3Reply
  • Nicole Skorka
    Property Manager · Denver, CO · Member since 2019 · 30 posts · 13 votes
    5y

    @Tony T. The CapEx and OpEx to maintain will be high, and most prospective tenants will request a large TI allowance. $100k sounds great but do your DD and think about finding a wealthy business partner or capital investment company who is well connected and sees the benefit of preservation and community development. Also remember, you need to have funds while it sits vacant, which in commercial can be a very long time.

    Given the area you described, it might a good location for a non-profit incubator. Think coworking but for social enterprises and non-profits only. We have a couple incubators like this in Denver that do well and given their mission dont have to worry as much about competition like WeWork. This isn't a turn key opportunity but could be very rewarding and help make a name for yourself.

    3Reply
  • Tony T.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Harrisburg, PA · Member since 2010 · 73 posts · 217 votes
    5y

    Wow! What a great response by everyone; thank you!!!

    @elliot

    1Reply
  • Travis Frenchak
    Investor · Butler, PA · Member since 2014 · 130 posts · 114 votes
    5y

    I don’t see it as a good investment unless you personally have a use for it.

    0Reply
  • Tony T.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Harrisburg, PA · Member since 2010 · 73 posts · 217 votes
    5y

    @Elliot Shibley - I don't think I'd want to rely on finding a brewery to have a decent return. Also, A performance venue is not going to work with no parking, I believe.

    @Mark Fries - The funny thing is: I WAS a minister for a short time. I have full credentials, but it's not going to happen, l - Great Post! The negatives you list are things I am aware of but the taxes would not be a problem once I get it reassessed. The suggestions you made are exactly what I'm looking for! Indoor storage is something I never thought of.

    @Dylan D. - Day Care COULD work if it's zoned ...thanks!

    @George W. - The roof is the only thing that worries me with such a building. The heating would be paid by the tenant, not me. It IS on the registry of historic places, so that is a problem, probably. But I am fully proficient with plumbing/electrical/HVAC/roofing myself, so expenses in the trades do not apply to me except for materials. The tenant would car for the kitchen, not me, FYI.

    @Alexander Szikla - I would never want to convert a church building to condos; the money would be insane and would cost way more than building from scratch. I'm looking for ideas to leave the building alone but find a tenant to use it. Thank you.

    @Joe Splitrock

    2Reply
  • Steve Vaughan
    Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    5y

    This might be a great purpose project for a retired HNW architect type investor or philanthropist. 

    It's worth saving and may entail a finder's fee. Find that entity or person👍

    1Reply
  • Tony T.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Harrisburg, PA · Member since 2010 · 73 posts · 217 votes
    5y


    @Joshua D. - Great Post! The negatives you list are things I am aware of but the taxes would not be a problem once I get it reassessed. The suggestions you made are exactly what I'm looking for! Indoor storage is something I never thought of.

    @Joe Splitrock - I am proficient in all the trades, even pointing masonry. Nothing scares me, and the tenant would be paying for the heating of a drfty building, not me. I'm not looking to "convert" the building to anything, I just need ideas to find a tenant that might want to rent it as is.

    @J. Henriquez - I don't want to run a business, just ideas on how to find a tenant, sorry if I wasn't clear.

    @Dennis Wayne - $7200/yr on a $100k investment isn't all that bad - 7%. I can expect a 7-8% rate on residential rentals. In my city, almost all listings for $100-$150k sell in one day; ONE DAY. I need to find somethig to get a return on my $100k I have because with inflation, Im losing it FAST, the governement is relentless causing inflation. I'm betting my $100k cash is worth $80k from last year, prices are skyrocketing in R/E here in Harrisburg, PA. I woulsn't even mind a 5% returrn just to protect my money.

    @Matt M. - Im not afraid of maintenance since I know HVAC/electrical/plumbing/masonry/etc. AND I have all the time in the world as I am retired.

    @John Teachout - see Matt M response.

    @Chris Szepessy - Im not looking to convert anything, just looking for a tenant idea to get around $800/month rent.

    @Stephen DeThample - I'm not looking to RUN a business, just ideas for a tenant to rent the place as-is.

    1Reply
  • Matt M.
    Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    @Tony T.

    There is a reason these diocese sell these churches so cheap. An investor friend of mine has been working on buying one for a while. Amazing building, but the church sold off the parking lot separately. Has a brand new $15k elevator, new roof, new commercial kitchen, etc etc. amazing stained glass. I believe it’s like 10k sq feet, maybe more. But no parking! 
    I think in Carbon or Schuylkill County, Pa. 

    $20,000.
    everyone he knows says stay away.  

    2Reply
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