Buy Treasuries or Real Estate?

Buy Treasuries or Real Estate?

Arn CenedellaPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2008 · 786 posts · 1k+ votes

While the 5% “risk free” Tbills looks attractive………….

It also at least partially assumes an investor can time the bottom of the real estate market.

Perhaps one CAN time the market……….

I went to Colgate University for undergrad and then University of Michigan for grad school and ended with a MS in Physical Chemistry. So I have at least a solid level of education and intelligence.

My entire adult career has been spent in the real estate industry starting in 1978…..and have been investing since 1980…….

And I don’t try to time the market………

In my experience:

1. The bottom of the market isn’t known for 6 to 12 months after the fact.

2. When the market turns up, it does so quickly and so the window of opportunity is short.

3. When the market turns up, prices also go up quickly.

We all read stories about immense amounts of capital - dry powder - poised to jump back into the market…….

Assuming there are deals to be had…….I submit for consideration, the retail investor isn’t going to get them……it’s the groups with Millions and even Billions in the bank that will get them……

While returns on multifamily have decreased - at the present time, solid deals run by experienced operators might yield 13% 14% IRRs……….and 16% or 17% annual rates of returns…..

On a 5 to 10 year horizon, I believe investors will be better off continuing to invest in real estate than Treasuries……..

So while parking the money in Treasuries may feel safe - deciding when and where to re-enter the market is a difficult decision.

I believe retail investors will do better investing with a long term horizon - less focus on timing the market or getting a deal - time in the market v timing the market.

Thoughts?

7Reply
98 views

Most Popular Reply

Member since 2018 · 8 posts · 13 votes
2y

Good insights from all three posts. Things I agree with:

-Real Estate Investing can typically get you a >10% IRR; appreciation, cash flow, amortization pay down, and depreciation.

-The common person isn’t very successful in timing the equities market, or many markets for that matter.

However, the short term market is shaping up to be very different than anything we've experienced in the last 20 years. Some metrics and predictions are trending toward a 30 year historical since we've seen some of this. While not impossible, it's hard to find deals right now. Appreciation is stuck between 5% and -5% in most markets. If you do find a deal based on price, your margins are squeezed because of cost of capital. With interest rates +8%, most deals aren't seeing a positive cash flow. In most cases you are not gettin a >10% IRR out the gate on new investments right now.

When securities are at 5%, you should expect a larger delta in IRR for the extra risk and work/time into other investments. Which is hard to come by right now, as explained above.

I’m not an investment advisor, so I’ll tell you what I’m doing. Since I already have great exposure to the real estate market, I am fine diversifying into the more passive securities while the market normalizes, or at least tries too. The delta needed for the added risk/exposure just isn’t there today. If I was just starting out and in growth mode then I might entertain more of the real estate market right now, having a more long term outlook, but I’m not. If I have enough for cash offers, I will move on those because I think there is some value add there for cash buyers in this short term market.

As of 10/28/23 the bond market is predicting rates +4.5% for the next 30 years, which normally equates to primary mortgage rates close to the 6%. Investment loans likely +7%. If this market is close to being correct then then the delta may not be there in the long term either. Expecting long term IRR of >10% could be detrimental, if this holds. In this scenario for the delta to become more intriguing, the prices of real estate would have to come down more than 10% or so. Likewise, this is one major metric I'm watching right now.


See this reply in the discussion

34 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Member since 2020 · 351 posts · 329 votes
    2y

    The t bills definitely look attractive and I have bought some for the first time ever but they are still less than 10% of my net worth.

    I also just bought my first rental and expect to make 9-13% IRR depending on luck (what it actually rents for, actual appreciation and actual maintenance costs). It's an okay deal now but if I get to refinance into a lower rate in a couple of years I will likely be very happy with the investment. I expect better opportunities in the future, but I want to learn if the juice is worth the squeeze that is how much headaches is landlording anyways.

  • Arn CenedellaPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2008 · 786 posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    @Peter W.

    I think you have a good plan and approach. 
    Diversify your capital. 
    Give rental real estate and try and see if you like it. 

    It’s a sound approach. 

  • Member since 2020 · 351 posts · 329 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Arn Cenedella:

    @Peter W.

    I think you have a good plan and approach. 
    Diversify your capital. 
    Give rental real estate and try and see if you like it. 

    It’s a sound approach. 


     I had the same thought. My wife was pushing for a 2-4 unit as the returns are likely higher, but a single family home has significantly lower cash invested better to be 30-40k invested and find out it doesn’t work for the family than 100k.

    With that said the next deal will have to be 15%+ expected IRR otherwise I'll just buy more google and microsoft. Can't really get that currently though.

  • Member since 2018 · 8 posts · 13 votes
    2y

    RE Bigger Pockets podcast #841 is very relatable to this topic. I don't remember treasuries being mentioned much or at all, however, what I took from it is that the environment has changed. What you did to be successful in the environment 2-3 years ago may not be successful in this go around. The mindset of investors have/are changing with the current environment. The fact that the question of this thread was posted is evidence of this internal mindset dilemma, this wouldn't even be a post 2-3 years ago.

  • Member since 2023 · 52 posts · 43 votes
    2y

    "at the present time, solid deals run by experienced operators might yield 13% 14% IRRs……….and 16% or 17% annual rates of returns…."

    Experienced operators. Thats the whole key. Real Estate is the best asset class of them all- for experienced, connected, professionals. BP isn't a place that likes to admit that often enough, if even at all. 

    Mom and poper's or W-2 workers dabbling on the side have very different returns and experiences in Real Estate. What usually saves amateurs in REI is if they can wait long enough, and the long game actually works out for them. Which isn't always, sadly.

    Treasuries might be laughable for experienced operators- or the best option for inexperienced, unconnected, non professionals. 

  • Member since 2018 · 8 posts · 13 votes
    2y

    I was thinking today with all the talks about cost of capital eating into returns, cutting cash flows, and CAP rates; why would one not pool investment funds deposit them into FDIC insured CDs then secure those funds to a CD secured loan and use those loan proceed into real estate or other investments. From what I'm seeing, CD secured loans are going at 2% over the interest rate of the CD. You keep the interest earned from the CD and effectively only have the +2% difference in cost of capital. This is a better interest cost than even seen before raising interest rates from the FED. The other plus is you would essentially be bringing cash to the investment table instead of real estate collateral backed loans which require much more stringent underwriting. In all my research and podcasts I have not heard anyone doing this, but sometimes my mind thinks differently. Thoughts on this?

  • Morris County, NJ · Member since 2020 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    2y

    @Nathan Whitson

    Don't know much about a CD secured loan.  But, I am guessing one issue could be the term of the CD.  Or, are you saying you can just keep "rolling" the CD and the associated secured loan?  What were the spread when fed rates were zero?  still 2%?  

    Anyway, its a net interest game which by it nature carries it owns risk.

    Are you trying to say purchase the real property in cash via the CD secured loan?  Don't leverage?  Also, why pay 2% for a CD secured loan instead of just using your cash for free?

  • Member since 2018 · 8 posts · 13 votes
    2y
    Quote from @David M.:

    @Nathan Whitson

    Don't know much about a CD secured loan.  But, I am guessing one issue could be the term of the CD.  Or, are you saying you can just keep "rolling" the CD and the associated secured loan?  What were the spread when fed rates were zero?  still 2%?  

    Anyway, its a net interest game which by it nature carries it owns risk.

    Are you trying to say purchase the real property in cash via the CD secured loan?  Don't leverage?  Also, why pay 2% for a CD secured loan instead of just using your cash for free?

    The CD secured spread has traditionally been 2%, regardless of where the over night Fed rate is. The argument in this current environment is cost of capital being 6-8% and cutting into cash flows, and killing deals.

    The spread of 2% wasn’t much of an option before because you had to put up that money for collateral and your competitive rate was 4-5%. Not much of a deal to put up your own money at that spread, but that environment has changed with increased rates, all while the CD loan spread has not changed of 2%.

    Now, it’s purely cost of capital, 8% nets a no deal in a lot of cases, but what if you could structure it closer to 2%? That’s what we are talking about right?! If cost of capital is 8% but you can make 5% on a nearly risk free securities then where is the deal at 8%? There is not many. Is there a deal at 2% cost in a risk free environment of 5%, of course there should be. So then you start brainstorming how can you get cost of capital to 2%? CD secured lending is an option that I can think of that literally no one is talking about.

    I have been thinking about this more since I posted. There are various options but consider the following: you have $500k in CDs earning 5%. You receive cash via CD secured loan at 7%, netting a spread of -2%, yet receiving $500k cash. You are losing capital at 2%. However, if you privately lend or invest these funds at anything more than 2% you are investment positive. When banks won’t lend at all or at least under 7%, I can effectively beat that rate via private lending or investing, anything above 2%. I would say loans offering near 2% rate would be in high demand in this market, in any market for that matter. Just by matching banks at 7% brings me 5% profit on the lending itself, because I am only paying 2% on those funds on the CD secured loan. Add that 5% to the 5% interest I am earning on my CD collateral, I am effectively earning 10% completely passive, albeit with some repayment risk or other risks depending on the investment, but still 10%.
  • Morris County, NJ · Member since 2020 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    2y

    @Nathan Whitson

    Without leverage, your secured CD loan is a losing deal.  Look at what you are writing.  Put up $500k to a CD, and get a loan for $500k.  Why pay the 2% spread for the secured loan against your own cash?  If you need to or want to use $500k of your own cash to invest, just go use it.  Why pay for a CD loan and the 2% spread?  You just imposed a 2% "fee" on yourself.

    Take your private lending example.  More specifically, i can lend out short term fix and flip loans at say 12%.  In your example, you net 10%.  But, I just take my cash and lend it out and get 12%....

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.