Handling seller saying "There is no lead paint"

Multi-Family and Apartment Investing
8yFollow

Handling seller saying "There is no lead paint"

Scott P.
Westborough, MA · Member since 2012 · 38 posts · 11 votes

I am looking to purchase my first multifamily, and 8-unit building built in 1920. This is in Massachusetts.

I asked about lead paint, and the response was that the unit was rehabbed in the 1980s and the seller thinks he has paperwork from then showing that the lead paint was gone. A Massachusetts search shows no lead paint inspections. The seller later stated specifically "There is no lead paint." From what I understand, the chances that there was never lead paint in the building is almost zero, and that even after extensive work there is almost always some lead paint left.

To me, this seems very different than saying "I don't know if there is lead paint" (which seems to be the way things normally work, at least in Massachusetts where lead paint laws are strict). By saying there is none, the assumption (to me) is that I shouldn't need to budget for lead paint when coming up with my offer.

I made an offer, got a counter offer, and said that I would accept the counter offer if I could get a lead paint inspection done (I didn't know then that the law lets me unless I waive the right).

So if a lead paint inspection shows that there is lead paint, should I get quotes for abatement and try to get the seller to cover the whole cost? At that point, he could likely refuse, but then he would be stuck finding another buyer, who he will have to disclose the lead paint to.

2Reply
43 views

Most Popular Reply

Calvin Lipscomb
Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2016 · 316 posts · 130 votes
8y
Originally posted by @Scott P.:

I am looking to purchase my first multifamily, and 8-unit building built in 1920. This is in Massachusetts.

I asked about lead paint, and the response was that the unit was rehabbed in the 1980s and the seller thinks he has paperwork from then showing that the lead paint was gone. A Massachusetts search shows no lead paint inspections. The seller later stated specifically "There is no lead paint." From what I understand, the chances that there was never lead paint in the building is almost zero, and that even after extensive work there is almost always some lead paint left.

To me, this seems very different than saying "I don't know if there is lead paint" (which seems to be the way things normally work, at least in Massachusetts where lead paint laws are strict). By saying there is none, the assumption (to me) is that I shouldn't need to budget for lead paint when coming up with my offer.

I made an offer, got a counter offer, and said that I would accept the counter offer if I could get a lead paint inspection done (I didn't know then that the law lets me unless I waive the right).

So if a lead paint inspection shows that there is lead paint, should I get quotes for abatement and try to get the seller to cover the whole cost? At that point, he could likely refuse, but then he would be stuck finding another buyer, who he will have to disclose the lead paint to.

 Before you even conduct the test I would have a discussion with the seller.  A straight forward question; "Are you willing to negotiate if lead is present?"  That lets you know where you stand.  His answer should be an immediate yes for a number of reasons.  If he says no then that would raise questions for me.

4Reply
See this reply in the discussion

10 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Calvin Lipscomb
    Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2016 · 316 posts · 130 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Scott P.:

    I am looking to purchase my first multifamily, and 8-unit building built in 1920. This is in Massachusetts.

    I asked about lead paint, and the response was that the unit was rehabbed in the 1980s and the seller thinks he has paperwork from then showing that the lead paint was gone. A Massachusetts search shows no lead paint inspections. The seller later stated specifically "There is no lead paint." From what I understand, the chances that there was never lead paint in the building is almost zero, and that even after extensive work there is almost always some lead paint left.

    To me, this seems very different than saying "I don't know if there is lead paint" (which seems to be the way things normally work, at least in Massachusetts where lead paint laws are strict). By saying there is none, the assumption (to me) is that I shouldn't need to budget for lead paint when coming up with my offer.

    I made an offer, got a counter offer, and said that I would accept the counter offer if I could get a lead paint inspection done (I didn't know then that the law lets me unless I waive the right).

    So if a lead paint inspection shows that there is lead paint, should I get quotes for abatement and try to get the seller to cover the whole cost? At that point, he could likely refuse, but then he would be stuck finding another buyer, who he will have to disclose the lead paint to.

     Before you even conduct the test I would have a discussion with the seller.  A straight forward question; "Are you willing to negotiate if lead is present?"  That lets you know where you stand.  His answer should be an immediate yes for a number of reasons.  If he says no then that would raise questions for me.

    4Reply
  • Scott P.
    OP
    Westborough, MA · Member since 2012 · 38 posts · 11 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Calvin Lipscomb:
    Originally posted by @Scott P.:

    I am looking to purchase my first multifamily, and 8-unit building built in 1920. This is in Massachusetts.

    I asked about lead paint, and the response was that the unit was rehabbed in the 1980s and the seller thinks he has paperwork from then showing that the lead paint was gone. A Massachusetts search shows no lead paint inspections. The seller later stated specifically "There is no lead paint." From what I understand, the chances that there was never lead paint in the building is almost zero, and that even after extensive work there is almost always some lead paint left.

    To me, this seems very different than saying "I don't know if there is lead paint" (which seems to be the way things normally work, at least in Massachusetts where lead paint laws are strict). By saying there is none, the assumption (to me) is that I shouldn't need to budget for lead paint when coming up with my offer.

    I made an offer, got a counter offer, and said that I would accept the counter offer if I could get a lead paint inspection done (I didn't know then that the law lets me unless I waive the right).

    So if a lead paint inspection shows that there is lead paint, should I get quotes for abatement and try to get the seller to cover the whole cost? At that point, he could likely refuse, but then he would be stuck finding another buyer, who he will have to disclose the lead paint to.

     Before you even conduct the test I would have a discussion with the seller.  A straight forward question; "Are you willing to negotiate if lead is present?"  That lets you know where you stand.  His answer should be an immediate yes for a number of reasons.  If he says no then that would raise questions for me.

    That sounds perfect.

    I'm starting to worry about the hassle of spending time/money with the P&S, inspections, etc. only to find that there is lead paint and the deal doesn't go through. But your solution likely avoids all that. Thank you.

    1Reply
  • Aaron K.
    Specialist · Riverside, CA · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    Unless you are planning major rehab you probably wouldn't need to worry about abatement anyway as the lead paint would be covered up by many layers of non lead paint.  From what you have said about the seller I doubt they would be willing to pay for the abatement, it is expensive and unless rehab is taking place not 100% necessary.

    1Reply
  • DJ Richmond
    Real Estate Agent · Quincy, MA · Member since 2015 · 144 posts · 65 votes
    8y
    What is the floor plan of the 8 units? Are they 1, 2, or 3 bedroom units? If they are 1 bedroom units, it likely wouldn’t be worth having removed. I would do exactly what was previously mentioned - have a conversation with the seller to ensure he will cover costs of lead paint abatement if it is found. If not, why spend the time and money to test for it? You would now have to remedy it yourself or disclose to all potential tenants that lead paint exists. My house is from 1926 and I have no lead paint forms saying it exists or doesn’t. Even though it’s been painted and remodeled in past 40 years, I’d be surprised if lead paint wasn’t found on property, especially all trim work - door frames, window sills, etc.
    0Reply
  • Robert Loiselle
    Investor · Medford, MA · Member since 2014 · 41 posts · 38 votes
    8y

    @Scott P. Congrats on diving into multifamily investing.  It's a wild ride!  I'm currently doing an apprenticeship to become a lead paint inspector in MA and have a provisional license with the state.  I have a bit of experience in this area.  I also own rentals and have been through deleading as a property owner.  

    Please disregard what Aaron said...it's just not true that if lead paint is covered with layers of other paint...it doesn't need to be abated.  That can be true for some surfaces like a wall or ceiling, but for items like stair treads, handrails, windows (for example), that is simply not the case.  Be careful with advice from folks that don't live or invest in MA in regards to lead paint...the laws here are a lot more strict and different from elsewhere in the country.  

    I agree with @Calvin Lipscomb.  Talk with the seller and see if he'd be willing to pay for abatement if lead paint is found.  If he's confident there's no lead, then he might be ok with an inspection.  Typically homeowners like to maintain the "unknown" lead status.  

    To be clear, the only way you can say that there is NO lead paint in the house, is if it's been tested by a licensed lead paint inspector.  All of the records of lead paint inspections are stored in a database maintained by the state of MA.  See the link below.   

    https://eohhs.ehs.state.ma.us/leadsafehomes/defaul...

    If the property has been tested before, the records will show up there.  Otherwise, the seller simply cannot know if all the lead has been removed.  And with houses that old in this area, it's very rare that you don't find any lead paint.  To be clear, you can have lead paint in properties and not have to abate it.   It mainly has to be removed from surfaces that children can reach or surfaces that generate lead dust (most common cause of poisoning).  You also can't have flaking/peeling lead paint.  There's more rules than that, but it's a misnomer that a property once abated is lead free.  

    Sorry for the info dump, but feel free to reach out with other questions.  Happy to help.  I'm working with a great lead inspector on my apprenticeship that I could recommend if the current owner is OK with moving forward with the inspection.  Good luck! 

    3Reply
  • Mike McCarthy
    Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y
    Ask for the paperwork that shows the house is lead free like he says. Put it in as part of the contract or a contract addendum that says it needs to be provided within 5 days or the contract is terminated. (Or something similar) Let him know you’re happy to do your own lead testing, but you understand the MA lead laws and feel the need for abatement if it comes back positive. Don’t spend the time and money if the seller is just leading you on.
    0Reply
  • Charlie MacPherson
    China, ME · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y

    @Robert Loiselle Thank you for such a thorough response.  

    I have seen people here on BP who live in other areas of the country that are genuinely trying to help, offer some truly horrid advice.  This post in one example and there was another a month or two ago from a Canadian contributor on Mass. Fair Housing.

    Massachusetts has especially strict laws on these things and taking advice from those who don't know our laws can really get you hurt.

    It's worth noting that a seller can say no to allowing you to do any inspection he doesn't want - except lead paint.  State law mandates that he allows it and it's worth the investment.

    2Reply
  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y

    That strategy sounds like a reasonable plan and get the lead inspection before other inspections. To get an idea upfront idea though about possible lead sources do you have more modern wood or vinyl windows? If you don't there is certainly lead but read MA lead laws on remediation to get an idea of what it would take to get it in compliance.  Windows and friction surfaces may be the biggest issue.  Also what is the exterior,  wood?  that is where you see a lot of lead use.  Interior walls may have had wallpaper for a long time so they may/may not have been painted pre-1970s.  Good luck.

    0Reply
  • Thomas Hickey
    Real Estate Investor · Peabody, MA · Member since 2013 · 304 posts · 91 votes
    8y
    Honestly they sell lead test strips at Home Depot. Ask if you can do an informal inspection and it won't be on the record, so you know what you're working with. Your deal has a 100% chance of mysteriously falling apart otherwise, he will never pay to abate in this hot market and I doubt he'd want a Scarlett letter on the building by allowing a formal inspection.
    1Reply
  • Scott P.
    OP
    Westborough, MA · Member since 2012 · 38 posts · 11 votes
    8y

    Thank you all for your help.

    To update, I didn't end up asking the seller. We signed a P&S, I did a lead inspection on Tuesday, and the apartments are surprisingly lead-free, but common areas have some lead (perhaps $5K or less to fix).

    It turns out the lead paint isn't the big issue; there were major misrepresentations (e.g. things I was told the NNN lease would pay, but does not, and rents on 3 units showing up $100 lower than what was claimed originally), that end up causing the NOI to go down close to $7,000, and something in the ballpark of $100K of deferred maintenance (on a $700K building). And the seller's broker is pooh-poohing it and seems to think I should accept it because of the potential of the building. Yikes.

    0Reply
Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.
Log InJoin for Free