Does buy-and-hold make any sense now?

Does buy-and-hold make any sense now?

Real Estate Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

Here's a chart that I saw today from a reliable source. It shows the total debt of households, businesses and the government. There are two things that are quite clear from the chart:

1. Total debt has increased each year even during this new "era of austerity" because we have merely transferred debt from individual families and businesses to the government, in effect making some people's problem into everybody's problem.

2. Even more striking is how little household debt has declined relative to its historical norms. I think this means that we are going to witness perhaps an entire generation of financial stress as households try to reduce expenses and increase savings.

The thing that concerns me, as an RE investor, is how this will affect various investment strategies. If people are going to be strapped for cash for decades to come, doesn't that mean that their ability to pay rent will be diminished and any evaluation of rental properties should assume declining rents instead of stable or growing rents?

And what about investors who buy SFRs thinking that the lower rent yield will be offset by asset appreciation? How will home prices appreciate when the entire economy slowly shrinks to fit a more sustainable level of debt?

Although I have been doing short-term flips until now, my long-term goal is to be a buy-and-hold investor. But the chart below is making me reconsider my plans.

I would appreciate the thoughts of other BP members on this subject.

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Landlord · Seattle, WA · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y

Vikram, There are some things that people would have trouble living with out. I'm sure people will eat. People will also need a place to stay. If they can't afford to own a home or need to be able to move quickly then that will create a bigger pool of renters.

IMO rentals will be a great place to be.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Vikram C.:


    Bryan, I think this is more true of volatile markets such as stocks and commodities - you definitely have to see things ahead of others to make an extra buck. But RE prices seem to change at a glacial pace so why not wait unti it turns before getting into buy and hold? Why do that while prices are still declining and you do not know where the bottom is?


    Because if you wait until when everyone thinks the assets are going to rise they will be bid up and won't be good investments anymore. If you wait you will also be paying more for the money to leverage the investment. Record low interest rates and a media that kicked the crud out of an asset class are good things if you are a contrarian...which generally pays off long term.

    The tax benefits alone make *some* buy and hold a no-brainer for us. Paper losses that shield income are a huge plus at our income bracket.

    I don't think there will be a better time in our lifetime to buy real estate than between now and the next few years. I also don't know where the alternative is to store value. Do you want to hold cash?...Not me. How about securities...some to be diversified. Fixed income...fuuugtaboutit. Gold?....overpriced IMO. Other commodities?

    What is your alternative store of value right now? I tend to like buying things that just got the crap kicked out of them because people have irrationally bid them south. This seems to apply very well to real estate right now.

  • Real Estate Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    16y

    Bryan, I think we have different perspectives on where RE is in the cycle. I think it is on the way down and has a long way down to go yet. Your post suggests that you think it is close to the bottom.

    I guess only time will tell which one of us is right. If I had your view on RE prices, then it would make sense to buy-and-hold right now. If you had my view on it, it would make no sense to buy at this time because your long-term return could get wiped out by capital losses. (Leverage works both ways.)

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Orange County, CA · Member since 2009 · 289 posts · 95 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Vikram C.:
    Bryan, I think we have different perspectives on where RE is in the cycle. I think it is on the way down and has a long way down to go yet. Your post suggests that you think it is close to the bottom.

    I guess only time will tell which one of us is right. If I had your view on RE prices, then it would make sense to buy-and-hold right now. If you had my view on it, it would make no sense to buy at this time because your long-term return could get wiped out by capital losses. (Leverage works both ways.)


    Vikram, both you and Bryan have great points. But, if you see the market going down further, how far can real estate drop? to 0? Barring some major catastrophe, no, I don't think so. But if you are buying for the long term (more than say 10 years) will it matter if you buy now or a few years from now? Even if the market tanks another 20 or 30 percent in the near future, I don't think that would matter much 15 or 20 years down the line.
  • Real Estate Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    16y

    Chris, I agree that it will probably drop something around 20% to 30% and not much more, at least in the areas that I am looking at. But because of leverage, that small decline is enough to put a big dent in my equity.

    For example, if I were to buy a property for $1 Million with 75% financing, and the property declines by 20% in its value, I would have lost 80% of my equity. Why not keep the cash and buy the property for 20% less after the market stabilizes?

    I understand that it is not possible to perfectly time the bottom of the market but RE moves so slowly that it should be fairly easy to buy a property well into the recovery without paying a lot more than the bottom price.

  • Investor · Rancho Cucamonga, CA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 684 votes
    16y

    Vikram - what makes you think you will be able to time the bottom?

    Price in the entry level under-75k house in Southern California are up 30-40% over 12 months ago and trending up.

    Whereas, the above $500k house is probably down 10% and trending down.

    If you can buy a property that meets the 2% rule in a good neighborhood and get decent long-term financing I would buy as many as you can.

    I know the rental market isn't great in Phoenix. Long-term people want to live there and as long as population grows houses need to get back to replacement cost.

  • Real Estate Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    16y

    Steve, I certainly don't think I can time the bottom. I just feel that buying something a year after the bottom is better than buying it a couple of years before the bottom.

    Rents are declining and vacancies rising in the Phoenix market right now and the economic data in the original post suggests that this could go on for a while longer. Why not wait until the dust settles instead of rushing into things only to watch your asset slowly depreciate?

  • Investor · Rancho Cucamonga, CA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 684 votes
    16y

    Sure, I potentially could be buying a depreciating asset. The government has done an aggressive job of setting an un-natural bottom and prolonging the downturn. What will stop them from doing it again, as things swing down again? Foreclosures, people losing their houses, RE going down is bad for elections.

    If I can buy at 65% of current value, 50% rule and 2% rule in a quality neighborhood I'm sold. I wake up with automatic equity, I self-manage, so my costs are more like 40% (a lot less so far, but I don’t have long-term accounting and my inventory is recently remodeled). Rents and market value can dip substantially before I am experiencing a negative cash-flow. Worse comes to worst, if I have to dump houses at cost to an FHA Buyer: say $60,000, 5% FHA loan, the buyer’s payment would be $300/mo with a total cost of ownership of under $500/mo with $2,000 down.

    Honestly, I would like the market to continue to drop, the more long-term properties I can accumulate at these price levels the happier I am. In the big picture, people want to live in California (and Phoenix), people want to retire in California (and Phoenix). I can see at some point the US population will stop growing (especially if we keep such a tight immigration policy), I didn’t review the report, but now until 2050 is a lot of population growth and multiple real estate cycles.

    If you don’t have decent long-term financing lined up and capital to sacrifice that could be a different conversation. Or maybe you have another avenue to achieve passive income. In the markets I know, I can achieve at least double the return on a rental single family compared to multi-families.

    Lastly, I don’t know how successful you have been or what kind of volume you have done in retail sales so far. But I think you will enjoy some of the soft benefits of having a retail and rental operation combined: depreciation, other tax benefits, economies of scale in remodeling, multiple exit strategies, volume to maintain agent relationships, etc. I know this point isn’t part of your original point. But run some numbers, they add up.

    It would be interesting to re-read this thread in 5 years.

  • Real Estate Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Steve L.:
    If I can buy at 65% of current value, 50% rule and 2% rule in a quality neighborhood I'm sold. . . . It would be interesting to re-read this thread in 5 years.


    If I had those numbers, I would buy as well! :)

    I agree that this is classic decision-making under uncertainty and each of us will come to a different conclusion about it. It is interesting to see the varying viewpoints on this subject and food for thought.

    Based on everything I have read in these responses, what I have learnt is that (a) our growing population should put a natural floor on home prices to reflect replacement cost minus depreciation and (b) if you can buy at deep discounts, you should do it because any future depreciation should be offset by the discount.

    My own decision based on all this is to perhaps continue with my flip business because it gives me returns similar to a good buy-and-hold property while keeping my cash free from any long-term committments in case the economy weakens. I also think it fits my personality well because I like the discrete profits without any long-term headaches. In a way, each flip is a separate business - you can stop it and go back to retirement or anything else at any time.

    But once I see the light at the end of the economicc tunnel, I do think that I will once again become interested in the MFD and perhaps MHP businesses.

    Thanks, all of you, for this very interesting discussion.

  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    16y

    I think the whole discussion and the color of your glasses is largely a function of where you invest and the personal risk tolerance you have because of your personal situation. We are cautiously aggressive right now. I keep track of our leverage ratios every week and mark our portfolio to market every year. As leverage ratios rise I sell some assets and rebalance. This isn't done with a day trade mentality...small tweaks work just fine.

    Our long-term goal is for our leverage ratios to drift down slowly over time so that we "get rich slowly" and have a portfolio of free and clear assets long term. This isn't optimal from a ROE standpoint, but it certainly will allow me to sleep well at night as financial freedom nears.

    My personal viewpoint is that the time to buy *some* buy-and-holds was yesterday IF they are purchased in the right locales. I don't like betting on appreciation for my return structure to work out well so I focus on buying cheap property that anyone can afford as a rental and using something close to the "45% rule" for my modeling. Depreciation, amortization, and tax benefits are 90% of my concern and appreciation is a very distant consideration. We buy distressed units in the outskirts of Austin and tertiary markets in Texas. Others buy stuff in Central Austin (or Kalifornia...gasp!) based on appreciation and are much choosier with their purchase. One strategy relies on 3/4 of the RE profit centers and a rinse and repeat strategy. The other strategy relies mainly on 1/4 of the profit centers and being choosy. Which is correct?...Neither. It depends on your goals, your downside buffer, how much time you want to spend on the business, etc.

    Whether or not buy-and-hold makes sense depends a lot of your personal investing goals so I don't think anyone can convince you exactly what is the right course of action without knowing a lot more about your personal situation.

    For me investing in real estate for the long haul certainly makes a lot more sense than *most* of the alternatives right now. Again...you should diversify some, allocate your assets conservatively, develop a plan, and execute to perfection over time. Investing is a marathon, not a sprint.

  • Landlord · Seattle, WA · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    16y

    When I buy, I want to know that it will solidly cash flow. I'm concerned about what a small decrease in rents or vacancies might have.

    Appreciation may not be good over the short term, but that is okay. Over the long haul though, I feel comfortable that RE will have a reasonable appreciation.

  • OR · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 845 votes
    16y

    Buy and hold is a long term strategy. It doesn't matter what the potential sales price of your real estate is until the moment that you want to sell. So, in buy and hold, you ride out the lows.

    If you buy right, it doesn't matter if the market goes down a bit more. If you purchased tons of instant equity, the price can drop and you will still be covered.

    The interest rate that you pay is a big consideration when you buy and hold. Right now, I am seeing fixed rate mortgages in the 4% range. Run the figures. It might be a better deal to buy now at 4% than to wait for the market to drop some more and risk ending up with a 7% mortgage.

    I suspect that buy and hold is for investors that have more time in. I can afford to let 200K sit for several years in a property. Anyone who is just starting their investing career is unlikely to be able to do that. They need to have their money and time working faster and harder for them.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with fix and flip. It is a proven strategy. It is also a good way to beef up your capital and to get yourself positioned to get into buy and hold.

    One thing about a market that is headed downward: there is very little competition for properties, and so it is possible to not only find a great deal, but to negotiate it into an even better deal.

    Once the market corrects and starts back upward, those sitting on the sidelines decide it is time to jump back in, and suddenly, there is more competition for the really great bargains.

  • Mobile Home Investor · Spanaway, WA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 578 votes
    16y

    Buy at today's low prices - hold until things get better and sell at a profit. In the meantime you have rents coming in. If market rent is 900 you offer 800 and your building will not suffer from any vacancies!

  • Full-Time Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    16y

    wow, i was off the bp wagon for just a few days, and look what this thread has grown to?!?!....

    charles, i agree with you as far as most kids that you and i know, that they don't wanna live with their parents..problem is most kids i know are your average white suburban kids....what about you? not to turn this political, but lower income families, at least from what i see, don't mind livign with their parents. in fact, the rental next door to one of mine has "kids" living there that are well older than i am. it's a cultural thing--not an american thing necessarily..something more specific. black families in the hoods are resourceful, and don't mind living together if they have to. hispanic people in lower income areas definitely do as well. something maybe more suburban whites should consider, but for some reason is more or less shunned in their culture.

    i stand by what i said earlier...i think larger SFH's for rentals is the way to go for the next few years. i saw a 4 bed/1 bath get snatched up the other day after just a few days...i thought it was a terrible rental with only one bathroom, but for a poor family in the hood, it's big enough for them, their kids and grandchildren...for what it's worth.

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