No Debt Is Freedom

No Debt Is Freedom

Real Estate Investor · Englewood, CO · Member since 2013 · 988 posts · 258 votes

No Debt Is Freedom

Consider this:

Your money working for You when you own a residential rental property investment. The tenant goes to work each day to pay you to live at your real estate investment.

However, You are working for someone else when you have debt. You work each day to accumulate money to pay off the debt. You pay extra for the use of the borrowed money. In effect, you are working for those who provided you with credit. You are paying for their new auto, fancy office, and gold watch.

Being debt is freedom.

It is fascinating how many ways having debt can be justified by some.

Do you own the real estate investment if there is a loan secured by the real estate? No. Stop making the payments to the lender and find out who really owns the real estate.

If you have credit card debt, some of your money is paid to the credit card company instead of going to family enjoyment, education, or retirement. You are working for the credit card company. The same applies to all credit. No philosophy, just a fact.

Some argue the recent recession was caused by excessive debt of all types at all levels. The root of many recent real estate foreclosures was excessive debt.

Being debt is freedom. It allows more freedom for your family and future. Add up the interest paid on all the debt each year. How much education will this buy? How much will this fund a retirement account?

Your comments and thoughts are welcomed and encouraged.

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Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
13y

Do we really need to have this debate again? This has been discussed ad nauseum on the forums. Do a simple search and you'll find proponents on both sides of the argument.

You can be a "slave" (non-free) by NOT using debt too. Not everyone starts off having a developer family with loads of money to get them started. If you don't have much capital you NEED to make it work much harder to gain the freedom espoused in the post. Thus NOT using debt would make one more of a "slave" if one is equity-constrained.

I find if fascinating how folks that start with a different set of initial conditions than most choose to preach to others about how they choose to live their lives too. Remember that everyone starts in a different place. Those that are truly dedicated and hard-working can prudently use debt to grow their capital stack and become "successful" using wealth as the sole measuring stick.

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  • SFR Investor · Watkinsville, GA · Member since 2011 · 83 posts · 33 votes
    13y

    This all depends on how you look at debt, good debt vs bad debt. It in other terms of real estate, an asset vs a liability. Lets assume we both had $100,000. The example rental homes were $100,000 to purchase. You can buy one and not make a mortgage payment. I can buy four of those homes with 25% down. So now I get the cash flow off four of them while you get slightly higher cash flow per house, I come out way ahead by using leverage. I will have much more disposable income per month than you. So in theory I can have the better lifestyle.

    So I would argue that consumer debt, liability is bad, investment debt or an income producing asset is a good thing. Hope that made sense.

  • Chris K.Pro Member
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 655 votes
    13y

    William Brace is spot on and the same applies for many things. In some cases it's actually foolish NOT to have debt. My credit card has made me waaaaayyyyy more money than what I've had to pay in interest but without that debt I wouldn't have had the opportunity to make some of that money.

    O.P.M (Other peoples money) can be very useful if you use it properly.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Greeley, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    I have made much more money off having debt than if I was debt free as well. Cash on cash returns basically quadruple when I use debt verse all cash.

    The biggest companies and richest people in the world use other people's money to get rich. There's no way they could have done it without debt.

  • Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    Tom Goans
    I couldn't agree more...
    BUT
    to get here I used a lot of leverage & in those days debt was @ 18%.

    There is nothing more satisfying than to be heavily invested & yet be completely debt free @ an early age.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    13y

    This is an age-old argument, especially in real estate circles.

    Tom's view is perfectly valid. As is the opposite view. While I think most of us would agree that over-use of leverage is a bad thing, there are lots of pros and cons for both debt-free investing and for intelligent use of leverage.

    Tom - You use the word "freedom" several times in your post. Consider that different people have different definitions of freedom. While not having debt hanging over your head is your definition of freedom, there are others who define freedom as the ability to live in a place that is far from where their investments are (like on a beach) -- in some cases, leverage allows them to do that. So, while they may not be debt-free, they still consider themselves to have freedom that wouldn't be available if not for leverage.

    Again, your point is perfectly valid. As is the opposite viewpoint.

    Remember, as long as you own real estate investments, you're never completely free of financial obligations -- taxes, insurance, repairs, capital expenses, legal, accounting -- these are just as real as mortgage payments, and in fact, will continue long after a mortgage is settled.

  • Real Estate Broker · Johns Creek, GA · Member since 2009 · 870 posts · 664 votes
    13y

    I currently have a $1 million dollar mortgage on 5 rental properties locked in for 30 years with an average rate in the low 4s. If include my primary that is another $380,000 locked in at rate of 3.375%. The way i see it is that i don't have to pay this money back for 30 years. If you have a million dollars in cash set aside and rates continue to rise in the 5% and higher you are now arbitraging the bank's money. I do believe that there will be a day again in the future where money market or 1 year CD will pay 5% or more. I also believe that 2011 is the end of the commodity rally and start of the bear market dollar rally will continue to several years. Cash is king in the next couple of years ahead.

    Great bargain buying opportunities will unfold in the stock market, real estate, corporate bonds, and precious metals.

    I am waiting for this opportunity.

  • Contractor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2013 · 767 posts · 389 votes
    13y

    I think it all depends on what the debt is and how you use it. As William said with using $100K to buy 4 homes, cashflowing more collectively than 1. But there is also 4 times the risk, risk cannot me measured accurately. What if on those homes the roof starts leaking and needs replacement and on another one a tenant moves out, trashes it and you have to spend $3000 on flooring, painting, etc... Depending on your cash situation, you might put this on a credit card or take out equity off one to pay for this, now you are further in debt. On 1 paid for house, you write a check because returns are higher on 1 rather than being higher collectively. I think a lot of times a broad stroke is painted and when they invest and think I'll use all this debt to build an empire, but don't put anything back for a rainy day roof leak. You have to be smart about it. There is a little more to it than take out a loan, rent out the house and let the tenant pay for it and I'll roll in the money. Mark also made a statement about using rich people using debt. I think they do along the way, but when they get to a certain point, they don't anymore because they have the cash. I know several multi millionaires, above $50 million and 2 billionaires. None of them use debt any longer. They use their cash to purchase something when they need it. They don't need banks and they get better deals when they can go and write a check and not have to worry about banks approval. I think that is a entirely different world than what we are discussing here. But at some point in your net worth, I think it becomes counter productive to use it anymore.

  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    Do we really need to have this debate again? This has been discussed ad nauseum on the forums. Do a simple search and you'll find proponents on both sides of the argument.

    You can be a "slave" (non-free) by NOT using debt too. Not everyone starts off having a developer family with loads of money to get them started. If you don't have much capital you NEED to make it work much harder to gain the freedom espoused in the post. Thus NOT using debt would make one more of a "slave" if one is equity-constrained.

    I find if fascinating how folks that start with a different set of initial conditions than most choose to preach to others about how they choose to live their lives too. Remember that everyone starts in a different place. Those that are truly dedicated and hard-working can prudently use debt to grow their capital stack and become "successful" using wealth as the sole measuring stick.

  • Real Estate Coach · Venice Beach, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    Not sure I'm clear on what "work" I have to do if I have debt. Other than pay the bill every month, nope, I don't do any work for anyone with my rental properties! And I make more on my money.

  • Bill B.Pro Member
    Camarillo, CA · Member since 2013 · 217 posts · 86 votes
    13y

    With utmost respect to Bryan Hancock, I applaud Tom Goans for posting this. Newbies don't know WHAT to search for in the forums. Having this debate again is most helpful for newbies.....like me. What is old hat and easy for you is terrifying to many of us. These are not easy issues and are full of risk. Newbies learn from this debate. We learn a LOT.

    My very feeble contribution is this. Yes, debt free IS freedom. Owning a performing portfolio, free and clear, that generates a comfortable living gives freedom in MANY forms. The local economy can tank so completely and far that local rents must be cut because the local economy demands that the rent be cut.

    Investors can, and DO lose properties when rents must be cut below the amount needed to service the debt. However, if the property is free and clear you would have had to have purchased in Detroit a decade or two ago to not be able to rent the property to cover taxes and expenses. (i.e. it is a VERY extreme case, BUT it IS possible....)

    Some of us must accept more risk to get started. However, we must closely, CLOSELY manage that risk. Leverage is all too frequently the Siren's song in life. I'm new to this, but I'm also in my fifties. I've seen a LOT of damage caused by leverage to people who did NOT understand, and therefore, did not closely control that leverage. So, again, I must thank Tom for prompting this discussion. Us newbies need it.

  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    Fair enough Bill B.

    Forgive my truculent comments, but these threads are generally quite loaded and sometimes condescending. To imply that carrying assets with debt is the equivalent of slavery is really quite ridiculous. Almost every fortune 500 company carries debt in the form of bonds. I'd have to go look through the list, but I would be willing to bet that in excess of 95% of them carry debt. Why? Because it just flat-out makes sense. Debt generally means a lower cost of capital and thus the ability to compete.

    For every investor that carries zero debt there and tens or possibly hundreds of others that PREFER to carry debt because they realize that single-digit yields afforded by most real estate doesn't make a whole lot of sense relative to other asset classes without the ability to leverage. Calling those in-the-know and rational self-maximizers less-than-free is insulting to a degree.

    Again, if you're one of the fortunate few that are bequeath heaps of money I can understand avoiding debt altogether. Your mission is life may be to protect the wealth you already have and nobody should fault you for it. However, one should not discourage other well-informed investors from using debt as a tool to grow their wealth as long as it is done prudently.

  • Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y

    Bryan Hancock

    Wasn't born with a silver spoon, not even a plastic one, and 800 properties later I've had millions of debt. I never lost any sleep over it; even when I had mortgages at 15% fixed for 30 years.

    But there was time Tom Goans, where it did seem that a sizeable amount of the work was going to pay Mr. Banker. There's a current thread here at BP, where the OP asks how to make $25,000 a month. One answer might be to pay off mortgages where the payments are $25,000 a month. Paying off 95% of those mortgages sure felt good and I'm still sleeping good at night. I would caveat it by saying that with today's interest rates, if you wanted to load up on some cheap money, now would be that time.

  • Bill B.Pro Member
    Camarillo, CA · Member since 2013 · 217 posts · 86 votes
    13y

    Bryan Hancock There is no need to apologize. With your experience, I can fully understand having to see the same issues again, and again, and again, would be quite frustrating. Kind of like a rock star having to be UP and READY in the next city in eighteen hours to do it all again...... Thanks for your input and taking the time to help out those of us who are late to the game. I agree with what you wrote. The key term is "prudently". I would insert the term "very" just before "prudently" for us "what the heck do I think I'm doing here" newbies.

    David Krulac it is all about personal circumstance and, even more importantly, how debt is managed. And as you state, at some point, debt can become unnecessary.

  • Real Estate Investor · Englewood, CO · Member since 2013 · 988 posts · 258 votes
    13y

    Be Prepared. I was a Boy Scout and feel this is a very good life-long motto.

    Be prepared for the what ifs.

    Almost 50 years of experience and observation has taught me the number of ways to avoid debt when being involved in real estate investments is limited only by one's mind.

    Borrowing money is only one method to become involved in a real estate investment.

    Justifying debt or a loan does not make them the best idea or method. Consider the limitless alternatives.

    Less debt makes you a more power investor.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Tom Goans:

    Justifying debt or a loan does not make them the best idea or method. Consider the limitless alternatives.

    Just like justifying no debt does not make it a better idea or method.

    Oversimplification just means you don't have a full grasp of the subject matter.


    Less debt makes you a more power investor.

    Completely disagree. One has nothing to do with the other.

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    Tom Goans You seem to be on a crusade here. I admire your conviction while disagreeing with every premise, none more so than the following:

    Debt is what allows the little guy get in the game! Rather than having the entire pie of nothingness isn't it better to have a small slice of a great thing?

    I could go on for 3 pages - I won't. Debt is an amplifier to our decision-making process. Good decisions get amplified, so do the bad ones Tom. I was the little guy. Not as little any more but still rather little...

  • Real Estate Investor · Englewood, CO · Member since 2013 · 988 posts · 258 votes
    13y

    Consider the alternatives and options. They may provide a better way to grow from a beginner with little money to having enduring success.

    Ben, I am on a crusade to encourage opening up the mind to the limitless possibilities.

    Since the 1970s, there is a real estate market correction every 10 years. Each one is more dramatic than the previous one.

    I have learned and survived each one. This includes the days of 21 percent interest rates and extremely high inflation.

    If you do not learn from history, it will repeat itself, as it has repeatedly since the 1970s.

    Ben, I am not suggesting your borrowing method is not one consideration, I am just suggesting to open the mind to more possibilities.

  • Lexington, KY · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    This argument is like many others, two sides, each with pros and cons, yet some people are determined to say one is absolutely better...one is not. You will find highly successful people who have taken on boatloads of debt, and you will find successful people who have zero debt, it is not debt alone that will define success.

    There are people who have survived real estate just as long as Tom who have debt...there is no definitive answer here. I tend to think the best method is somewhere in the middle (using debt as a tool but being very aware and careful in how I use it), but I understand other people will see things differently.

  • Real Estate Agent · Virginia Beach, VA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    For me, less debt would mean less freedom. Definitely could not have purchased our first investment property without a loan. I was taught from a young age working in a family business how essential it is to use credit correctly. Had we waited until we had cash saved to buy that property, we would have paid twice as much for it (tripled during the boom, still worth over double what we paid). Had we not bought the next 2 back then also using loans (much lower down payments required back then, or we couldn't have done that, either), we could not have sold them when prices rose. We put both children through college off the profits from selling a house that we could not have purchased without a loan. Without using debt, we'd most likely still be trying to purchase our first property after struggling to pay college tuition. Instead, both our children have college degrees with no student loan debt to weigh them down, and we're slowly building our real estate portfolio back up (using debt).

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Tom Goans:

    Ben, I am on a crusade to encourage opening up the mind to the limitless possibilities.

    And you believe the best way to do this is to take one of those options off the table?

    If your goal is to provide more options, the best way to do that isn't to crusade against one option; the best way is to discuss those other options that seemingly nobody is considering.

    How about starting threads on these other options? Perhaps discuss them here?

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Greeley, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    Tom Goans, I think the reason people get a little put off by your posts is you state your opinions as facts and leave no room for other methods. When I first found this forum, I thought I knew most everything about residential Real Estate. I found out really quickly, that I knew a lot about a very small portion of residential Real Estate.

    I have learned a ton from this website and hopefully I have taught some people a few things as well. One thing I know is my way is not the best way for everyone. I can give my opinion on what I think is best for my situation or someone in a similar situation, but it's only an opinion.

    With state laws different in every state and constantly changing it is impossible for one person to know it all. I appreciate your opinion you bring to the table, but at times I think it rubs people the wrong way because it is stated as a fact without much info to back it up. To give an example, you keep stating people need to open their mind to more possibilities when thinking of debt. What are those possibilities? What are other ways for people to start investing without debt? Partnerships, REITs, wholesaling, saving up cash? All those methods can be great for some and not so great for others.

    I personally invest in Real Estate because I am young and want to become rich. I think Real Estate has the best returns possible, besides starting my own businesses(which I am also work on). In order to become rich, I can't save up all my cash to buy a property, or split my profits with a partner or rely on REITs and someone else to manage my investments.

    The secret to business in my opinion is finding a way to make big ROI and then duplicating that process over and over however possible. Fix and flippers can't do high volume without leverage, long-term buy and holds can't buy a lot of property without leverage. Of course there are exceptions to this, like if someone has a ton of cash already, but we are talking about beginning investors without a ton of cash. If you have 50 million in the bank it doesn't make sense to borrow money to buy most Real Estate. The people with 50 million probably used debt to get that 50 million.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Greeley, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    J Scott
    Exactly what my post was about as well, but I went off on a tangent.

  • Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y

    Lynn M. and others.

    One consideration is where you are in your real estate investing career. The first 5 properties that I bought were all more or less 100% financed in manner. (Chapter 8).

    But now 800 properties later, I can't remember the last time I used 100% financing. It is more likely that I'll be using 100% no financing that I'll use 100% financing.

    And what has worked for me may not work for you or may not be the path you want to take. But as your REI career progresses it becomes easier to not finance properties.

    Its a lot easier putting in all cash offers, no contingencies and short settlement period, and the settlements are so much quicker when you don't have to sign a 100 pieces of paper from the lender. And it also increases your cash flow when you don't have to pay interest. And I think that therefore it decreases the number of properties that you need to own to maintain a certain cash flow level. Instead of $100 a door, you could be getting $500 a door or even as much as $2,000 a door. (Chapter 32)

  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y

    Certainly this is a personal preference/outlook thing but I think this argument gets tossed around under bad pretenses with improper assumptions. Tom mentions the possibilities are endless with no debt, I am not sure I agree nor even understand what a long list of alternates look like. I tend to think the list is extremely short if we truly compare apples to apples. I would like to know some of the items on this list. Remember, that using any type of seller finance, is debt. So I don't agree there is a limitless number of ways to buy a property if you don't have the capital.

    To me this is simple:

    1. Investor either has or does not have enough capital to purchase 100% of subject property.

    a) If investor has total cash to afford purchase, the investor has an option to take on debt or be debt free.

    b) Investor does not have 100% of the capital needed. In this case, unless 100% is raised, there is no transaction. How then is the money raised? Well in form of debt or equity.

    2. The core issues still stems from the cost of said debt. Does the debt cost more, less or the same as equity? Well typically debt is cheaper. Today's prevailing rate is around 5%. You will struggle to find an equity investor willing to only take 5% for real estate investments. Equity will cost 8% or more. Equity also is usually a percent of the net income, which means increases in net income create increases in proportion to the investment. Debt does not ride on the back of the net income. So with debt, increases in net income, mean increases in bottom line.

    3. Since we attempted to look into the future, let us also do that with debt. As interest starts to rise again, so will return demands on equity for investors. Today's acceptable equity returns at 8% will rise as interest rates rise. In the event, I go out and get a loan right now for 5% interest, 10 years from now, if prevailing rates are at 8% interest, I am hitting a homerun. I have outrun the cost of debt, by getting cheaper money when it was around.

    In step with this idea, now is the greatest time ever to actually take some debt on so as rates rise, you lock in at the bottom.

    4. The lack of combining debt with equity puts all the pressure on the equity return. And this argument, when posed in the other couple of threads seem to ignore the question, what is the cost of equity. I think this is an important question to address and has two ideas that go with it:

    a) Either you have 100% of the capital or you don't.

    b) If you have 100% of the capital, then you clearly do not need to raise more equity. You then create your own opinion on what level of equity return you desire and whether that is acceptable. Since this is a personal idea, we need to bring it back to reality a little bit with a comparison of other investments and returns. Certainly the investor who uses 100% of their own capital can ride the return to zero. However, in a market where returns are pushing say 10%, the investor starts loosing out on opportunity where the same capital can be making a better return. So while personal choice will allow the investor to ride to zero the realty is not a competitive advantage if we put a rule on that investor equity that must match the prevailing return on equity.

    Another misstated line from above, "Do you own the real estate investment if there is a loan secured by the real estate?"
    - Tom answered, "No"

    - Tom, while I understand the point you are trying to make, you know the above statement and answer couldn't be farther from the truth. If I buy a property with a loan, I own the property not the bank. Does that bank have an interest in the property? Yes. But that is not the same or even close to the same as owning the property. A bank can not use the property the same way I can. A bank can not freely enter the property as I can. The enforcement of the security instrument and note for the loan can result in a foreclosure auction, where the bank still does not own the property but causes the property to be sold. The bank can not do this unilaterally. I as the real owner can sell the property (provided it pays the lien) to whoever I want. I can wake up one morning and paint the house pink with polka dots. Clearly, that statement is a massive misnomer and is really simply false.

    Another point, the crisis didn't happen because of debt. Please stop kidding yourself that what the media tell us we should believe. The crisis happened because borrowers felt they no longer had to live up to their obligations, which meant paying the loan back. The crisis was not caused by putting the money out in loans, the crisis was caused by the money not coming back in as payments for the loans that were made. The root of many of the foreclosures were the borrowers not making payments not a thing which does not act nor causes action.

    In step with the idea of defining the cost of equity is also the idea of growing the overall equity. If I invest 100%, my growth rate is limited the free cash flow. Against a property that cash flows, the growth rate of leveraged equity far out runs the unleveraged. If the property is $100k, the equity guy needs to make the next $100k from the property which could take years. With debt, the amount of equity as entry is far less. If debt services takes place, not only do I have a lower barrier of entry, but I can stand to earn more equity over time. The same $100k affords me 5 properties, which as payments are made across the portfolio will earn more equity faster than only equity.

    I agree, this is a conversation of preference. I am still interested to hear what infinite options there are to debt.

  • Real Estate Investor · Englewood, CO · Member since 2013 · 988 posts · 258 votes
    13y

    It is all right to disagree with my viewpoint. However, is it counter productive to condemn the messenger or the opinions?

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