Pittsburgh Sheriff sale - Please explain this part i'm stuck on.

Pittsburgh Sheriff sale - Please explain this part i'm stuck on.

Charles Coaston

Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 84 posts · 11 votes

I'll be doing my first bidding soon but I want to under stand this fully so I know what I'm looking. Let's say I'm looking at the sheriff sale listings and I see something I'm interested in.

Ex.

2. Encore Property Management, LLCGD-16-006714—$93,369.21

Justin L. McCall, Esq.
McGrath McCall, P.C.

In the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, County of Allegheny, Borough of Mt. Oliver: Having thereon erected a commercial space and dwelling house known as 741 Brownsville Road, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15210. Deed Book Volume 13449, Page 121, Block and Lot Number 33-L-12. Being part of Lot No. 3 in Block No. 2 in S.J. MacFarren's Plan called Giffin Place.

So...I go to my Pennsylvania, Allegheny County - Department of court records for Docket reports..

Docket Report - If you can't open the link, I have a pic below.

The amount listed in the sheriff listings is different from the dispute amount, why?

What would the starting bid start off at?

Technically, would the amount displayed on the sheriff listing be combined with the Amount disputed?

Can someone explain to me what I should be looking for if a property is free and clear on this particular site?

Is there anything else on the website that I should be looking for?

I also know as a rule of thumb to check out the property before hand going to the sheriff sale and also run a title search before hand.

Is there anything else you guys recommend?

Thanks for all the help.

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Buy & Hold Owner · Redlands, CA · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes

10y

Got to read the reports from the CURRENT date backwards to see what is outstanding.

The latest entry 2016-09-16 shows Satisfaction of Woodland Hills School District. This voids All previous entries from the school district.

This would have been more fun if there were multiple liens from several sources. You pair up the Satisfactions with the Lien filings and then examine to see if there's still a lien w/o a Satisfaction - - that becomes your target.

See this reply in the discussion

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Patrick LiskaPro Member
Investor · Verona, NJ · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 832 votes
10y
That's a Tax lien on the property - they did not pay the school tax.
0 Reply
Steve Babiak
Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
10y
Read this link:
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/LI/US/PDF/192...
In certain "first class" and "second class" PA municipalities, these tax sales conducted as a sheriff sale are normally "free and clear" unless the property owner can show cause as to why the property should not be sold "free and clear".
In PA, mortgage foreclosures conducted as sheriff sale are never "free and clear".
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Chris K.
Attorney · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y
@Charles Coaston
It looks like the property owner recently satisfied the judgment. If so, the sheriff will most likely remove the property from the sale.
In my experience as a lawyer representing lenders, its very hard for an investor find a deal on these sales. Note that the amount owing on the property is few thousand dollars. If you are a property owner and the property is worth something, would you really allow a school district to take away your property for few thousand dollars? Likewise, if there is a mortgage on the property, would the mortgagee be willing to lose it's mortgage for few thousand dollars?
So as a practical matter, the school district bring these actions to collect money from the owner or a lender. I do sometimes see sales where the school district failed to give proper notice to a lender. Because of that defective notice, the buyer bought the property subject to the mortgage and basically had to surrender it to the lender through a deed in lieu. Not an attractive option for most investors.
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Steve Babiak
Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
10y
Originally posted by @Chris K.:

@Charles Coaston
It looks like the property owner recently satisfied the judgment. If so, the sheriff will most likely remove the property from the sale.
In my experience as a lawyer representing lenders, its very hard for an investor find a deal on these sales. Note that the amount owing on the property is few thousand dollars. If you are a property owner and the property is worth something, would you really allow a school district to take away your property for few thousand dollars? Likewise, if there is a mortgage on the property, would the mortgagee be willing to lose it's mortgage for few thousand dollars?
So as a practical matter, the school district bring these actions to collect money from the owner or a lender. I do sometimes see sales where the school district failed to give proper notice to a lender. Because of that defective notice, the buyer bought the property subject to the mortgage and basically had to surrender it to the lender through a deed in lieu. Not an attractive option for most investors.
Chris,
Every now and then, somebody who was escrowing taxes with a mortgage company has the tax bills go directly to the mortgage company while still paying on the mortgage, and ends up with the mortgage paid off. And then the tax bills start coming to the owner, rather than the mortgage company. Owners see multiple tax bills (school, county, local municipality) coming in the same tax year and don't realize they have to pay ALL of those bills in a single tax year, and think some are duplicates or get confused and think they have paid on them. So some of those bills go unpaid, and the owners do not cover them before the sheriff sale sometimes - it does happen, but it is rare. I have bought one this way, and then when other buyers at sheriff sale saw what I pulled off ... well they started looking for those too. I've seen it happen like three times in the past six years or so.
The other point to make is that the tax sales conducted via sheriff sale are only by default "free and clear" in the PA municipalities that are categorized as being of the "first class" and "second class"; in other municipalities, the tax sales conducted via sheriff sale are purchased subject to liens and encumbrances of record (unless a court order extinguishing liens is issued, but first the property had to be exposed with liens remaining in place).
0 Reply
Brian Swarat
Investor · Nazareth , PA · Member since 2016 · 3 posts · 0 votes
10y
Steve,
Where can you find out if the municipality is classified as first or second?
Thanks!
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Charles Coaston
OP
Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 84 posts · 11 votes
10y
@Brian Swarat what do you mean by that?
0 Reply
Steve Babiak
Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
10y
Originally posted by @Brian Swarat:

Steve,
Where can you find out if the municipality is classified as first or second?
Thanks!
Philadelphia = first
Pittsburgh = second
(And not because of the outcome from the last football game played by the NFL teams from those two cities ;) )
0 Reply
Brian Swarat
Investor · Nazareth , PA · Member since 2016 · 3 posts · 0 votes
10y
Ha, good one, thanks for the help!
0 Reply
Steve Babiak
Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
10y
@Brian Swarat - here is a link that explains:
http://www.pacourts.us/news-and-statistics/researc...
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Brian Swarat
Investor · Nazareth , PA · Member since 2016 · 3 posts · 0 votes
10y
@Steve Babiak - perfect. Thanks again.
0 Reply
Charles Coaston
OP
Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 84 posts · 11 votes
10y
For all my PA investors.....Is there any other sites that would be use besides these to look up liens specifically? I know I can pay someone to do a title search but I'm all about learning myself. I have learned a great deal just from these sites alone. Please share.
https://pa_allegheny.uslandrecords.com
https://dcr.alleghenycounty.us
http://www2.county.allegheny.pa.us/
0 Reply
Charles Coaston
OP
Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 84 posts · 11 votes
10y
I see from past discussions these two very knowledgeable guys responded to some post. @Joe Calloway and @Ian Hoover can you chime in?
0 Reply
Steve Babiak
Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
10y
@Charles Coaston- how about this one, not for liens but for other info that might be of use:
http://www2.alleghenycounty.us/RealEstate/Search.a...
0 Reply
Charles Coaston
OP
Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 84 posts · 11 votes
10y
@Steve Babiak thanks but i already have that info as you can see from my previous post with the link I have.
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Charles Coaston
OP
Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 84 posts · 11 votes
10y
I feel like this sheriff Sale thing is a well kept secret. Every time I study I learn more. The list from the Pittsburgh Legal Journal is out of date, I had to go by the master list. I drilled the Sheriff office with questions and come to find out the properties I that I did some research on didn't even complete the 3 Y's on the Master bid form. I'm going to keep pushing!
0 Reply
Steve Babiak
Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
10y
Originally posted by @Charles Coaston:

I feel like this sheriff Sale thing is a well kept secret. Every time I study I learn more. The list from the Pittsburgh Legal Journal is out of date, I had to go by the master list. I drilled the Sheriff office with questions and come to find out the properties I that I did some research on didn't even complete the 3 Y's on the Master bid form. I'm going to keep pushing!
Well, I presume the list from the legal journal gets printed, so it is probably up to date at press time - but after that ...
The properties that will actually be put up for auction will be a small percentage of the properties that are initially listed as eligible for a particular sheriff sale. Properties are constantly being removed from the sale list for various reasons - property gets sold before sheriff sale, bankruptcy, postponement as allowed by law, payment arrangement is agreed to, and court order is issued are just some of the more common reasons properties get removed from auction. So the list is dynamic and changes literally up until the sheriff sale gets underway. But there's nothing secret about any of that since it has already been posted here on BP lots of times before.
Not sure what "3 Y's" means - must be some local terminology.
1 Reply
Charles Coaston
OP
Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 84 posts · 11 votes
10y
@Steve Babiak thanks now I understand. Will they let you know before the bidding process what the mortgage balance is owed?
What I meant by the 3 Y's.
You see where Svs, 3129 and OK are checked? That means this property will for sure be at the next sale. If all Y's are not in these areas the property will not be on auction on the scheduled date.
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Steve Babiak
Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
10y
Ok, those specific items should also show up in the court docket (at least they do where I am located). The debt or judgment amount should be part of the public record and I believe the sheriff is obligated to publish that - so I expect you would at least see that in the legal journal. Of course, that does not mean the bidding will start at that amount - the lender could be willing to take a loss (starting bid lower), or the lender could be unwilling to set a bid that does not include everything that has gone unpaid (like taxes and municipal services) with a higher starting bid.
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Charles Coaston
OP
Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 84 posts · 11 votes
10y
@Steve Babiak I see. Thanks! You have been great help.
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Chris K.
Attorney · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y
@Steve Babiak
Good points! You are absolutely correct about the distinction depending on city level. When I saw the original post, I just saw Pittsburgh and wrote my post based on that.
@Charles Coaston
What do you mean when you say "to look up liens specifically"? Do you want to look at the mortgage document? If so, just go to the Allegheny County Prothonotary, go to the search function, enter the appropriate docket number, and then go find the complaint. Foreclosure counsel will typically attach all the loan documents to the complaint as exhibits.
Here's the link:
https://dcr.alleghenycounty.us/SelectCaseID.asp?filename=Welcome.htm&NoLoginRequired=yes
In terms of the balance, go find the "Praecipe for Writ of Execution" in the same docket. That will give you a ball park figure of the amount due to the lender under the mortgage. On top of those costs, the sheriff's office will have its own fees and there could be some taxes due as well.
In terms of those Ys, I assume: (1) "SVS" means service of the writ by the sheriff; and (2) "3129" refers to the Rule 3129.1 Affidavit. Not sure what "OK" is.
1 Reply
Charles Coaston
OP
Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 84 posts · 11 votes
10y
Quick question guys...I see a property i'm interested in at the sheriff sale. On Zillow it says a unpaid balance on zillow for 9k. When I get a title search done will they tell me the exact balance owed on the property?
0 Reply
Jeff B.
Buy & Hold Owner · Redlands, CA · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
10y
Got to read the reports from the CURRENT date backwards to see what is outstanding.
The latest entry 2016-09-16 shows Satisfaction of Woodland Hills School District. This voids All previous entries from the school district.
This would have been more fun if there were multiple liens from several sources. You pair up the Satisfactions with the Lien filings and then examine to see if there's still a lien w/o a Satisfaction - - that becomes your target.
2 Reply
Charles Coaston
OP
Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 84 posts · 11 votes
10y
@Jeff B. I actually just might understand what you are saying. I'm also looking in the land of records to look at all the mortgages.
0 Reply
Steve Babiak
Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
10y
Originally posted by @Charles Coaston:

Quick question guys...I see a property i'm interested in at the sheriff sale. On Zillow it says a unpaid balance on zillow for 9k. When I get a title search done will they tell me the exact balance owed on the property?
Quick answer is "NO".
Zillow gets public information; so that could be the published debt amount or judgment amount, or they could be extrapolating that from the original loan amount and the time over which the loan was paid.
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Chris Nocera
Investor · Carlsbad, CA · Member since 2019 · 22 posts · 1 vote
5y
@Charles Coaston I found this thread from years ago as I am interested in purchasing a property at sheriff sale. Can we touch base on what you have learned? Using your sources, I've determined that there is a tax lien on the property (reason for sheriff sale), but I'm having trouble determining if their is an outstanding mortgage.
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