How much to bid at auction? Also IRS liens?

How much to bid at auction? Also IRS liens?

San Antonio, TX · Member since 2017 · 16 posts · 6 votes

I have a property I am interested in bidding at auction and need help figuring out a max bid. this will be my first auction purchase. I have some experience working for my dad as he has around 30-40 cheap rentals, but he hasn't made a purchase since 2009. Markets change, and what was accurate in 2009 isn't today. I researched the deeds of trust and know the guy losing the property paid $99k in 2004. Zillow says it is worth $139k, tax rolls have it at $103k. From looking up deads of trust in the area borrowed amounts all over the map in last couple years, anywhere from $125k to $260k for similarly sized houses (obviously quality may be different). My best guess would be to that this house could sell around $179k in good condition. What would be a good way to determine a max bid for this potential flip? It is a  1500 sq ft 3/1 that will need central A/C added and possibly convert some space to make it a 3/2 in order to get a good retail price. House looks straight from the outside, but no idea anything else on the inside obviously.

I tried approaching the owner to purchase the house pre trustee sale as this is not his homestead, but he didn't even open his door (told me not interested through the door) and was completely closed to even speaking to me about the house. 

Also I know the owner has like $200k in IRS liens...what kind of research do I need to do about that, or does that disqualify the property.

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
9y

this one you may want to let go to the auction... once it goes through the foreclosure process the IRS lien sunsets automatically in 120 days.. and they NEVER redeem.. well there is no absolute but in all my years doing this they have never redeemed one on me.. I love IRS liens at auction scares most of the newbies from bidding.. but you do need to have cash because you can't refi until this is gone.

but in the very unlickly event IRS redeems they owe all the money you spent to buy it plus statatory interest and any money you spent protecting home from further damage.. but they would not have to reimburse you if you did a full blown reno on it during the redemtion period

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  • San Antonio, TX · Member since 2017 · 16 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    @Jay Hinrichs how should I decide how much to bid? It's hard for me to wrap my head around estimating hypothetical repairs. In order for this house to sell for $179k it will need to be nice. The house is older, so there are so many things that could be wrong.

    What I have so far for hypothetical repairs so far is:

    $7k install HVAC

    $6k add a second bathroom out of existing space.

    $5k Refinish/repair hardwood floors.

    $2k interior paint

    $2k exterior paint/minor siding repairs

    $5k remodel kitchen

    $2k appliances with installation

    $3k plumbing repairs/replace old pipes as needed

    $2k electrical work/updates box

    $1k fix windows as needed

    $8k termite remediation and repairs for damage.

    $1k landscaping

    Total possible: $44k

    I don't know if it would be possible to buy the house if I assume this worst case scenario, so how do you decide on how much to budget for repairs, especially on an older home. The neighborhood is going through some gentrification, which is why I am interested in this older home/ think the amount owed/acceptable to the bank could be within range. If I go with my worst case repairs and use 70% rule I can only bid around $81k, which I don't know if that would have a realistic shot of being top bidder. 

  • Contractor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2015 · 379 posts · 740 votes
    9y

    @Sam Epstein, with respect, you're probably overthinking this one. It sounds like you've locked in on this one property and are researching the hell out of it. But odds are, it won't even get auctioned. I buy nearly every month at the trustee auction in Tarrant County (Fort Worth & suburbs). About 60% of the houses on the list don't end up getting auctioned. (January, for example, 290 homes on the list pre-auction, 102 actually got auctioned).

    Buying at auction is a tricky thing. I try to go with around 15 properties in mind that I want to compete for. Of those, 8-10 will get pulled, another 2-4 will sell to the creditor because their bid is higher than anyone would realistically pay, and there might be 2-4 that I can actually bid on. Hopefully, I win one of those, but some people get crazy at auction and homes - that need repair and that you can't get inside to see - will sell for 80% ARV.

    It can be a great way to buy property, but you can't get too locked in on one propery.

    Good luck!

  • San Antonio, TX · Member since 2017 · 16 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    @Michael Hayworth Thanks for the advise. Yeah, I realize all of the things you said are accurate, I guess I can get stuck overthinking. In general though, how do you decide on your make bid, since the auction can be very competitive as you say? I guess I realize there is a high probability I won't get this house, but going over specifics as an example.

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Sam Epstein:

    @Michael Hayworth Thanks for the advise. Yeah, I realize all of the things you said are accurate, I guess I can get stuck overthinking. In general though, how do you decide on your make bid, since the auction can be very competitive as you say? I guess I realize there is a high probability I won't get this house, but going over specifics as an example.

    Lesson for today: learn to completely IGNORE that "the auction can be very competitive"!

    What others are bidding should have ZERO effect on your bids! The answer to your question: "how do you decide on your make bid?" needs to be worked out in the cold light of your numbers analysis, BEFORE the auction. Then, THAT'S your answer!

    If you don't know how to analyze a deal based on your investment goals vs property condition/location, then you're NOT ready to start.

    ie. Whether it's by auction, or whether there's Liens attached, are both extraneous factors which should have NO bearing on your Bids/Offers! All the best...

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Sam Epstein, a footnote to today's lesson:- Once the Bids exceed YOUR number - move on!

    The moment you bid MORE than "your number" - you've FAILED this lesson! Cheers...

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    @Sam Epstein   @Michael Hayworth  is an accurate depiction of how trustee or sherrif sales work.. you simply either know what your doing or you don't  if you don't like you.. then most likely this is far to risky.. and like Mike said 95% chance this all a bunch of work for nothing as the property

    1.   gets pulled for some unknown reason

    2. a pre foreclosure buyer redeems it for the owner

    3. owner files BK

    4. bank messed up and postpones

    5. your over bid by 3p

    6. Banks credit bid ( because of PMI ) far exceeds its as is value

    if you want to buy foreclosres you need to follow Mikes road map he laid out that's how its done.

    if you want to do a normal escrow were you put up EM then do your due diligence dureing your inspection period then you can get into the tules like your trying to do

  • San Antonio, TX · Member since 2017 · 16 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    @Michael Hayworth @Jay Hinrichs any rules of thumb for what you pay at auction. I get that you can't really break out expenses since you can't see inside, but what kind of rules of thumb do you go by, or are possible to achieve when buying from foreclosure sales? 50% arv on older homes needing more renovations, maybe 60% on cleaner looking/newer house? Jay, I don't see how paying retail outside foreclosure sale is a low risk strategy, since the market is fairly tight where I live at the moment. I am very familiar with car auctions and have bought well over 1000 used vehicles that way, and bid on thousands. Those auctions are very different in that there is way more volume and if I want to buy 5 trucks at wholesale prices under $10k next week it can be easily accomplished since there will probably be at least a couple thousand vehicles sold at dealer auctions in San Antonio in a week's time. For the entire month there may only be 500-1000 houses on the foreclosure list in Bexar county with 1/2 getting canceled and 1/2+ of remaining  reverting to the lender, with less than 1/4 left for investors. Are there any deals being found by you guys currently?  I had some unexpected health problems otherwise I'd still be in the car business. Just trying to learn something new, any advice is much appreciated.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    @Sam Epstein  car auctions and RE auctions could not be more different

    at the auto auction.. the bank owns the asset and WILL sell It that day. they already have title.

    Sherrifs sale are quit different .. the bank does not have title and is trying to get it or sell it.

    Bottom line think of the auto auction were you have to look at 1000 cars.. nail it down to 100.. and then ready to pounce on the 10 that actually go to third parties..

  • San Antonio, TX · Member since 2017 · 16 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    I showed up with a list of about 10 properties today, including this one, and left without buying anything. Several (including this one) I was able to verify got pulled, several went to high, and several I have no idea if they were pulled or if I just missed them, since it is very disorganized at the foreclosure auction. 

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