Advice plz about inspection report "knob and tube"

Member since 2024 · 19 posts · 2 votes

Hello,

So, the inspection report came back with multiple hazardous flags that needs to be addressed , but the most one that it is expensive (25k cost) is the" knob and tube issues "of the electrical stuff. Its old house (1900s). Does anyone has experience with this. is it something that i need to address right away if i purchase this rental property. The original offer was 300k but then we asked for 25k off since there are other multiple things needs to be address like old furnace and stuff like that, but we asked that they take care of the hazardous flags. Now they said ok to drop 25k and we cover for everything including the hazardous flags. Should I ask for another 25k off, or should I walk away. How serious is this. The knob and tubing is in the attic and basement.

Thank you

Here is the report

0 Reply

150 views

Most Popular Reply

Bruce WoodruffPro Member

Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes

@Amer Swid I have dealt with this many times....get it re-wired, it is not worth the risk! Brand new knob and tube would be marginally ok, if you added a ground wire. 125 yr old wire of any kind is a hazard, and knob and tube in particular has a lot of issues Some of the previous posters have tried to justify it saying that it is legal because it was up to code when installed.....but they neglect to say that any K&T system still in place has certainly been altered, modified, added to since it was installed...and that automatically makes it illegal. I can guarantee you that virtually every KT system out there has been altered and without a permit because it would never be issued. I have never seen a Building Dept or inspector that would say, "sure just splice into the old KT, we'll pass it"

Let me put it like this - KT is always unsafe and should always be replaced ASAP - Here are the problems with KT:

1) The wires are far more exposed than any modern wiring

2) Splices (original) are not made in J-Boxes, and most newer splices will not be either. This violates code and is really dangerous...

3) No Ground

4) Dangerous when Insulation is present, which it usually will be nowadays. K&T was designed to keep the wires cool (hence the knobs). If you see K&T with insulation all over or under it, get it replaced immediately if not sooner...

5) Bent wires - happens all the time, and that type of old insulation wrap breaks when it gets bent.

6) New splices will be inline and not in boxes...no bueno...

7) Brittle insulation - of course it'll be brittle, it's old

8) Usually you will pay higher insurance premiums - if they know about it. If they don't and you have a fire, they may refuse to pay out, saying that you did not disclose the K&T

7 Reply

See this reply in the discussion

44 Replies

Jump to latestLatest

Sort by

Bryan HartlenPro Member
Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2018 · 315 posts · 157 votes
2y
As already noted it can be dangerous if the sheathing is cracking.
Aside from this there’s a real business implication of closing without replacing. If you ever plan to rehab the property and have to pull an electrical permit you could be required to do a complete rewire. Your local inspector office can shed light on what conditions would trigger a full update. Assuming you don’t end up ever having to update it will be an issue when you go to sell the property. In the same way that you are concerned now, future buyers will also be. It could cost you on sale price or concessions.
2 Reply
Kevin Sobilo
Realtor · Hanover Twp, PA · Member since 2018 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Bryan Hartlen:

As already noted it can be dangerous if the sheathing is cracking.
Aside from this there’s a real business implication of closing without replacing. If you ever plan to rehab the property and have to pull an electrical permit you could be required to do a complete rewire. Your local inspector office can shed light on what conditions would trigger a full update. Assuming you don’t end up ever having to update it will be an issue when you go to sell the property. In the same way that you are concerned now, future buyers will also be. It could cost you on sale price or concessions.

Generally speaking you would not be required to rewire except for areas you are working on. So, if you gutted a kitchen you would have to bring everything in that area up to current codes.
Keep in mind knob & tube is "up to code"! Work is only expected to be up to the code that was in place when the work was done. So, it is "up to code" just not up to CURRENT code.
If you were required to bring everything up to current code in a house any time you did any kind of rehab, work you did 2-3 years ago would need to be redone as codes are constantly changing/evolving.
2 Reply
Bryan HartlenPro Member
Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2018 · 315 posts · 157 votes
2y
Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @Bryan Hartlen:

As already noted it can be dangerous if the sheathing is cracking.
Aside from this there’s a real business implication of closing without replacing. If you ever plan to rehab the property and have to pull an electrical permit you could be required to do a complete rewire. Your local inspector office can shed light on what conditions would trigger a full update. Assuming you don’t end up ever having to update it will be an issue when you go to sell the property. In the same way that you are concerned now, future buyers will also be. It could cost you on sale price or concessions.

Generally speaking you would not be required to rewire except for areas you are working on. So, if you gutted a kitchen you would have to bring everything in that area up to current codes.
Keep in mind knob & tube is "up to code"! Work is only expected to be up to the code that was in place when the work was done. So, it is "up to code" just not up to CURRENT code.
If you were required to bring everything up to current code in a house any time you did any kind of rehab, work you did 2-3 years ago would need to be redone as codes are constantly changing/evolving.
Agreed. That’s why I said “it could”. And for what it’s worth, we’re in the middle of a complete rewire from 2-wire (not even knob and tube) in AL because of the inspector’s view of the code for that particular city. So it can happen.
0 Reply
Amer Swid
OP
Member since 2024 · 19 posts · 2 votes
2y
@Kevin Sobilo@Account Closed Well, thank you so much everyone for your time and valuable points!! I will probably then should ask the seller to deal with it or at least give me a credit for it and ill fix it (I will send probably the electrician and see how much would everything cost). I'm just not sure how should i proceed with the seller since they already accepted to drop 25k from purchase price, it will be hard to ask them again to drop another 25k. The good thing is that those properties owned by a church so im not dealing with one person, so they might be more lenient.
1 Reply
Kevin Sobilo
Realtor · Hanover Twp, PA · Member since 2018 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Bryan Hartlen:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @Bryan Hartlen:

As already noted it can be dangerous if the sheathing is cracking.
Aside from this there’s a real business implication of closing without replacing. If you ever plan to rehab the property and have to pull an electrical permit you could be required to do a complete rewire. Your local inspector office can shed light on what conditions would trigger a full update. Assuming you don’t end up ever having to update it will be an issue when you go to sell the property. In the same way that you are concerned now, future buyers will also be. It could cost you on sale price or concessions.

Generally speaking you would not be required to rewire except for areas you are working on. So, if you gutted a kitchen you would have to bring everything in that area up to current codes.
Keep in mind knob & tube is "up to code"! Work is only expected to be up to the code that was in place when the work was done. So, it is "up to code" just not up to CURRENT code.
If you were required to bring everything up to current code in a house any time you did any kind of rehab, work you did 2-3 years ago would need to be redone as codes are constantly changing/evolving.
Agreed. That’s why I said “it could”. And for what it’s worth, we’re in the middle of a complete rewire from 2-wire (not even knob and tube) in AL because of the inspector’s view of the code for that particular city. So it can happen.

No doubt, an inspector can over-reach and do the wrong thing. Then the decision is whether to suck it up or smack the inspector down and yes most of the time its to suck it up unfortunately.
0 Reply
David M.
Morris County, NJ · Member since 2020 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
2y
@Amer Swid not to fear monger, and I do agree with the other posts, but just realize that its a MUCH older standard / "technology." One reason why its not used anymore is as mentioned about the brittle covering, the porcelain, etc. Also, i don't believe they are rated, according to today's standards, to carry as much current. The big issue is it could cause an electrical fire down the road.
Not to fear monger, but my "yardstick" is how some insurance companies won't insure with knob and tube, or those that do increase the premium.
You may see it in the attic and basement, but I'm guessing its in the walls otherwise how else would you have electrical sockets.
Just realize that addressing the knob and tube and bring the house to "current code" can be a bigger job than you realize. There is probably 1 or 2 outlets in a room. Nowadays, code in NJ is something like an outlet on every wall and no more than 6' apart --- so a 13' wall requires two sets of outlets. Kitchens workout to be something like min of 4 circuits: stove/oven if electric, two on the counter (we have microwaves and toasters), the lights have their own circuit, the range fan maybe---- okay... thats more than 4 and I don't know, that's what my licensed electrician is for.
Oh, is there a fuse box or circuit breaker panel? Even if the latter, how old is it? Just something else to potentially price in.
The point is, there is one step to just "remediate" the existing wire, and a different step to bring it up to code...
Good luck.
1 Reply
Amer Swid
OP
Member since 2024 · 19 posts · 2 votes
2y
@David M.I see thank you!! Do you think this job can be done while there is a tenant living in the apartment? or this need the house to be evacuated since the electric is going through the walls. Just wondering
0 Reply
Bruce WoodruffPro Member
Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
2y
@Amer Swid I have dealt with this many times....get it re-wired, it is not worth the risk! Brand new knob and tube would be marginally ok, if you added a ground wire. 125 yr old wire of any kind is a hazard, and knob and tube in particular has a lot of issues Some of the previous posters have tried to justify it saying that it is legal because it was up to code when installed.....but they neglect to say that any K&T system still in place has certainly been altered, modified, added to since it was installed...and that automatically makes it illegal. I can guarantee you that virtually every KT system out there has been altered and without a permit because it would never be issued. I have never seen a Building Dept or inspector that would say, "sure just splice into the old KT, we'll pass it"

Let me put it like this - KT is always unsafe and should always be replaced ASAP - Here are the problems with KT:

1) The wires are far more exposed than any modern wiring

2) Splices (original) are not made in J-Boxes, and most newer splices will not be either. This violates code and is really dangerous...

3) No Ground

4) Dangerous when Insulation is present, which it usually will be nowadays. K&T was designed to keep the wires cool (hence the knobs). If you see K&T with insulation all over or under it, get it replaced immediately if not sooner...

5) Bent wires - happens all the time, and that type of old insulation wrap breaks when it gets bent.

6) New splices will be inline and not in boxes...no bueno...

7) Brittle insulation - of course it'll be brittle, it's old

8) Usually you will pay higher insurance premiums - if they know about it. If they don't and you have a fire, they may refuse to pay out, saying that you did not disclose the K&T
7 Reply
Amer Swid
OP
Member since 2024 · 19 posts · 2 votes
2y
Thank you so much @Bruce Woodruff!! This is just an informative reply!!
One last question, from your experience, can the job done while people are living in the apartments? there are tenants residing in those places, so im wiondering if the job can be completed while they are present.
0 Reply
Bruce WoodruffPro Member
Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Amer Swid:

Thank you so much @Bruce Woodruff!! This is just an informative reply!!
One last question, from your experience, can the job done while people are living in the apartments? there are tenants residing in those places, so im wiondering if the job can be completed while they are present.

Is there a crawlspace and/or attic? If so it can possibly be done with tenants present....but it will be rough on the electricians and the tenants even so. I would plan on somebody putting the tenants in a hotel for a few days. At $150 per room for 3 days, that's only $450 each tenant....
If you like the building in other ways, I wouldn't let this deter you from the purchase...but I'd get the current owner to pony up as much money as possible. He's trying to pass his problem on to you...make it his problem...
1 Reply
Kevin Sobilo
Realtor · Hanover Twp, PA · Member since 2018 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

@Amer Swid I have dealt with this many times....get it re-wired, it is not worth the risk! Brand new knob and tube would be marginally ok, if you added a ground wire. 125 yr old wire of any kind is a hazard, and knob and tube in particular has a lot of issues Some of the previous posters have tried to justify it saying that it is legal because it was up to code when installed.....but they neglect to say that any K&T system still in place has certainly been altered, modified, added to since it was installed...and that automatically makes it illegal. I can guarantee you that virtually every KT system out there has been altered and without a permit because it would never be issued. I have never seen a Building Dept or inspector that would say, "sure just splice into the old KT, we'll pass it"

Let me put it like this - KT is always unsafe and should always be replaced ASAP - Here are the problems with KT:

1) The wires are far more exposed than any modern wiring

2) Splices (original) are not made in J-Boxes, and most newer splices will not be either. This violates code and is really dangerous...

3) No Ground

4) Dangerous when Insulation is present, which it usually will be nowadays. K&T was designed to keep the wires cool (hence the knobs). If you see K&T with insulation all over or under it, get it replaced immediately if not sooner...

5) Bent wires - happens all the time, and that type of old insulation wrap breaks when it gets bent.

6) New splices will be inline and not in boxes...no bueno...

7) Brittle insulation - of course it'll be brittle, it's old

8) Usually you will pay higher insurance premiums - if they know about it. If they don't and you have a fire, they may refuse to pay out, saying that you did not disclose the K&T

In some ways you are correct and some ways you are mistaken.

1. The idea that modifying the KT system makes it illegal. You should have said, adding onto a KT circuit because inspectors have no issue if you want to add a new circuit onto a system that has KT wiring and that is super common.

2. The idea that KT is always illegally modified. In my experience it seems uncommon. Most times new circuits are run but I don't often see new outlets/fixtures spliced onto existing KT wiring. I agree that should not happen.

3. The lack of ground is less of an issue than one would think on the surface. Less and less appliances are even including a ground on their plug. There are also solutions for ungrounded outlets without re-wiring. It is acceptable to use a gfci outlet without a ground if you label it as such. That is a decent way to handle ungrounded outlets you want to upgrade without re-wiring.

4. Dangerous with insulation. Yes! That is a very good point. If you insulate exterior walls and run a heavy duty appliance such as a large window air conditioner the wire can heat up. Of course insulation is made to not be combustible but there is still a risk there that should be addressed. I would always have a modern outlet co-located to bedroom windows specifically for that reason.

5. Insurance can be an issue, but there are insurance companies that don't do on-site inspections and therefore accept whatever is there. So, a payout should not be an issue, but yes there might be a modestly higher premium there.

My original post was not meant to indicate that its a good idea to leave all the KT in place only to state what the requirement is. It isn't always feasible to rewire everything and there are ways to mitigate the risks without having to replace every wire. If people don't understand what the requirements are and what the risks are and what the options are they cannot craft a scope of work that meets their goals.

There are lots of modest homes in cheap markets where a whole house re-wire just is not going to fly. So, this isn't an issue where its always a simple no-brainer type decision as you made it sound like.

0 Reply
Alan F.
Flipper/Rehabber · CA · Member since 2023 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Amer Swid:

Hello,

So, the inspection report came back with multiple hazardous flags that needs to be addressed , but the most one that it is expensive (25k cost) is the" knob and tube issues "of the electrical stuff. Its old house (1900s). Does anyone has experience with this. is it something that i need to address right away if i purchase this rental property. The original offer was 300k but then we asked for 25k off since there are other multiple things needs to be address like old furnace and stuff like that, but we asked that they take care of the hazardous flags. Now they said ok to drop 25k and we cover for everything including the hazardous flags. Should I ask for another 25k off, or should I walk away. How serious is this. The knob and tubing is in the attic and basement.

Thank you

Here is the report

As an Electrical Contractor for over 31 years I highly recommend it all be removed and rewired in accordance with the code cycle in that municipality. Human safety and property security always overrides economics.
3 Reply
Bruce WoodruffPro Member
Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

1. The idea that modifying the KT system makes it illegal. You should have said, adding onto a KT circuit because inspectors have no issue if you want to add a new circuit onto a system that has KT wiring and that is super common.

2. The idea that KT is always illegally modified. In my experience it seems uncommon. Most times new circuits are run but I don't often see new outlets/fixtures spliced onto existing KT wiring. I agree that should not happen.

3. The lack of ground is less of an issue than one would think on the surface. Less and less appliances are even including a ground on their plug. There are also solutions for ungrounded outlets without re-wiring. It is acceptable to use a gfci outlet without a ground if you label it as such. That is a decent way to handle ungrounded outlets you want to upgrade without re-wiring.

4. Dangerous with insulation. Yes! That is a very good point. If you insulate exterior walls and run a heavy duty appliance such as a large window air conditioner the wire can heat up. Of course insulation is made to not be combustible but there is still a risk there that should be addressed. I would always have a modern outlet co-located to bedroom windows specifically for that reason.

5. Insurance can be an issue, but there are insurance companies that don't do on-site inspections and therefore accept whatever is there. So, a payout should not be an issue, but yes there might be a modestly higher premium there.

My original post was not meant to indicate that its a good idea to leave all the KT in place only to state what the requirement is. It isn't always feasible to rewire everything and there are ways to mitigate the risks without having to replace every wire. If people don't understand what the requirements are and what the risks are and what the options are they cannot craft a scope of work that meets their goals.

There are lots of modest homes in cheap markets where a whole house re-wire just is not going to fly. So, this isn't an issue where its always a simple no-brainer type decision as you made it sound like.

1) I was only referring to splicing into the current wiring, not adding separate circuit from the box. Still a bad idea though.
2) Yes, it is almost always illegally modified...because all connections have to be in a box. ALL of them. You will rarely see this with KT, it's just barely possible physically. I don't think, in thousands of experiences, I've ever seen KT terminate in a legal box and be connected to new Romex correctly.
3) Sorry you're incorrect here. The reason appliances are dropping the plug ground is that many are class 2 now, meaning double insulated. This does not relate to what we're talking about.
4) We agree! But you really shouldn't be running AC off KT anyway...but I digress...
5) I guess that's true...but I wouldn't want to take the chance.

Look, we're not talking about a ton of money here and KT is really a dangerous system at this point in it's age, there's just no two ways about it. It's not made for today's load either amperage or heat related. I would urge everyone that has it to get rid of it.
3 Reply
Bruce WoodruffPro Member
Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Alan F.:

Quote from @Amer Swid:

Hello,

So, the inspection report came back with multiple hazardous flags that needs to be addressed , but the most one that it is expensive (25k cost) is the" knob and tube issues "of the electrical stuff. Its old house (1900s). Does anyone has experience with this. is it something that i need to address right away if i purchase this rental property. The original offer was 300k but then we asked for 25k off since there are other multiple things needs to be address like old furnace and stuff like that, but we asked that they take care of the hazardous flags. Now they said ok to drop 25k and we cover for everything including the hazardous flags. Should I ask for another 25k off, or should I walk away. How serious is this. The knob and tubing is in the attic and basement.

Thank you

Here is the report

As an Electrical Contractor for over 31 years I highly recommend it all be removed and rewired in accordance with the code cycle in that municipality. Human safety and property security always overrides economics.

Thank you @Alan F. the voice of reason (and experience!) Same goes for aluminum wiring (55% greater fire risk).
1 Reply
Kevin Sobilo
Realtor · Hanover Twp, PA · Member since 2018 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

1. The idea that modifying the KT system makes it illegal. You should have said, adding onto a KT circuit because inspectors have no issue if you want to add a new circuit onto a system that has KT wiring and that is super common.

2. The idea that KT is always illegally modified. In my experience it seems uncommon. Most times new circuits are run but I don't often see new outlets/fixtures spliced onto existing KT wiring. I agree that should not happen.

3. The lack of ground is less of an issue than one would think on the surface. Less and less appliances are even including a ground on their plug. There are also solutions for ungrounded outlets without re-wiring. It is acceptable to use a gfci outlet without a ground if you label it as such. That is a decent way to handle ungrounded outlets you want to upgrade without re-wiring.

4. Dangerous with insulation. Yes! That is a very good point. If you insulate exterior walls and run a heavy duty appliance such as a large window air conditioner the wire can heat up. Of course insulation is made to not be combustible but there is still a risk there that should be addressed. I would always have a modern outlet co-located to bedroom windows specifically for that reason.

5. Insurance can be an issue, but there are insurance companies that don't do on-site inspections and therefore accept whatever is there. So, a payout should not be an issue, but yes there might be a modestly higher premium there.

My original post was not meant to indicate that its a good idea to leave all the KT in place only to state what the requirement is. It isn't always feasible to rewire everything and there are ways to mitigate the risks without having to replace every wire. If people don't understand what the requirements are and what the risks are and what the options are they cannot craft a scope of work that meets their goals.

There are lots of modest homes in cheap markets where a whole house re-wire just is not going to fly. So, this isn't an issue where its always a simple no-brainer type decision as you made it sound like.

1) I was only referring to splicing into the current wiring, not adding separate circuit from the box. Still a bad idea though.
2) Yes, it is almost always illegally modified...because all connections have to be in a box. ALL of them. You will rarely see this with KT, it's just barely possible physically. I don't think, in thousands of experiences, I've ever seen KT terminate in a legal box and be connected to new Romex correctly.
3) Sorry you're incorrect here. The reason appliances are dropping the plug ground is that many are class 2 now, meaning double insulated. This does not relate to what we're talking about.
4) We agree! But you really shouldn't be running AC off KT anyway...but I digress...
5) I guess that's true...but I wouldn't want to take the chance.

Look, we're not talking about a ton of money here and KT is really a dangerous system at this point in it's age, there's just no two ways about it. It's not made for today's load either amperage or heat related. I would urge everyone that has it to get rid of it.

No ground conductor means that appliance is no safer on a KT circuit or a modern circuit. That was my point there and I also pointed out you can upgrade to a gfci outlet to provide protection without re-wiring which is a proper upgrade to make.

The most common place I see KT left untouched are ceilings on the first floor where it would be hard to wish new wire easily. With modern LED lights and no issue with load or heat this does not seem a high priority to me. I certainly understand why people chose to leave that circuit alone.

As for what what @Alan F. said, you have to take it with a large grain of salt because its not a good idea to blindly take advice from someone who sells a service/product. For example, every roofer will tell you to tear off not roll-over or to replace just because a roof is a certain age etc. Plus it looks like he is in an expensive California market with newer housing stock. So, he may not be familiar with the choices necessary to make good deals where the housing stock and financials are different just like I would not be familiar with the choices common in his market where housing stock and deals are very different from my market.
Nobody is saying "Just leave it, its fine", but people should understand how and why they are spending their money. Just like with a roof, it isn't a simple no-brainer choice sometimes.
1 Reply
Alan F.
Flipper/Rehabber · CA · Member since 2023 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

1. The idea that modifying the KT system makes it illegal. You should have said, adding onto a KT circuit because inspectors have no issue if you want to add a new circuit onto a system that has KT wiring and that is super common.

2. The idea that KT is always illegally modified. In my experience it seems uncommon. Most times new circuits are run but I don't often see new outlets/fixtures spliced onto existing KT wiring. I agree that should not happen.

3. The lack of ground is less of an issue than one would think on the surface. Less and less appliances are even including a ground on their plug. There are also solutions for ungrounded outlets without re-wiring. It is acceptable to use a gfci outlet without a ground if you label it as such. That is a decent way to handle ungrounded outlets you want to upgrade without re-wiring.

4. Dangerous with insulation. Yes! That is a very good point. If you insulate exterior walls and run a heavy duty appliance such as a large window air conditioner the wire can heat up. Of course insulation is made to not be combustible but there is still a risk there that should be addressed. I would always have a modern outlet co-located to bedroom windows specifically for that reason.

5. Insurance can be an issue, but there are insurance companies that don't do on-site inspections and therefore accept whatever is there. So, a payout should not be an issue, but yes there might be a modestly higher premium there.

My original post was not meant to indicate that its a good idea to leave all the KT in place only to state what the requirement is. It isn't always feasible to rewire everything and there are ways to mitigate the risks without having to replace every wire. If people don't understand what the requirements are and what the risks are and what the options are they cannot craft a scope of work that meets their goals.

There are lots of modest homes in cheap markets where a whole house re-wire just is not going to fly. So, this isn't an issue where its always a simple no-brainer type decision as you made it sound like.

1) I was only referring to splicing into the current wiring, not adding separate circuit from the box. Still a bad idea though.
2) Yes, it is almost always illegally modified...because all connections have to be in a box. ALL of them. You will rarely see this with KT, it's just barely possible physically. I don't think, in thousands of experiences, I've ever seen KT terminate in a legal box and be connected to new Romex correctly.
3) Sorry you're incorrect here. The reason appliances are dropping the plug ground is that many are class 2 now, meaning double insulated. This does not relate to what we're talking about.
4) We agree! But you really shouldn't be running AC off KT anyway...but I digress...
5) I guess that's true...but I wouldn't want to take the chance.

Look, we're not talking about a ton of money here and KT is really a dangerous system at this point in it's age, there's just no two ways about it. It's not made for today's load either amperage or heat related. I would urge everyone that has it to get rid of it.

No ground conductor means that appliance is no safer on a KT circuit or a modern circuit. That was my point there and I also pointed out you can upgrade to a gfci outlet to provide protection without re-wiring which is a proper upgrade to make.

The most common place I see KT left untouched are ceilings on the first floor where it would be hard to wish new wire easily. With modern LED lights and no issue with load or heat this does not seem a high priority to me. I certainly understand why people chose to leave that circuit alone.

As for what what @Alan F. said, you have to take it with a large grain of salt because its not a good idea to blindly take advice from someone who sells a service/product. For example, every roofer will tell you to tear off not roll-over or to replace just because a roof is a certain age etc. Plus it looks like he is in an expensive California market with newer housing stock. So, he may not be familiar with the choices necessary to make good deals where the housing stock and financials are different just like I would not be familiar with the choices common in his market where housing stock and deals are very different from my market.
Nobody is saying "Just leave it, its fine", but people should understand how and why they are spending their money. Just like with a roof, it isn't a simple no-brainer choice sometimes.

With all do respect I'm not selling any service on this forum, nor have I ever. FWIW there's lots of K&T residential structures in CA. There's a very old knob and tube practice called a "California three way" (neutral leg was opened during switching) that led to many liability lawsuits, many structures still have this. There are a multitude of other reasons that K&T is no longer acceptable.
All that being said, I've witnessed loss of life and property due to the unskilled management and implementation of residential electrical systems and that has definitely affected my decisions.
4 Reply
Kevin Sobilo
Realtor · Hanover Twp, PA · Member since 2018 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Alan F.:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

1. The idea that modifying the KT system makes it illegal. You should have said, adding onto a KT circuit because inspectors have no issue if you want to add a new circuit onto a system that has KT wiring and that is super common.

2. The idea that KT is always illegally modified. In my experience it seems uncommon. Most times new circuits are run but I don't often see new outlets/fixtures spliced onto existing KT wiring. I agree that should not happen.

3. The lack of ground is less of an issue than one would think on the surface. Less and less appliances are even including a ground on their plug. There are also solutions for ungrounded outlets without re-wiring. It is acceptable to use a gfci outlet without a ground if you label it as such. That is a decent way to handle ungrounded outlets you want to upgrade without re-wiring.

4. Dangerous with insulation. Yes! That is a very good point. If you insulate exterior walls and run a heavy duty appliance such as a large window air conditioner the wire can heat up. Of course insulation is made to not be combustible but there is still a risk there that should be addressed. I would always have a modern outlet co-located to bedroom windows specifically for that reason.

5. Insurance can be an issue, but there are insurance companies that don't do on-site inspections and therefore accept whatever is there. So, a payout should not be an issue, but yes there might be a modestly higher premium there.

My original post was not meant to indicate that its a good idea to leave all the KT in place only to state what the requirement is. It isn't always feasible to rewire everything and there are ways to mitigate the risks without having to replace every wire. If people don't understand what the requirements are and what the risks are and what the options are they cannot craft a scope of work that meets their goals.

There are lots of modest homes in cheap markets where a whole house re-wire just is not going to fly. So, this isn't an issue where its always a simple no-brainer type decision as you made it sound like.

1) I was only referring to splicing into the current wiring, not adding separate circuit from the box. Still a bad idea though.
2) Yes, it is almost always illegally modified...because all connections have to be in a box. ALL of them. You will rarely see this with KT, it's just barely possible physically. I don't think, in thousands of experiences, I've ever seen KT terminate in a legal box and be connected to new Romex correctly.
3) Sorry you're incorrect here. The reason appliances are dropping the plug ground is that many are class 2 now, meaning double insulated. This does not relate to what we're talking about.
4) We agree! But you really shouldn't be running AC off KT anyway...but I digress...
5) I guess that's true...but I wouldn't want to take the chance.

Look, we're not talking about a ton of money here and KT is really a dangerous system at this point in it's age, there's just no two ways about it. It's not made for today's load either amperage or heat related. I would urge everyone that has it to get rid of it.

No ground conductor means that appliance is no safer on a KT circuit or a modern circuit. That was my point there and I also pointed out you can upgrade to a gfci outlet to provide protection without re-wiring which is a proper upgrade to make.

The most common place I see KT left untouched are ceilings on the first floor where it would be hard to wish new wire easily. With modern LED lights and no issue with load or heat this does not seem a high priority to me. I certainly understand why people chose to leave that circuit alone.

As for what what @Alan F. said, you have to take it with a large grain of salt because its not a good idea to blindly take advice from someone who sells a service/product. For example, every roofer will tell you to tear off not roll-over or to replace just because a roof is a certain age etc. Plus it looks like he is in an expensive California market with newer housing stock. So, he may not be familiar with the choices necessary to make good deals where the housing stock and financials are different just like I would not be familiar with the choices common in his market where housing stock and deals are very different from my market.
Nobody is saying "Just leave it, its fine", but people should understand how and why they are spending their money. Just like with a roof, it isn't a simple no-brainer choice sometimes.

With all do respect I'm not selling any service on this forum, nor have I ever. FWIW there's lots of K&T residential structures in CA. There's a very old knob and tube practice called a "California three way" (neutral leg was opened during switching) that led to many liability lawsuits, many structures still have this. There are a multitude of other reasons that K&T is no longer acceptable.
All that being said, I've witnessed loss of life and property due to the unskilled management and implementation of residential electrical systems and that has definitely affected my decisions.
I didn't suggest you were selling your services here just that as a provider its common to expect responses that aren't taking into consideration what's best for the customer's interests. Take my roofing example for instance as its practically universal for a roofer to push for a tear-off and push for a replacement when a roof hits a certain age even though those may not be the best decisions for the customer.
We should try to be as clear as possible. KT is no longer acceptable IN YOUR OPINION because technically KT is considered acceptable.
No doubt its a serious issue as are infinitely many issues! Arc-fault breakers are the new standard, are houses safer with them, of course but is someone foolish or negligent if they don't replace all their breakers with them, I don't think so.
I also didn't suggest that there were no older houses in your market, but its NOTHING like my market! In my market maybe 90% of houses are over 80 years old where the housing boom in the western states didn't begin until after world war 2 I believe. So, most houses in the west are younger than 90% of the houses in my market. Its just very different as are the economics. In an expensive market the added cost might be a nuisance where in a cheap market its a deal breaker.
Even take into account different types of building methods. Ever try to fish wires in a "plank house"? Even know what a plank house is? The sheathing of the house is the structure and each floor sits on ledger boards. Many times there is very little cavity in the wall as they are just furred out and the ledger boards at the top of each wall are solid for maybe 12" requiring a big hassle to cut to get wires between floors.
Nobody is arguing that KT should be replaced, but I think there are places where I would not chastise someone for leaving it. I would rather give them info to allow them to make an informed decision rather than just some blanket CYA type advice.
0 Reply
Caroline Gerardo
Lender · Washington DC · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
2y
This structure is 120 years old. Does it have: range hood, built in oven, dishwasher that are antiques? No those came out in the 1960's. Someone plugged in electric appliances that need more power than this was designed for, added light fixtures, and it's overloaded. How old is the HVAC? Electric running through rickety cracked frayed funky and brittle old stuff is a hazard.

It's expensive to fix. Replacement means cutting holes in the wall and creating dust. My guess is the house also has lead and asbestos. Replacement might be able to run through attic, and pulled through other ways but you do not want children, dogs, and stuff in the way. There will be no power for a day or two depending on your licensed contractor.

Plank or batten box house is same as a log house (can't conceal electric or plumbing well), I would make them safer.
2 Reply
Bruce WoodruffPro Member
Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

The most common place I see KT left untouched are ceilings on the first floor where it would be hard to wish new wire easily. With modern LED lights and no issue with load or heat this does not seem a high priority to me. I certainly understand why people chose to leave that circuit alone.

You are showing your obvious lack of knowledge with these comments. It doesn't matter if we can use GFIs and LED lights for safety. You can put GFIs and LEDs all over the house and not solve a thing. The problem with KT wiring is IN THE WIRING ITSELF. There, I underlined it for you. Having current running through these ancient wires is dangerous!
2 Reply
Bruce WoodruffPro Member
Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

This is absolute BS. Everyone on this Forum (almost) has a job in the RE industry. I've known Alan (through this Forum) for a while now and his advice is always wise, reasonable and spot on. A licensed California Electrician is at the top of the game, I've worked with many.
I'd advise to stop getting involved in issues where your knowledge is lacking....
0 Reply
Matthew Masoud
Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2014 · 363 posts · 408 votes
2y
Insurance companies don't like it. Make sure there are no surprises there.
2 Reply
Kevin Johnson
Real Estate Agent · Columbia, SC · Member since 2023 · 37 posts · 12 votes
2y
Quote from @Amer Swid:

Hello,

So, the inspection report came back with multiple hazardous flags that needs to be addressed , but the most one that it is expensive (25k cost) is the" knob and tube issues "of the electrical stuff. Its old house (1900s). Does anyone has experience with this. is it something that i need to address right away if i purchase this rental property. The original offer was 300k but then we asked for 25k off since there are other multiple things needs to be address like old furnace and stuff like that, but we asked that they take care of the hazardous flags. Now they said ok to drop 25k and we cover for everything including the hazardous flags. Should I ask for another 25k off, or should I walk away. How serious is this. The knob and tubing is in the attic and basement.

Thank you

Here is the report

Is the know and tube wiring still active? I've run across it a few times as inactive when it was already replaced... if it's still being used, it is highly likely it needs to be replaced
0 Reply
Steve K.
Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Matthew Masoud:

Insurance companies don't like it. Make sure there are no surprises there.

This. The last time I came across K&T, we couldn't find a single insurance company to write a policy on it. You can fail to disclose it, but then if there's a fire at the property the insurance company will have a great reason to deny the claim. Also if the lender (assuming you're using financing) finds out about it, they'll probably require the K&T be mitigated prior to closing. It's pretty hard to tell if it's really safe or not but you can in some cases have a master electrician certify that it is safe and sometimes insurance will accept this. But I've never seen a K&T system that would pass the test. They stopped using K&T in the 40's so any of it left in the wild is just too old to be trustworthy IME. There aren't many electricians left who know how to splice into it properly, and every time I've seen it in real life, there have been questionable modifications made to it to add circuits and things (because electricity demands have grown substantially in homes since the 40's, people want more outlets, etc. additions and remodels have been done to most homes of that vintage, usually insulation has been added around it also, creating a fire hazard if any insulation comes into contact with the K&T. It's just bad stuff anymore. The good news as a buyer is that it's a slam dunk health and safety inspection item objection. If they say know to you, good luck to them finding another buyer dumb enough not to ask for it. I'd ask the seller to have the K&T removed and have all the wiring redone to current standards. What else is going on there? Did you do a sewer scope?
4 Reply
Carlos Ptriawan
Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Amer Swid:

Hello,

So, the inspection report came back with multiple hazardous flags that needs to be addressed , but the most one that it is expensive (25k cost) is the" knob and tube issues "of the electrical stuff. Its old house (1900s). Does anyone has experience with this. is it something that i need to address right away if i purchase this rental property. The original offer was 300k but then we asked for 25k off since there are other multiple things needs to be address like old furnace and stuff like that, but we asked that they take care of the hazardous flags. Now they said ok to drop 25k and we cover for everything including the hazardous flags. Should I ask for another 25k off, or should I walk away. How serious is this. The knob and tubing is in the attic and basement.

Thank you

Here is the report

forget everything. You have to rewire. period.

Ask seller another 35k concession or just walk away.
0 Reply
Kevin Sobilo
Realtor · Hanover Twp, PA · Member since 2018 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
2y
Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

The most common place I see KT left untouched are ceilings on the first floor where it would be hard to wish new wire easily. With modern LED lights and no issue with load or heat this does not seem a high priority to me. I certainly understand why people chose to leave that circuit alone.

You are showing your obvious lack of knowledge with these comments. It doesn't matter if we can use GFIs and LED lights for safety. You can put GFIs and LEDs all over the house and not solve a thing. The problem with KT wiring is IN THE WIRING ITSELF. There, I underlined it for you. Having current running through these ancient wires is dangerous!

@Bruce Woodruff, usually you seem to know what you're talking about but in this case you really need to realize that you don't understand the issue well enough to even understand what I'm talking about.
You have come to a broad conclusion with SOME understanding of why but no ability to discuss and critically think about the issues involved.
Have a great day!

0 Reply

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.