?Building a Junker Portfolio

?Building a Junker Portfolio

Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2009 · 718 posts · 913 votes

In the last few months, I have met a few retiring landlords who were looking to unload their properties. When I looked at the properties, I was really surprised at just how junky they were. They were a bunch of 2/1s and 3/1s woodframes in m’eh areas. (In my area, investors prefer brick and anything less than a 2 bath is functionally obsolete.) They did not have decent ARVs or decent comps, so even financing or refinancing would be tough. Basically, they appeared to have been picked up some time ago because they were "cheap" and now, many years later, they are still "cheap". (Hilariously, with the passage of time, these landlords had come to delude themselves that these were quality properties.)

I think @Jeff Brown harps on this, but it really got me thinking a lot about the importance of buying quality homes in quality areas for your long term portfolio. (Or at least properties that everyone else wants).

In my area, the highest quality rentals are 3 or 4 bedrooms with at least 2 bedrooms and a 2 car garage (brick, not wood) with ARVs between $80,000 and $150,000. The rents are commensurate with the ARV, and they are super easy to rent because they rent between $900 and $1500, which is what the bulk of tenants seek. They are also a great price point for first time home buyers. They are also very easy to finance, even after you get 10 mortgages. They are also (unsurprisingly) the homes with the highest demand and most competition.

When you are building an SFR portfolio, I think it's easy to become frustrated and compromise on the criteria of properties you add to your portfolio. Having done this awhile now (and seen where a junker portfolio gets you), I think this is really short-sighted for most investors. (I use the term "most investors" to describe people who want to balance ease of management with cash flow.)

First, you will end up with a portfolio of properties that is illiquid. It will be harder to sell or refinance, which is huge. You don’t know where you’ll be in 5 or 10 years, and if you want to move to the “next step” of real estate investing, whatever that may mean to you personally, you’ve got to be able to get to the equity in the properties you own.

Second, your chances for appreciation are limited. (yes, I know we shouldn’t buy for appreciation, but it’s sure nice when it happens). Heck, even just keeping up with inflation is important, particularly when you start to get a large enough portfolio. Junker properties stagnate (or decrease) in value.

Third, your chances of having a more difficult portfolio to manage becomes greater. (Not saying this guaranteed, but in my area the functionally obsolete tend to be in less nice neighborhoods with lower income tenants.)

I’m sure there are other reasons, these are just ones off the top of my head. I think most investors would be better served by (1) putting in more time to seek out quality properties (e.g. marketing); or (2) just pay more for them. In the long run, they’re likely to be better served.

I should throw out a couple of qualifications. First, I’m not bashing people who invest in functionally obsolete, nonconforming properties or in rougher areas (or both). You can make a killing on the cash flow, no doubt, but the headaches and difficulties are not for everyone. Second, I’m not saying there is no place in your portfolio for what I would call junker properties but you have got to buy them super cheap and as part of a larger strategy. I once bought a functionally obsolete property 2/1 for my portfolio in an almost-rough area. I bought it super cheap and understood it would be for cash flow purposes only, that is, that it would be difficult to refinance or grab the equity. I bought it only because I had enough quality properties that it didn’t matter. I wouldn’t. Third, I’m speaking in generalities in this post. These are just principles and there are obviously exceptions. Fourth, I’m probably being a little harsh in my use of the term “junker” to generally describe functionally obsolete, non-liquid properties. That’s more just my knee jerk reaction to the properties I saw recently.

I’m quite certain there’s nothing really novel in this post, but it’s just something I’ve been thinking about lately. Kind of curious if other people feel the same way.

7Reply
233 views

Most Popular Reply

Investor · Fort Wayne, IN · Member since 2009 · 391 posts · 257 votes
12y

Hi John,

I wanted to share my experience. I have built what you would classify as a junker portfolio and have done well. I have a large collection of 3/1's in C class neighborhoods with a mix of section 8 rentals in there as well.

I have found the key to my success is a competent property management team. I invested for cash flow and do not anticipate that I will have much appreciation. I am able to get portfolio loans on these properties although I have only done this once.

I realize that I am going against the grain on this thread but just wanted to share my results.

Chris

See this reply in the discussion

42 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Tom Lafferty:
    HEY @John Chapman
    Watch the Garland pot shots!

    I wonder if we can get @Rich Weese to weigh in on class C in Garland?

  • Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    BTW, I have only one Garland rental. $8300 per month.

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2009 · 718 posts · 913 votes
    12y

    Sorry, @Jon Klaus and @Tom Lafferty I couldn't help on the Garland potshot. I just cannot understand the allure of that place, but I'm in the minority. There are tons of investors out there gobbling up anything that comes on the market. (I'm not sure I would even call a lot of Garland "junker" as they are highly liquid and sought after.)

    As an aside, have you ever seen the reference to Garland in the movie "Zombieland"? Hilarious.

  • Plano, TX · Member since 2013 · 226 posts · 156 votes
    12y

    I'm projecting $20k/mo on my one and only property-- in Garland. I sure hope Chapman doesn't jinx it!

  • Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Tom Lafferty:
    I'm projecting $20k/mo on my one and only property-- in Garland. I sure hope Chapman doesn't jinx it!

    I think Weese's class C Garland property grosses near a million a year in rent.

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    Hi Jon and others,

    Just happened to be available. Bought a new home in "Disneyland for adults", The Villages in FL. I've got a bunch of construction people coming to give me bids so I'm just sitting here.

    I'm very happy with my 154 units in Garland. I get a weekly report from my Mgmt people every Tuesday. Yesterday, a SINGLE vacancy out of 154 units. Time to increase new rentals and increase MGMT pay a bit.

    On a side note. There was a hailstorm in TX some time back and we got 2 quotes. One was for 600K plus and we had to do the repairs. The other was for just under 400K and I could take the money and do no repairs. Here is where it gets fun. Forty of the roof airs were considered damaged and would be replaced. mgmt people convinced Lloyds of London that the interior exchanger was not compatible and insurance replaced both. All the roofs were re-done and when they got into roofs, the mansard portion was decayed as well as the plywood underneath. Insurance replaced ALL of the mansards and even allowed new gutters all the way around each of the 13 buildings! Total of all payments was a little over 1.4 MILLION! Yes, I'm very happy with my class C

    Those that don't know me, I also believe strongly in new homes and my subdivision in So.TX is also doing very well with 4 homes under construction at present. Hope all is well for all the BP folks. Rich

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2009 · 718 posts · 913 votes
    12y

    Just to be clear guys, I'm not bashing Class C properties or large multis or anything like that. Just making some observations on building SFR portfolios. Yes, I will continue to bash Garland, but only because I enjoy it, not because I don't think you can't make money there. :) Hope I didn't cause offense. (You can never tell with electronic communications the reactions people are really having.)

  • Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    I see the biggest potential positive to a class C SFR portfolio being high cash flow/NOI.

    Biggest drawback is poorer liquidity. Second to that is more management intensive.

    No problem on Garland. BTW, the city is working on a major redevelopment plan along IH 635.

  • Realtor · Omaha, NE · Member since 2011 · 110 posts · 25 votes
    10y

    "Junker" properties can work well. A good option can be fixing up the property enough were it's sec 8 suitable. As long as the neighborhood is OK. You want a pocket were people take care of lawns, have a decent clean curb appeal, see no broken windows, etc. If you do this and screen decently you will have reliable payments made to you. Not to mention you can usually rent higher with sec 8 than conventional because sec 8 pays a large portion of someone's rent.

  • Rental Property Investor · Evans, GA · Member since 2014 · 74 posts · 65 votes
    10y

    Personally, I don't mind the C class neighborhoods in my market.

    I find that my Section 8 renters take great care of my properties if I give them a good product and I am relatively responsive to their needs.

    There are "professional" section 8 renters out there that take pride in their residence, but find that they are better off keeping a certain income to get their government benefits.

    I know this is a totally different discussion, but it is amazing how our local, state, and national governments take care of folks if they work the system.

    You can get great long-term tenants by giving a little personal attention to them and letting them know that you are in the business of taking care of their home and want them to stay there for the long term.

    The investor receives great returns and the tenant has a nice quality dwelling where they would like to live.

    A big problem in my market is that a lot of "old school" landlords don't put money back into their investments.  If you make an effort to respond to any issues section 8 tenants tend to stay with you an extended time at a premium rent guaranteed on the 1st of the month with no headache.

    I agree that there is poorer liquidity, but you need to buy these units with the intention of cash-flow and if you need to sell give your buyer a nice ROI.

    It is much easier to find a motivated seller in these neighborhoods because the buyer is generally an investor.

    It's a higher management play in the short run, but there are quality tenants out there that appreciate personal attention.  I think the key is choosing the tenant, setting expectations, and retention.

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    I guess I should pitch in with an update. I'm actually in Dallas for 2 days meeting with managers, banker etc. My Garland Property is doing very well, thank you. As Jon stated way back, property was grossing 90K per month. In April, I increased gross rents to $99,320 per month and collected rents  (including Misc. income) was 94 in April and May, 96K in June, 99K in July and  101K in Aug. and 102K in Sept. This represents a 10%+ increase. The good news is we are 98%+ occupancy and rents are STILL low. We did a comp yesterday of 17 buildings within immediate neighborhood and rents will be raised again by another 5% (approx) before end of year.

    I have MANY Brokers wanting to present the property to interested parties, but I'm not ready quite yet. They are pretty much at the 8 million price. I paid 4million + in late 09. I believe I'll be selling the property in 16 for DOUBLE my price paid. I put 1.3 million down and should "net" approximately 5.5 million on sale. I'm VERY happy with my 400% return on my investment (not counting the million + cash flow over the time of ownership). 

    As i stated in my Book, and on many posts here on BP, I've been very "LUCKY" on picking locations and areas. Garland has certainly been one of those. The Garland community center was built directly across the street after acquisition. Property is a cash machine and located on Walnut if you want to see a great "C" property.

    Rich Weese 

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    I should start another post on additional property to show I'm not just hung up on Garland.

    In May and June, I bought 2 more sizeable properties:

    128 units in Grand Prairie.  All kinds of development coming to immediate area (1933 Freeway Rd.)Ikea, Walmart and more. I guess another "LUCKY" choice. I had to do a complete exterior redo. Rents were 88K in Feb of this year. These are large units, built in late 60's and completely transformed on the exterior and grounds. Market rent is $99,665 per month with collectibles currently at 90K. This is up from 80K upon acquisition and hopefully headed into high 90's within the next quarter. Tree top is the name

    164 units in Mesquite- This was another rough property and a Fannie mae assumption. YUK. Rents have gone from 92K to 103K in Sept and hopefully on our way to the current market rent of $109,512. It has been a rapid increase but a lot of work cleaning house, making policy changes etc. Exterior still has a long way to go but trying to tap the Cap Ex funds being held by Fannie (nearly 200K) We also negotiated as part of the deal to take over an insurance claim from a year ago. I'm hoping to hit another home run on the settlement(like Pine View). 

    As I've always said, I truly believe these options are available to everyone, but you need to look around and extend your areas of interest. I've bought over 1000 sfrs and thousands of apartments in 7 different states over my career.  Most would be concerned about being out of area owners, but I have been ok with that. 

    Class "C" has been ok for me, but as Jon said, I have also built brand  new in 4 different states. I'll keep posting updates in the future on these investments

    Rich Weese

  • Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    Awesome update, Rich. I'm sure you are glad to have all the hurdles of The Grand Prarie and Mesqute acquisitions behind you.  I see new apartments going up at Oates and Gus Thomasson.  

    I bought my Garland office building in 2008.  Value is now close to double what I paid.  Thinking of selling soon as my loan comes due it 18 months.  

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    I also saw a new building near Pine View with a gigantic concrete multi level parking structure. Not sure if condos or apts.  Just finished visiting Pine View and Princeton and am at the airport. Very pleased with where we are on all 3 buildings. Going to keep Pine View into late 2016 at least. I'm sure you're doing well. 7 more years on any of my properties loans or longer. Pretty fat and comfy.

    Do well.

    Rich

  • Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 41 posts · 11 votes
    10y

    I recently purchased a 1,300 sq ft 3/1 SFR wood frame in Garland and it is doing very well. I found a tenant within 2 weeks at $1,200 per month. It is fairly nice inside with hardwood floors.I expect it to cash flow about $300 per month.

  • Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Mark S.:

    I recently purchased a 1,300 sq ft 3/1 SFR wood frame in Garland and it is doing very well. I found a tenant within 2 weeks at $1,200 per month. It is fairly nice inside with hardwood floors.I expect it to cash flow about $300 per month.

     How much did you pay for it, Mark?  It wasn't that long ago that 3-2-2 brick homes in Garland were going for $1200/mo.

  • Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 41 posts · 11 votes
    10y

    @Jon Klaus I paid $95,000.  

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.