bought my first foreclosure yesterday, despite BP advice ;c}

bought my first foreclosure yesterday, despite BP advice ;c}

Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member
Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 694 votes

Well, first off I just reached one of my 2010 goals - to purchase a foreclosure on the court house steps!

I've been going to all auctions with meat and watching the big boys bump knuckles. You know, the stuff in the burbs that retails around 150 - 350k. Not wanting to put that much skin in the game straight off, and also wanting to stick to my buy hold rent SFRs in a fast appreciating hot RE market, I purchased a 2100 sq ft SFH on a very large city lot (66 x 150). The house was vacant, so I poked around quite a bit, though I couldn't gain entry. The walls look good, from what I could tell (recently painted) and the windows are replacement vinyl, the roof looks good. Doing my due dil turned up this: buyer paid 55k in 95 (neighborhood was not what it is today - ie drugs & crime) - owner occupied, and put some money into it. Judgement was for 96k, but they opened at 84 and went to 86,6. Being a newb and all, I wasn't sure if I should bid as it was just me there, oh, and a younger lass who wants to buy the house, but doesn't have capital to play the game. by her look, I'm sure she would qualify for FHA / conventional though (yup, got her number for possible flip). So I can the attorney for the bank and say, "hey, I'm sitting here on the steps and there are no other bidders... I'm tempted to pass, can I make another offer after." I got some run around, but basically they said "yes, you can put it in writing and send it over, but it will take time, and there are no promises." Anyway, knowing the street, and the neighborhood, I didn't want some realtor putting a number in the banks head (higher than the 86k I'm sure) so I opted to take my certified funds and buy the sucker. Now, I know that because my friends the big boys were not there, that this isn't the best deal that can be had on a regular basis. They're looking for 50c on the dollar and less, holding for short times, and reselling for market rate. This was about 60-70c on the dollar, depending on who you ask. You ask me and I'll say that it may be that now, but in 5 years, I'm going to be really happy. So why all this post? Well basically, I think it really comes down to what you know, and your gut. My SFRs are all in this area so I can package them up nice when it is time to exit. I have 2 others on this street. This has a garage at the very back of the large lot, that has a dead end street the buts up to it, AND it has a gate to my lot!! Now I have a place to store stuff where I won't get in my Tenant's way! I've got ample space to build if I want. Plus I checked with the city prior, and I can legally convert this SFR into a duplex.
Anyway, living and learning, and loving BP - just wanted to let you all know I'm very excited to have hit a 2010 goal already! Can't wait to check a few more boxes off my list.
Comps in this area tell me that I could flip it for 120 without doing anything, and in about 1 week on the market.

Feel free to comment / advise etc.

Cheers!
Mark

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Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
16y

Mark,

Where is the BP thread that makes you say "despite BP advice"? Please post link if you can.

I personally favor those where nobody else is bidding (those are cheaper!), but I am aware of somebody else posting here to not bid unless you see others bidding - HOGWASH! Just be certain of your own due diligence before opening your mouth to bid.

I think you need to buy lower at foreclosure auctions, but if the numbers work for you...

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Real Estate Investor · Ephrata, PA · Member since 2010 · 58 posts · 2 votes
    16y

    I saw the pics, the house looks really good! Congrats!

  • Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 694 votes
    16y

    sorry for the delay yall. The electricity is finally getting turned on tomorrow, and I'm back from Vancouver (awesome city). Anyway, these are some pictures of the inside. I"ll be sure to only drop sweat equity (i'm sure it will limited by my frisbee golf playing) until the IRS tax lien is gone.

    Thanks for the support, once again!
    Mark
    http://gallery.me.com/zeusmac#100203

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    16y

    So Mark, what kind of repair estimate do you have for this place?

    What is the time that you have to wait until for that IRS lien? Did you confirm with attorney that the IRS still has redemption rights?

  • Landlord · Seattle, WA · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    16y

    I've never bought at a foreclosure auction, but I'm learning a lot from your experience and the comments. Look forward to hearing more about how it is going.

  • Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 694 votes
    16y

    Hey Steve,
    Yes, IRS has 120 days redemption rights. I've also spoke with a seasoned investor. They do about 100+ foreclosures a year in my area, and he said out of all with IRS issues, only 2 have actually been taken back, and they had a lot of equity in them. His advice was to proceed but leave any major ticket items until after the 120 days.

    As far as the rehab goes, I'm probably going to do what I normally do as I've got the system down pretty smooth. I'm estimating 7-8K for: paint / supplies / 2 replacement windows / update lighting / replace kitchen floor (broken tile) / Missing plumbing / restore wood floors. Most labor will be me, I do hire a friend to help a bit. The structure / roof / walls / trim / electric etc all look good. The garage needs some help, but I'm not including it with the rent, so it can wait.

    I would say I can spend the majority of the 120 days doing prep work and it will only make the house look worse (less likely to be taken back?).

    I'm also finishing up 2 other properties, and going on a 10 day vaykay to Eleuthera Bahamas at the end of May...

    so much to do, so little time!
    Now, if I could just stop playing disc golf in this lovely spring weather...

    Cheers!
    Mark

    PS - My average "get it ready to rent" on acquired properties is about 5K, so this isn't too far off. I end up getting top rent too.

    I'm still contemplating turning it to a R2 or building another unit on the large property. I'm working with zoning now on the logistics.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    16y

    Mark,

    That sounds like a reasonable plan.

    I agree with the advice you have on proceeding with repairs while IRS redemption is still in effect - avoid doing the big ticket stuff that adds extra value (no point to GIVE them reason to redeem).

    Now, as I understand things, that IRS right of redemption begins when the sheriiff's deed is actually recorded, and not the date of the sheriff sale (I could be wrong about that - better to ask your attorney on that); this is why in my prior post I asked you what the time was - I should have been more specific. Did your sheriff's deed get recorded yet? I know it can take a few months ...

  • Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 694 votes
    16y

    Ah, I see. I did ask my attorney specifically when we start counting the days from. According to him it begins with the day I closed the property.

    I'm guessing that the "sheriff sale" is the day I placed my bid and gave a down deposit on the court house steps?

    And the sheriff's deed is recorded when I close?
    Sorry, I'm not familiar with the sheriff terminology yet :D

    Thanks!
    Mark

  • Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 694 votes
    16y

    DOH!
    Speak of the Devil and....

    Just got a call from the IRS, they're in the process of deciding if they want to take back the property. The guy asked me if I would let him in the home. What do you think?

    The inside looks OK, but there is copper missing in the basement, and the carpets are stained. Everything else he can probably see from the exterior. Would it help my case by letting him in (no copper, dirty etc) or will it hurt my case (in decent shape)

    UPDATE - just spoke with attorney, he says let them in, the missing copper / stained carpets should devalue the house further... I'll keep you all posted!!

    AHHHH

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    16y

    Mark,

    I have bought at sheriff sale in state of PA. Here is sequence that it goes through as best as I can remember off the top of my head.

    1. bid at sheriff sale and win the bid.
    2. put in the required deposit money with the sheriff's dept on same day as the bidding.
    3. pay the balance due to the sheriff's dept before the deadline to make that payment.
    4. wait for what they call the "deed poll" to be issued; this lists the lien amounts to be paid off from the proceeds that you paid in. This is sort of like a title search.
    5. wait the time for the possible appeals of the "deed poll" by any of the creditors who think they should be getting paid something else.
    6. those creditors get paid according to the deed poll. If somebody needs to be paid and there weren't enough dollars already collected to cover some amount due, you might be expected to bring some money.
    7. go to sheriff's dept to fill out the PA Dept of Revenue forms for the Real Estate Transfer Taxes to be paid with the deed; those taxes are almost always already included in the amounts you previously paid.
    9. somebody in the Prothonotary dept signs off on the sheriff's deed.
    10. recording of the deed is handled by the sheriiff's dept. Recording fees are almost always already included in amounts paid earlier.
    11. Sheriff's deed is ready - it can be picked up or mailed if I'm not mistaken.

    A couple of months can easily pass for all of that to happen.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    16y

    The sooner you let the IRS in, the sooner you will know whether they intend to take the property by redemption (by paying whatever you already paid). Leave it as messed as it was; don't mow the grass or trim anything.

  • Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 694 votes
    16y

    Thanks so much Steve, I'll keep you posted for sure. I may have had my guy cut the grass... hopefully he was too busy! It was looking pretty ragged ;-) I'm heading there now to make it look as HORRIBLE as possible. I may hide some buckets of excrement around the inside just to make it STINK (I'm kidding.... or AM I mweahhhh)

    Appointment tomorrow at 10:30 AM.
    :-/

    If I'm repainting any way, should I make the walls look worse? maybe spray some graffiti?

    Any other tips for making this place LOOK like a dump but not causing extra work?

    Should I take out the water heater?
    Have my dog drop a deuce on the floor?

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    16y

    You already have enough info here visible to ALL of the world to see ...

    I suggest just leaving things alone as they are. Nosy neighbors might see something going on too.

  • Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 694 votes
    16y

    Ha ha, yes yes, public forum... double DOH

    but isn't it my property? What if I happen to like graffiti?
    (i jest).

    Good Call.
    Thanks

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    16y

    Mark,

    Any progress with this one? With respect to the timeline I listed earlier, where do you stand?

  • Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 694 votes
    16y

    Hey Steve, Thanks for checking back! Double checked with my attorney, and the 120 days started from the closing day. Looks like I'm stuck until the end of August on this one (120 days). I'm pretty confident that it won't get taken back given the boarded up windows, and severely over grown yard. Plus the current state of foreclosures / REOs / listings, and the amount of Federal taxes owed.

    It is a shame to have so much cash tied up for so long... live and learn!

    I'm heading to the court steps tomorrow morning and giving it another shot! This time I did my due diligence and won't walk away with an IRS tax lien!!!

    Given the price and location, I'm expecting some competition from the regulars. Let's see what happens!

    Oh, I did notice a small "Welfare Lien" from back in 1995 (3.5k). Does that get wiped clean at auction? I'm waiting to hear back from my attorney...

    thanks again!!
    Mark

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    16y

    "Welfare Liens" in PA are typically owed to the PA Dept of Revenue. If they were not included on the "deed poll" list of what is being paid out from the sale proceeds, then the money would still be owed.

    Did you check if the judgment that goes with that "welfare lien" had ever been satisfied? If it was satisfied, then nothing owed anymore on it, but it will still sometimes appear on searches.

  • Real Estate Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2010 · 18 posts · 27 votes
    16y

    Mark,
    Keep us posted on how this plays out. I've been following along with you, and I think I speak for others on here that we're pulling for you! Kudos for being frank about your missteps throughout this process. For a lot of us newbs this is golden information! I've spent the last few months reading through literally hundreds of threads on BP, and there's nothing I hate more than when one just dies without a conclusion. Yours is great so far...keep it up!

  • Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 694 votes
    16y

    Thanks Craig!
    I've been using it for storage only. The grass is LONG and there are still 2 boarded up windows.... I'm counting down the days before I can get in there and get dirty. About 60 more to go!!

    No word from the IRS, but like he said "no news is good news"

  • Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 694 votes
    16y

    A big thanks to all those that helped me through my first foreclosure!!

    Today is my Birthday, and it is ALSO the 121st day since the Deed was filed!

    Weird Coincidence!

    IRS Right of Redemption = NO LONGER

    I'll post some pictures of the progress if anyone is interested. We're pretty stoaked about the property. Even with the distressed look we were going for, people have been randomly stopping and trying to buy / rent it.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    16y

    Despite BP advice???? LOL, looks like I know when to keep my mouth shut.....

    Good luck with your deal!

  • Real Estate Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    16y

    Happy birthday, Mark. And congratulations on getting past the IRS right of redemption.

    Have you got a feel for when the IRS exercises its right and when it does not? Is it based purely on the amount owed vs equity in the property after paying off the investor?

    Do you have any information about the investor "settling" the IRS lien by paying cash? For example, suppose you buy a property for far less than its market value whereby it is profitable for you to pay the IRS, say, 60% of the taxes owed to them instead of risking the redeption or waiting 120 days. Would that work or would it merely alert them to the idea of exercising their right of redemption?

  • Real Estate Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2008 · 48 posts · 3 votes
    16y

    Good Job Mark......

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Vikram C.:
    ...
    Have you got a feel for when the IRS exercises its right and when it does not? Is it based purely on the amount owed vs equity in the property after paying off the investor?

    Do you have any information about the investor "settling" the IRS lien by paying cash? For example, suppose you buy a property for far less than its market value whereby it is profitable for you to pay the IRS, say, 60% of the taxes owed to them instead of risking the redeption or waiting 120 days. Would that work or would it merely alert them to the idea of exercising their right of redemption?


    IRS just wants to get paid. Remember, this is all about getting them to release the lien, not to pay the debt in full...

    So, from what I have been told (have not experienced this myself), the equity remaining is one consideration. Settling is supposed to also be possible; I know somebody who paid most of the debt amount owed on IRS lien in order to get the lien released. Sometimes you just don't want to draw their attention, so that the redemption period just lapses; the redemption period of 120 days starts with public recording (usually, that would be the new deed).

    Best advice is to leave the property unimproved over the redemption period.
  • Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 694 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Steve Babiak:
    Originally posted by Vikram C.:
    ...
    Have you got a feel for when the IRS exercises its right and when it does not? Is it based purely on the amount owed vs equity in the property after paying off the investor?

    Do you have any information about the investor "settling" the IRS lien by paying cash? For example, suppose you buy a property for far less than its market value whereby it is profitable for you to pay the IRS, say, 60% of the taxes owed to them instead of risking the redeption or waiting 120 days. Would that work or would it merely alert them to the idea of exercising their right of redemption?


    IRS just wants to get paid. Remember, this is all about getting them to release the lien, not to pay the debt in full...

    So, from what I have been told (have not experienced this myself), the equity remaining is one consideration. Settling is supposed to also be possible; I know somebody who paid most of the debt amount owed on IRS lien in order to get the lien released. Sometimes you just don't want to draw their attention, so that the redemption period just lapses; the redemption period of 120 days starts with public recording (usually, that would be the new deed).

    Best advice is to leave the property unimproved over the redemption period.


    I had a really long conversation with the IRS guy shortly after the deed was filed. He contacted me and asked if I would meet at the property and if I would give him access to the inside though I was not obligated to. I spoke with my attorney and we decided there would be no reason NOT to give the IRS access because we felt we could justify the price as being at market value in its current condition.

    I had a very long conversation with the IRS man regarding out comes of similar situations.

    He was very upfront about the IRS giving me first option, even if they did locate a potential buyer.

    He also said many times it would be settled for a fixed amount that was agreed upon between the deed holder and the IRS without finding a buyer. In this situation it is obvious that there is enough equity to cover the lien position. Knowing the lien amount and associated payoff costs I guess it is fairly easy to get to a number that works for everyone involved when their is enough meat on the bone. He specifically said he heard of settlements being as low as $50. He also dropped a $500 reference (and I got the feeling he was hinting to me, but I'm no where near positive).

    I followed up by sending him some comps of properties that I've bought in the area that justified our purchase price. Of course while in the house I pointed out the missing copper and other issues :D

    I personally believe that I was targeted because I had the deed filed under a LLC rather than a person. Seeing the LLC they probably figured there was meat they could take a bite of. I guess I did a good job convincing them it was a chewed up bone!

  • Real Estate Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    16y

    Thanks for the responses, Steve and Mark. The reason I ask is because I sometimes encounter this exact situation with my bids at auction. From your responses, it appears as if the IRS right of redemption starts when the deed is recorded. Since some trustees can take 3-4 weeks to send me the deed, it effectively means that my rehab is potentially delayed for 150 days instead of just 120 days.

    I would normally be willing to pay the IRS some amount in order to avoid the delay. But my concern, as Steve pointed out, is that if I contact the IRS with a view towards a settlement, it might alert them to the idea that the property has substantial equity in it. They might therefore decide to exercise their right of redemption whereas they may have ignored it had I not contacted them.

    But from Mark's conversation with the IRS guy, it seems like:

    1. The IRS does look at these properties if the buyer is an entity, so my idea that they may somehow not notice my property is not realistic.

    2. The IRS does not actually pay the owner and take the property. Instead, they try to sell the property to an end buyer and give the owner a right of first refusal. This is good to know because many of these properties will be hard to sell, especially if my crew can get started with the rehab and leave everything half-finished.

    3. The IRS is often willing to settle the right for a small amount.

    Mark, please correct me if I misunderstood any part of your post. Also, can you give us an idea about how long it takes the IRS to come check out the property, work out a settlement, etc? As a government bureaucracy, I would think that it may take a couple of months even to get to a settlement.

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