Rental Property Investor · Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2014 · 313 posts · 326 votes
6y
There is a formula on the city website for how they calculate water sewer and trash. Last year for our 4-unit it was:
Water & Trash: $360 quarterly Sewer: $150/month
For insurance, figure 0.5-1% of the purchase price.
For taxes figure 1.25-1.50% of the purchase price, but this will vary depending on the neighborhood/zip code. The city is hard up for money so they really extort the hell out of anyone with an asset. I've heard crazy tax numbers from people in Benton Park West and other higher end areas. Our taxes have jumped as much as 10-11% in a year. in 63109 and that's not a particularly hot area. Take whatever last year's # was and tack on 10-15% and figure it'll go up at least 2-5%/year and probably more.
Landscaping our PM charges $30/trip which is twice/month in the spring/summer.
Definitely get a pest INSPECTION up front, we have had horrible issues with bed bugs and roaches at our 2nd property which we did not expect at all going in. Our lease charges pest control back to tenants which is nice for the bottom line, but tenants are generally not thrilled as you can imagine. Our PM now charges a quarterly fee to do furnace filters, pest control, and a number of other annual maintenance items. Figure like $100/unit per quarter.
Big picture, we have 3 years of numbers on our first 4-unit property and combined it's been:
(% of gross rents)
Vacancy 1% (very fortunate with inherited tenants, our 2nd building, across the street, was 16% year 1) Management 11% Taxes 9% Insurance 4% Fixed expenses (water, sewer, trash) 12% Variable expenses 21%
58% total. This includes a couple of unit makereadies, some water/mold damage to one unit, replace both sewer laterals, and a good bit of maintenance on our boilers, so IMO 50-55% expenses is probably more typical.
These older buildings are not cheap to operate, especially when maintenance has been deferred/neglected by a prior owner. Ask me how I know :)
Investor · Ormond Beach, FL · Member since 2019 · 78 posts · 73 votes
6y
Chris...assuming your projected NOI is fairly close at +/- $17,000, then you are purchasing property at a +/- 7.6% cap rate. This isn't all that bad. But its your cost of debt that is dragging this deal down.
At the loan terms described and assuming the NOI is close, your cash-on-cash calculation of 5.0% is correct. One of the factors hurting your CoC return is the amortization period at 20 Yrs. For me, the amortization schedule is more important than the interest rate. It has a more meaningful impact on the cost of debt. I would try to get your amortization up to 25 years if at all possible - maybe in exchange for a slightly higher rate? (your rate is a little high too, but I understand if you are just starting out).
Personally, I would keep looking unless you can your cost of debt down on this deal. A 5.0% CoC is not really worth the risk (hassle) of a 4-plex.
Best of Luck and keep pushing forward...you are on the right track!
@Craig A. Schumacher Thanks Craig! Yes, that’s what I’m negotiating now. I’ve told the lender that 20 years doesn’t work for me and that I wanted a 5% interest rate max. We’ll see what they say. I agree, it’s not worth the hassle at the current deal.
@Erik Hatch So the seller is asking for $235k. I told my realtor what she thought about asking $220K. She said it was too low and to offer $225k. The property would be sold as-is and the seller is not providing any disclosures really. I do know that 3 of the 4 units have been "remodeled." Not sure exactly what that means but from talking to the listing agent, it sounded like the basics (floors, paint, cosmetics). Obviously would like to offer as least as possible.
Rental Property Investor · USA · Member since 2018 · 325 posts · 222 votes
6y
So what if she thinks $220 is too low? It’s your offer and you could always come up to $225. Since it’s as is, were you allowed to inspect before your offer?
Boca Raton, FL · Member since 2014 · 23 posts · 10 votes
6y
Offer the number that makes it work for you, and stick to it. If it's not worth it just move on to the next.
From personal experience...Before I landed my first "deal" I only made about 8 offers, and pulled the trigger on #9 by coming up to the seller's asking price.
I'm not going to say that I shouldn't have done the deal...I learned a lot..but the cash outlay, sweat equity put in & opportunity cost vs. the return was not worth it.
Stick to your numbers. Get an investor friendly realtor who's a good negotiator.
Hey @Erik Hatch since I am buying out of state I have not been able to inspect. I have not offered anything yet either though. My realtor hasn't been able to get inside either, due to the tenants. She says it looks well maintained from the exterior however. She said I would have 10 days after an accepted offer to inspect and do the deal or not. Should I reach out to a new realtor? Mind you, since I am not from the area my relationships in St. Louis are basically none.
@John Andrews Property has been on market 28 days. As far as I know, one offer has been accepted but funding fell thru for the buyer but to answer you question, no it has not been under contract previously. I have never worked with this agent before.
Specialist · Houston, TX · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
6y
@Chris Nerio Congrats on the deal. I think the problem is that if you ask too many different people if it makes sense. You will get more answers then you wish and maybe end up even more confused then When you started. I think a good rule of thumb is to first start with your goal of what you want this property to achieve for you. Meaning what is the goal? is it a cashflow play, appreciation, Value play where you increase the NOI and then sell it? If you can answer these questions then it will help you determine if this is or is not a good deal. Base it on your goals and end destination and then you can see if the strategy works or makes sense to get you to the goal.
Create some rules and then some golden rules that are "Non-Negotiables" When buying a deal to get you to a specific goal as part of that specific strategy.
5 different people can look at this deal and if they all have different goals then they will all have a different answers and they will all be both right and wrong at the same time depending on What your goal is.
I know that may not be the answer you wanted but it is how I would address
Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2017 · 72 posts · 21 votes
6y
Is this lisiting on Lafayette by chance?
Also in you numbers make sure you increase your expenses for new tax rate at selling price. Property tax will go up on sale. Also market stable is a but slow on rentals. Just sat through 2 units at "market rent" being on market for a lot longer than planned.
Thanks @Steve Rozenberg, I appreciate your input! Yes, I am trying to stick to my strategy which is a play for cashflow right no which is why this deal doesn't work out at the current loan details. This has been a 2 year process to get to this point and this is all new to me. Thankful for a site like this where people can help me think.
@Zach Stillman This is great info Zach! I'm assuming I can go on the county or city gov page and get the rates? Will it increase at the exact sale price value or assessed value for the county or city?
Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2017 · 72 posts · 21 votes
6y
No problem.
Google st. Louis city assessor and do a property search. Plug in address and you can see current tax rates. Formula is (market value x 19% )÷100. Then multply that number by this years tax rate ($8.42).
Rental Property Investor · Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2014 · 313 posts · 326 votes
6y
Where is this property? Zip code and/or cross streets? $225k for rents at $560/mo. isn't going to work in most areas of South City. Have your looked up the current property taxes, sewer, water, trash bills? Those rents may be at or above market in some areas or slightly below, but you're talking about up to $575-600 unless the units are really pristine. For context our first property has performed pretty well and we bought 3 years ago at $180k and rents of $550. Rents are up to $575-600, but we're just clearly our $100/unit/month cash flow goal because costs, especially taxes have gone way up. Don't want to say it's not a deal, but this sounds like a richly valued property IMO. Need way more info though and you need to get into the property and walk the neighborhood. Poll as many local investors as you can if you're OOS. St. Louis is not an easy market
Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 60 posts · 29 votes
6y
@Chris Nerio Have you explored conventional loans? Currently, I'm getting 4.625% with 30 yr amort. All my investments are four family properties in the area. That will help the numbers.
@Edward Burke Hey! Yes I did explore it but they want 25% down and I wanted to purchase thru an LLC with 20%. I plan on reaching out to other banks today. Maybe a lender will allow me to only need 20% on conventional.
Investor · Mission Viejo, CA · Member since 2016 · 78 posts · 36 votes
6y
@Chris Nerio @Account Closed Just to follow-up on Craig's response of a CoC of 5%, 100 divided by 5 is 20. That means you will get your money back in 20 years. That is too long. Every investor should ask himself/herself, how soon will I get my money back? Usually 3 years is already a long time, IMO.