Investor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2015 · 118 posts · 16 votes
I am renovating my primary home that I plan to live in for 10+ year and probably much longer than that. We have had multiple contractors and others suggest maybe not getting permits due to the fact that the house is in an area that is somewhat isolated and often overlooked when it comes to building permit regulation. The house itself sits over 100 feet off the road which is not very well traveled.
I am not adding any square footage or removing any structural beams as far as I know at this point, but we are renovating nearly everything.
From my understanding below are the pros and cons. Is any of this inaccurate or unlikely or am I missing anything? Do you have any experience with this? What would you do?
Please give me your real world thoughts.
Pros To Getting Them:
1) Ensures contractor is following codes for potential better quality and safety
2) It could be easier to refinance and sell
Cons to Getting Them:
1) My taxes will likely go up
2) It will add a lot of time to our project
3) It will add a lot of cost to our project
4) It will take up a lot of my time because I would be pulling them
Pros to Not Getting Them:
1) The renovation could be completed much quicker and it will save me a lot of time
2) I will save money on taxes and permitting fees (including some permit requirements which might not actually make much of a difference)
Cons to Not Getting Them:
1) It could prevent a sale in the future - Is this even accurate? I haven't looked into permits for work done in houses that I have bought (maybe was a mistake), but looking for the real world answer here not the "by the book" answer
2) It could affect a refinance - Is this even true?
3) I could be fined. - This isn't clear on what the fines would be online. Any details on that?
4) The house could be less safe
5) My homeowners insurance deny a claim if they tie a fire or other issue to not having building permits. - Is this likely?
Contractor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2015 · 379 posts · 740 votes
8y
I own a contracting firm with 12 in-house crews working 50 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, as well as a plumbing company. I deal with more permits and inspections in a month than most people will deal with in a lifetime. The idea that permits, licenses, and inspections make work better is simply laughable. What they mainly are is an industry protection scheme promoted originally by union plumbers and electricians and now continued by all the licensed trades to keep outsides from cutting into their profits.
First, most building inspectors are just about useless. They are typically guys who failed in the trades and decided they would go become an inspector. Can't tell you how many inspectors I know who "used to have" a plumbing business, electrical business, or whatever. I've never met an inspector - and I know dozens of them - that I'd trust to frame a new build, plumb a bathroom remodel, or wire a room addition. If they were any good, they'd make way more doing the work than inspecting the work.
Second, there's no way they actually understand the entirety of the IRC, so they all develop their little picky things that they will call out on every visit. Most of these little picky things have nothing to do with overall quality. So contractors learn, "Oh, this is in Bill's zone. Be sure to add extra expanding foam in all the corners, but be sure to miss one so he can have something to point out to you. Then ask him about his fishing boat." Doesn't add a thing to the overall quality of your job. It's just part of playing along with the legal game.
Sure, they can recognize really terrible work and may save someone from that. But with REI groups, Angie's List, HomeAdvisor and all the other referral sources out there, the only reason you'd be hiring a terrible contractor is if you picked the absolutely lowest bidder without regard to references....don't do that.
As for licensed contractors, I have seen truly abysmal work performed by licensed contractors - not just tradesmen or journeyman, but guys with master's licenses in plumbing or electrical. They're good at passing a test. Maybe not so good at installing plumbing so it doesn't leak. Texas, where I live, doesn't have licensing for general contractors. We've had a huge construction boom here for years, even when the rest of the country was in the dumps. If we've had a rash of houses falling down due to lack of GC licensing, I've missed it. Meanwhile, some states feel they need to license painters. Your tax dollars at work, protecting homeowners from a bad paint job. (Not really, the licensed guys still often do crappy work.)
People say permits don't cost that much. That's simply not true. The cost of permits is not just what the city charges you. It's that you're then required to use a licensed electrician to do simple crap like move a vanity light, or install a can light. And that licensed electrician either reports to a master electrician, or uses an RME (Responsible Master Electrician) to pull the electrical permit, and that guy wants to get paid. So the light that your handyman could relocate for $50 now becomes 3-4x that.
Want to install a new tub and plumb it? Any decent handyman can do that work in a day, probably at $50/hour or so. But pull a permit and now you have to have a licensed plumber, who's got a master plumber upline to pull plumbing permits, do the work at $150/hour. Except you still need your handyman, because God knows a plumber isn't going to actually install and caulk the surround on the tub.
Permits kinda make sense for really large jobs, where contractors might be tempted to cut corners. They definitely don't make sense on the average bathroom or kitchen remodel, or other typical cosmetic work.
Now all that said, would I trust a $40K job to a handyman? Probably not. But different people use that term in different ways. In our area, it means "a guy who does mediocre work in a bunch of different areas." But I hear in other areas, people actually use it with pride. So maybe your guy is one of those.
All that said, if you've had multiple reputable contractors - emphasis on reputable, make sure they're that - tell you they'd skip a permit on your job in that particular area, with that set of circumstances, I'd be a lot more likely to listen to them than a bunch of internet strangers (me included).
@Steve K. - Are the permits only around $1,200 for a $75-90k renovation or am I misunderstanding?
You can figure this out on your own, go to the website of the agency (city or county) who you should be pulling a permit from. Grab the form, most have a calculation on the bottom. Another way would be to call them "anonymously" and ask about permit fees.
@John Woodrich - I am told permits could take at least 12 weeks here in Boulder County. Heavily regulated area with insanely hot market.
You won't know until you talk to them yourself. An addition would take a lot longer than what you have planned so if you call them they can give you the timeline and let you know what permits should be pulled.
Dayton, NJ · Member since 2017 · 17 posts · 16 votes
8y
Adding my vote to the 'get the permit' side here. As a Realtor, I would want to see that permits were pulled for any major renovations being done for a property I was either selling or showing to a buyer, where it is required.
I am working with a handymen with great references (not licensed) to get the work done. It will be around $40,000 in labor and $40-50,000 in materials.
Let me make sure I'm understanding this correctly. You're using a handyman for a $80K-$90K project??? I wouldn't normally think of a handyman, no matter how great his references are, for a project of that magnitude. Is he bonded? Does he have workman's comp? Does he have someone working for him? What if that person gets hurt on the job? What if he doesn't pay is workers or material supplier? What if he doesn't finish the job? There's a lot of what if's to risk that kind of money with someone that isn't a licensed contractor.
Investor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2015 · 118 posts · 16 votes
8y
@Mike D'Arrigo Yes, a handyman that has done plumbing, electrical work, and all of the renovation items in other jobs. I am taking the risk to save a lot of money and get the full project done before moving in rather than having to wait a few more years.
Turn key provider · San Jose, CA · Member since 2010 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
8y
@Joseph M. To protect you from them not being able to finish the job, getting mechanic liens placed on your property, lawsuits if someone is injured on the job. There's a whole myriad of things that could happen. This is an $80K job. It's not something simple like installing a ceiling fan like a handyman does. In most states, it's illegal to do a project over a certain dollar amount ($500 in CA) without a contractors licence. So if this guy is willing to break the law and do an $80K job, what else is he willing to do? Why doesn't he have a contractors license?
Investor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2015 · 118 posts · 16 votes
8y
@Mike D'Arrigo He is considering getting a contractors license because he knows he will make more money. He claims to just really enjoy what he does and doesn't want to have to jump through hoops to get projects done and that it would take some of the appeal of what he does out of it.
I know there is risk here, but I will likely take the risk to save about 50% on the project.
@Mike D'Arrigo Yes, a handyman that has done plumbing, electrical work, and all of the renovation items in other jobs. I am taking the risk to save a lot of money and get the full project done before moving in rather than having to wait a few more years.
This changes things then. Your handyman cannot pull a plumbing permit. He cannot pull a electrical permit. And he likely isn't a licensed contractor so he isn't able to pull a building permit. You should weigh the safety of your family by using such a person, most handymen I have encountered know how to get things working, not necessarily how to do them correctly.
The other MAJOR downfall on using a handyman on this project is that it will take a LOT longer. A handyman is likely going to do all the work himself instead of use subs. Although his rate is cheaper, it will take him twice as long as it would take 2 handymen.... and probably a whole lot longer than if you hired a contractor who hired out the subs.... I assume you aren't going to be living there so this added time is also added mortgage payments, property taxes, etc...
@Mike D'Arrigo He is considering getting a contractors license because he knows he will make more money.
A contractor's license doesn't guarantee more money, it lets people know you are actually licensed to perform the work, most licenses require insurance, etc. I am guessing he also isn't insured or bonded either. So if he takes you money and runs, gets hurt and can't complete it, you are in trouble.
Contractor · Swarthmore, PA · Member since 2016 · 41 posts · 31 votes
8y
Are you a gambling man? Sounds like a lot of risk using a unlicensed handyman. Assuming since he doesn’t have a license that he doesn’t have insurance either. A project that large means he’s needs some help and doesn’t have workman’s comp on his helpers so if someone’s gets hurt, it’s all on you. If they caught you doing the work, they will double the permit fee’s if they don’t charge a large fine. If the house burns down from his electrical work then your insurance will not pay out. If it’s not obvious from what every one else said. PLEASE GET A PERMIT. I can almost guarantee with this size of a project, you trying to save a few bucks will cost you double in the end. The long way is the short cut and the short cut is the long way.
Davenport, IA · Member since 2018 · 5 posts · 2 votes
8y
It depends on what your upgrading
Needs permits:
Windows, exterior doors, (only if your replacing the jamb) add-ons, decks, anything structural, electrical (if your moving or adding new wire) plumbing, siding, and roofs. Those are some of the main things needing permits.
Doesn't need permits:
Mostly cosmetics such as, interior & exterior painting, interior doors, trim, floors, replacing plugs light switches and fixtures, cabinets and countertops.
It will be best to pull permits, especially if your putting that much into it and bringing up its value. If the city was to find out unpermitted changes was made they will make you tear it down and everything you spent will be for nothing.
Windows, exterior doors, (only if your replacing the jamb) add-ons, decks, anything structural, electrical (if your moving or adding new wire) plumbing, siding, and roofs. Those are some of the main things needing permits.
Doesn't need permits:
Mostly cosmetics such as, interior & exterior painting, interior doors, trim, floors, replacing plugs light switches and fixtures, cabinets and countertops.
It will be best to pull permits, especially if your putting that much into it and bringing up its value. If the city was to find out unpermitted changes was made they will make you tear it down and everything you spent will be for nothing.
From a contractor's point of view.
Where I live you don't need permits for windows unless you are changing the opening but you do need permit for replacing electrical outlets, light fixtures, and switches. Electrical code says the homeowner does not need a permit to replace defective (broken/not working) outlets/switches but if they are for cosmetics or and upgrade you need a permit... Kinda dumb but I fought one city on not needing a permit for defective and won.
Contractor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2015 · 379 posts · 740 votes
8y
I own a contracting firm with 12 in-house crews working 50 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, as well as a plumbing company. I deal with more permits and inspections in a month than most people will deal with in a lifetime. The idea that permits, licenses, and inspections make work better is simply laughable. What they mainly are is an industry protection scheme promoted originally by union plumbers and electricians and now continued by all the licensed trades to keep outsides from cutting into their profits.
First, most building inspectors are just about useless. They are typically guys who failed in the trades and decided they would go become an inspector. Can't tell you how many inspectors I know who "used to have" a plumbing business, electrical business, or whatever. I've never met an inspector - and I know dozens of them - that I'd trust to frame a new build, plumb a bathroom remodel, or wire a room addition. If they were any good, they'd make way more doing the work than inspecting the work.
Second, there's no way they actually understand the entirety of the IRC, so they all develop their little picky things that they will call out on every visit. Most of these little picky things have nothing to do with overall quality. So contractors learn, "Oh, this is in Bill's zone. Be sure to add extra expanding foam in all the corners, but be sure to miss one so he can have something to point out to you. Then ask him about his fishing boat." Doesn't add a thing to the overall quality of your job. It's just part of playing along with the legal game.
Sure, they can recognize really terrible work and may save someone from that. But with REI groups, Angie's List, HomeAdvisor and all the other referral sources out there, the only reason you'd be hiring a terrible contractor is if you picked the absolutely lowest bidder without regard to references....don't do that.
As for licensed contractors, I have seen truly abysmal work performed by licensed contractors - not just tradesmen or journeyman, but guys with master's licenses in plumbing or electrical. They're good at passing a test. Maybe not so good at installing plumbing so it doesn't leak. Texas, where I live, doesn't have licensing for general contractors. We've had a huge construction boom here for years, even when the rest of the country was in the dumps. If we've had a rash of houses falling down due to lack of GC licensing, I've missed it. Meanwhile, some states feel they need to license painters. Your tax dollars at work, protecting homeowners from a bad paint job. (Not really, the licensed guys still often do crappy work.)
People say permits don't cost that much. That's simply not true. The cost of permits is not just what the city charges you. It's that you're then required to use a licensed electrician to do simple crap like move a vanity light, or install a can light. And that licensed electrician either reports to a master electrician, or uses an RME (Responsible Master Electrician) to pull the electrical permit, and that guy wants to get paid. So the light that your handyman could relocate for $50 now becomes 3-4x that.
Want to install a new tub and plumb it? Any decent handyman can do that work in a day, probably at $50/hour or so. But pull a permit and now you have to have a licensed plumber, who's got a master plumber upline to pull plumbing permits, do the work at $150/hour. Except you still need your handyman, because God knows a plumber isn't going to actually install and caulk the surround on the tub.
Permits kinda make sense for really large jobs, where contractors might be tempted to cut corners. They definitely don't make sense on the average bathroom or kitchen remodel, or other typical cosmetic work.
Now all that said, would I trust a $40K job to a handyman? Probably not. But different people use that term in different ways. In our area, it means "a guy who does mediocre work in a bunch of different areas." But I hear in other areas, people actually use it with pride. So maybe your guy is one of those.
All that said, if you've had multiple reputable contractors - emphasis on reputable, make sure they're that - tell you they'd skip a permit on your job in that particular area, with that set of circumstances, I'd be a lot more likely to listen to them than a bunch of internet strangers (me included).
Realtor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
8y
Please get a permit. If you were doing something simple, that's one thing, but that kind of job you need a GC to run it. It's not worth the liability and other risks if you don't.
Ask your insurance company what they think about unpermitted work.
Real Estate Agent · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2017 · 41 posts · 32 votes
8y
If you personally know the quality, and craftsmanship of the individual performing the work, I would not pull permits. The less you deal with the city the better you are in the long run.
Real Estate Agent · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2017 · 41 posts · 32 votes
8y
Correction*. Interior repairs. Major repairs such as foundation, roofing etc. definitely pull one so you don't get into trouble, but can talk to contractors not to schedule follow up inspections.